British Rail ticketing before Oyster PAYG

[miklcct]

How did ticketing work on British Rail before the existence of Oyster PAYG in the 1990s or earlier? Were single tickets from ticket machines the majority of tickets sold?

For example, back then, how would one buy tickets to travel, for example, from Brondesbury to Hackney Central, then London Fields to Liverpool Street changing to the tube to Tottenham Court Road, and finally Tottenham Court Road to Kentish Town on the tube to change for a British Rail service back to Cricklewood? Would one buy a Travelcard from a ticket machine in those era?

What was the typical way to pay if only making only 2 to 3 journeys? For example, Brondesbury to Gospel Oak, then Kentish Town to Cricklewood, and no more for the day? Was it single tickets from ticket machine? Did long queues at ticket machines commonplace in those era?

 

[Joe Paxton]

How did ticketing work on British Rail before the existence of Oyster PAYG in the 1990s or earlier? Were single tickets from ticket machines the majority of tickets sold?

Worth noting that Oyster PAYG only went live across the whole National Rail network in London in January 2010, some years after it was introduced on TfL's own services (Underground, DLR, buses, trams) - though some NR routes adopted Oyster PAYG earlier.

For example, back then, how would one buy tickets to travel, for example, from Brondesbury to Hackney Central, then London Fields to Liverpool Street changing to the tube to Tottenham Court Road, and finally Tottenham Court Road to Kentish Town on the tube to change for a British Rail service back to Cricklewood? Would one buy a Travelcard from a ticket machine in those era?

Yes - or buy from a ticket office or indeed a newsagents / corner shop (what were then called Pass Agents and are now called Oyster Ticket Stops.)

What was the typical way to pay if only making only 2 to 3 journeys? For example, Brondesbury to Gospel Oak, then Kentish Town to Cricklewood, and no more for the day? Was it single tickets from ticket machine? Did long queues at ticket machines commonplace in those era?

Ideally you'd make an assessment about whether a Day Travelcard would be worthwhile before setting off on your day's travels. For the examples you give then people would likely just buy single tickets (...though a fair few wouldn't have bought a ticket at all - and indeed sometimes buying a ticket just wasn't possible, if that was the case you were supposed to get a Permit to Travel).

Worth bearing in mind that suburban rail services in London were less well patronised and less frequent in times past. For instance the North London Line is radically different in terms of passenger numbers today than say the 1980's and 90's.

 

[Bald Rick]

To add to the previous answer - many people in London making these sorts of journeys had a travelcard anyway for work. So you just used that. When you already have a travel card, the incentive to use public transport for non work journeys is much higher - as it is essentially free at point of use.

 

[Joe Paxton]

To add to the previous answer - many people in London making these sorts of journeys had a travelcard anyway for work. So you just used that. When you already have a travel card, the incentive to use public transport for non work journeys is much higher - as it is essentially free at point of use.

Absolutely.

The issue could be remembering to buy an extension if you were travelling out of the zones covered by your season Travelcard before commencing the journey - I knew someone who was hopeless at remembering to do so, and racked up a fair few Penalty Fares at say Heathrow or East Croydon!

The Travelcard - and a bit later the Capitalcard - were pretty revolutionary ticketing innovations of the 1980's.

 

[miklcct]

To add to the previous answer - many people in London making these sorts of journeys had a travelcard anyway for work. So you just used that. When you already have a travel card, the incentive to use public transport for non work journeys is much higher - as it is essentially free at point of use.

Back then were Travelcard season tickets good value for work commute? Now they are generally poor value if the commute only consists of one leg, for example, a tube only or a rail only commute compared to PAYG or point-to-point season tickets.

 

[StephenHunter]

Worth bearing in mind that suburban rail services in London were less well patronised and less frequent in times past. For instance the North London Line is radically different in terms of passenger numbers today than say the 1980's and 90's.

The GOBLIN was still using slam doors back then. As were a lot of other services.

 

[stuu]

Back then were Travelcard season tickets good value for work commute? Now they are generally poor value if the commute only consists of one leg, for example, a tube only or a rail only commute compared to PAYG or point-to-point season tickets.

They were better value than using PAYG, weekly capping for PAYG is only a few years old. Before that the difference could be substantial, and with a weekly or longer ticket the weekends are effectively free, which with daily capping they weren't

 

[DelW]

Travelcards were only introduced in the early 1980s - I can remember buying my first one at Borough, a colourful pre-printed card numbered something like 0000019 (I think I still have it somewhere*). The excitement of being able to travel around all day on tubes and buses without having to pay again!

Prior to their introduction, almost all tube and bus travel was single tickets, one per journey. Tube stations had ranks of ticket machines, each issuing a single value, with a list of the stations each was valid to on the sloping top of the machine.

