Brighton line Blockade

[Robertj21a]

I was on these buses last Sunday and was mostly impressed. As I left three bridges station building around 18:30 I could see a queue of about 100 people for the Brighton buses. Half of those had been directed to a bus by the time I'd walked to the gazebos and the rest of us were filing onto