In the late 1950s or early 60s, my family were staying with my grandparents, long term Londoners, and we went from Finsbury Park to Kew Gardens for the day. Coming home, for some reason we caught a North London line train instead of the tube, and were given a dressing-down by a ticket inspector for using LT tickets on a BR service. My grandmother gave as good as she got, and as far as I recall, we didn't pay extra, or have to get off the train.

In the late 1980s, I lived in Camden Town, and usage of the North London line was very low - dusty 2-car units (EPBs? HAPs?) with hardly a soul on them in the daytime.

(*edit - I knew I'd still have it)

 

[Taunton]

How did ticketing work on British Rail before the existence of Oyster PAYG in the 1990s or earlier? Were single tickets from ticket machines the majority of tickets sold?

For example, back then, how would one buy tickets to travel, for example, from Brondesbury to Hackney Central, then London Fields to Liverpool Street changing to the tube to Tottenham Court Road, and finally Tottenham Court Road to Kentish Town on the tube to change for a British Rail service back to Cricklewood? Would one buy a Travelcard from a ticket machine in those era?

What was the typical way to pay if only making only 2 to 3 journeys? For example, Brondesbury to Gospel Oak, then Kentish Town to Cricklewood, and no more for the day? Was it single tickets from ticket machine? Did long queues at ticket machines commonplace in those era?

There were some surprising combinations. Around 1980 I used to use Southfields, which although on the District Line branch to Wimbledon was actually a BR station - fully. BR signs, BR staff, BR ticketing, just no BR trains. A journey to anywhere on the Underground outside the centre of London would often require a paper, hand-written ticket! It was also plagued with the ticket office being closed, particularly outside weekday mornings. This was a real challenge if you wanted a One Day Travelcard (from 1984 I think), which the "pay cash to ticket collector at exit" approach had no means to sell.

 

[alistairlees]

Travelcards were only introduced in the early 1980s - I can remember buying my first one at Borough, a colourful pre-printed card numbered something like 0000019 (I think I still have it somewhere*). The excitement of being able to travel around all day on tubes and buses without having to pay again!

Prior to their introduction, almost all tube and bus travel was single tickets, one per journey. Tube stations had ranks of ticket machines, each issuing a single value, with a list of the stations each was valid to on the sloping top of the machine.

In the late 1950s or early 60s, my family were staying with my grandparents, long term Londoners, and we went from Finsbury Park to Kew Gardens for the day. Coming home, for some reason we caught a North London line train instead of the tube, and were given a dressing-down by a ticket inspector for using LT tickets on a BR service. My grandmother gave as good as she got, and as far as I recall, we didn't pay extra, or have to get off the train.

In the late 1980s, I lived in Camden Town, and usage of the North London line was very low - dusty 2-car units (EPBs? HAPs?) with hardly a soul on them in the daytime.

(*edit - I knew I'd still have it)

View attachment 130469

great picture!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

As suggested above pre Travelcards people seemed to travel less. Yes, there were more ticket offices, but the tube to train or reverse journeys were horribly unconnected. The queue of people at Victoria for underground tickets was horrible and put people like my mother off travelling to London destinations which weren’t close to Victoria or Charing Cross (especially as she never really got the hang of central London buses).

Travelcards revolutionised her journeys to London and I’m sure contributed to the increase in passenger numbers in the 1990s.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Underground ticket machines https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/440367669808434746/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2023 ==

BR stations would issue "Edmonson" tickets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmondson_railway_ticket
I well remember in the 70s buying ticket at a London Underground ticket office to a BR station, and it would also be issued in Edmonson format.

 

[mike57]

I travelled around London when growing up there as a youngster in the late 60s and early 70s, and if your travel involved BR and LT more often than not you would need two tickets. I had two BR and two LT underground stations within easy walking distance, and the choice was often on the basis on which was easier ticket wise, for example to buy a ticket from Clapham South to Oxford Circus was easier rather than Wandsworth Common to Victoria, change, buy ticket after joining a long queue, carry on by tube. Some through tickets were available, but they seemed pretty limited. Buses were easier as this was in the days of conductors so you just paid on board.

I left London in 1980, so never benefited from travelcards, but ticket office queues at Underground stations in the central area were always long and slow.

BR journeys were still Edmundson tickets, popular destinations were pre printed, but if you were travelling to a little used destination then the ticket would be hand written after the booking office clerk consulted a fares manual. Just after starting work in 1973 I had to visit Blackwater on the Reading Guildford line weekly for a few weeks, and each time the booking clerk would hand write the ticket, with route, 'via Wokingham'.

 

[Irascible]

Travelcard, was a monthy ritual getting a new one for me. Even for visitors, just bought a daily card.

 

[Class800]

Worth noting that Oyster PAYG only went live across the whole National Rail network in London in January 2010, some years after it was introduced on TfL's own services (Underground, DLR, buses, trams) - though some NR routes adopted Oyster PAYG earlier.




Yes - or buy from a ticket office or indeed a newsagents / corner shop (what were then called Pass Agents and are now called Oyster Ticket Stops.)




Ideally you'd make an assessment about whether a Day Travelcard would be worthwhile before setting off on your day's travels. For the examples you give then people would likely just buy single tickets (...though a fair few wouldn't have bought a ticket at all - and indeed sometimes buying a ticket just wasn't possible, if that was the case you were supposed to get a Permit to Travel).

Worth bearing in mind that suburban rail services in London were less well patronised and less frequent in times past. For instance the North London Line is radically different in terms of passenger numbers today than say the 1980's and 90's.

When I was young (mid 90s), we would go down to the corner shop and get 2 day travelcards - one adult and one child - for my dad and I go go on a day out. We did this fairly frequently. If we were literally just going to Trafalgar Square, we might get a return to Charing Cross (I don't recall it being London Terminals in those days), but usually we'd get the travelcards as not much more and gave more spontaneity

 

[Surreytraveller]

When I was young (mid 90s), we would go down to the corner shop and get 2 day travelcards - one adult and one child - for my dad and I go go on a day out. We did this fairly frequently. If we were literally just going to Trafalgar Square, we might get a return to Charing Cross (I don't recall it being London Terminals in those days), but usually we'd get the travelcards as not much more and gave more spontaneity

Was London British Rail in those days, rather than London Terminals

 

[PeterC]

I travelled around London when growing up there as a youngster in the late 60s and early 70s, and if your travel involved BR and LT more often than not you would need two tickets. I had two BR and two LT underground stations within easy walking distance, and the choice was often on the basis on which was easier ticket wise, for example to buy a ticket from Clapham South to Oxford Circus was easier rather than Wandsworth Common to Victoria, change, buy ticket after joining a long queue, carry on by tube. Some through tickets were available, but they seemed pretty limited. Buses were easier as this was in the days of conductors so you just paid on board.

I left London in 1980, so never benefited from travelcards, but ticket office queues at Underground stations in the central area were always long and slow.

BR journeys were still Edmundson tickets, popular destinations were pre printed, but if you were travelling to a little used destination then the ticket would be hand written after the booking office clerk consulted a fares manual. Just after starting work in 1973 I had to visit Blackwater on the Reading Guildford line weekly for a few weeks, and each time the booking clerk would hand write the ticket, with route, 'via Wokingham'.

When I started using the tain to travel to school from Romford in 62 there was a poster with through fares to all Underground stations including Mill Hill (The Hale). I wasted a lot of time trying to find it on the Tube map.

 

[Irascible]

When did travelcards come in? presumably the same time as fare zones? I can remember being bought them as a kid although not entirely sure when ( and I can remember red Circle line trains. just! ) so it must be quite a while ago now, just not sure if it was the 70s or 80s.

 

[Snow1964]

When did travelcards come in? presumably the same time as fare zones? I can remember being bought them as a kid although not entirely sure when ( and I can remember red Circle line trains. just! ) so it must be quite a while ago now, just not sure if it was the 70s or 80s.

The fare zones were originally different, there was a West Central London and an East Central that overlapped (what is now zone 1) so couldn't travel from City to West End as cheapest zone

Then were zone 2 (much as now), but exact boundaries were different, with an outer zone 3 (divided into 3a, 3b, 3c). 3a and 3b became zones 3 and 4

zone 3c became zone 5, but was later split into 5&6

You had to have correct zones on buses too, couldn't use a zone 3 pass in zone 1 etc. I am sure zone 1 tickets were higher priced than other zones.

 

[urbophile]

There were some surprising combinations. Around 1980 I used to use Southfields, which although on the District Line branch to Wimbledon was actually a BR station - fully. BR signs, BR staff, BR ticketing, just no BR trains. A journey to anywhere on the Underground outside the centre of London would often require a paper, hand-written ticket! It was also plagued with the ticket office being closed, particularly outside weekday mornings. This was a real challenge if you wanted a One Day Travelcard (from 1984 I think), which the "pay cash to ticket collector at exit" approach had no means to sell.

Southfields was my station too, in the 1990s. It was possible to buy a through ticket to Liverpool (Lime Street, not Liverpool Street) which thrilled me no end!

 

[Irascible]

The fare zones were originally different, there was a West Central London and an East Central that overlapped (what is now zone 1) so couldn't travel from City to West End as cheapest zone

Then were zone 2 (much as now), but exact boundaries were different, with an outer zone 3 (divided into 3a, 3b, 3c). 3a and 3b became zones 3 and 4

zone 3c became zone 5, but was later split into 5&6

You had to have correct zones on buses too, couldn't use a zone 3 pass in zone 1 etc. I am sure zone 1 tickets were higher priced than other zones.

I can remember 1-3 cards as a little'n, and I think 6 might have appeared when I was living there, but I guess west & east zones might be a little before me being old enough to notice. The idea of cards that only covered specific zones ( like 2+3 ) does ring bells, but as I always needed zone 1 on mine I'd never have got one & so I don't know if I'm making it up!

 

[Snow1964]

I have found image in a book of a leaflet

Shows West End zone as bright yellow, City Zone as blue (royal blue?) with a yellow and blue striped overlap. Says Starts Oct 4th. (year not shown but think it was 1981).

Front of leaflet says : Any journey in West End or City zone 20p, Any through journey both zones 30p

Zone 2 was light green (more like lime green, not current pastel shade), zone 3 (3a, 3b, 3c) orange

 

[Surreytraveller]

When did travelcards come in? presumably the same time as fare zones? I can remember being bought them as a kid although not entirely sure when ( and I can remember red Circle line trains. just! ) so it must be quite a while ago now, just not sure if it was the 70s or 80s.

Capitalcards (the original name for the Travelcard) came into being in about the mid 80s.
Travelcards were a different product that only allowed travel on LT services

 

[Dr Hoo]

To answer the OP’s question directly, yes, in the ‘old days’ you literally did walk up to each station and go to the ticket office (or machine), buy a single, show it at the barrier, get off at the end of the trip, surrender it at another barrier and repeat for subsequent legs. All cash (loose change) for short trips in those days.

 

[Springs Branch]

When did travelcards come in? presumably the same time as fare zones? I can remember being bought them as a kid although not entirely sure when . . .

I have found image in a book of a leaflet

Shows West End zone as bright yellow, City Zone as blue (royal blue?) with a yellow and blue striped overlap. Says Starts Oct 4th. (year not shown but think it was 1981).

Front of leaflet says : Any journey in West End or City zone 20p, Any through journey both zones 30p

Was the first appearance of "Zones" with those 20p and 30p fares somehow wrapped up in Ken Livingstone's "Fares Fair" malarkey around 1981, or did the concept pre-date it?

I used to visit London regularly back then and, time permitting, preferred travelling on top decks of Routemasters rather than the Tube, just to enjoy the view. On buses prior to Fares Fair, you never really knew what the fare was going to be until after you'd boarded and the conductor came round, and if taking a long "scenic route" and using two buses, you had to buy separate tickets on each. I remember that nice Mr Livingstone made my central London joyrides usefully cheaper.

The Tories promptly did away with the Fares Fair scheme by somehow declaring it "illegal", but maybe the Zones concept survived and persisted afterwards?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Was the first appearance of "Zones" with those 20p and 30p fares somehow wrapped up in Ken Livingstone's "Fares Fair" malarkey around 1981, or did the concept pre-date it?
[...]

The concept of the 'Zones' in London have their origin in that scheme, yes.

 

[Ken H]

Anyone remember the wall mounted ticket machines. There was the tenfare. 10 big buttons for popular fares.
And another monster with a button for each station and ticket type buttons.
Took cash and issued mag stripe credit card size tickets. Every station had at least one of each type.
They were quote good i think.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Tories promptly did away with the Fares Fair scheme by somehow declaring it "illegal", but maybe the Zones concept survived and persisted afterwards?

IIRC one of the London Boroughs (or maybe more) that were Tory controlled took the scheme to court on the basis that their ratepayers were paying into it / subsidising it, but had commensurately low services, esp tubes, for their citizens to benefit from and thus the scheme should be declared illegal. I think the case was heard by Lord Denning who agreed with this and thus it was ruled illegal - in a ruling that was seen as a highly 'political' judgment at the time - well in the media I read then anyway (mind you everything in the 1980s seemed 'highly political' )

 

[jfollows]

The fare zones were originally different, there was a West Central London and an East Central that overlapped (what is now zone 1) so couldn't travel from City to West End as cheapest zone

I remember this well - I was a student in London from 1981 to 1984 so I benefitted from the fare reductions. In the 1982-83 year I had a season ticket from Ravenscourt Park to the West Central zone, paid for by my local council, and I sometimes had rehearsals in places towards the east, so I recall walking from Temple to save having to pay for the extra distance no longer covered by my season ticket.

 

[StephenHunter]

IIRC one of the London Boroughs (or maybe more) that were Tory controlled took the scheme to court on the basis that their ratepayers were paying into it / subsidising it, but had commensurately low services, esp tubes, for their citizens to benefit from and thus the scheme should be declared illegal. I think the case was heard by Lord Denning who agreed with this and thus it was ruled illegal - in a ruling that was seen as a highly 'political' judgment at the time - well in the media I read then anyway (mind you everything in the 1980s seemed 'highly political' )

I have a map from 1984, I don't think the Epping Forest area was initially included in the zones. It wasn't on that one.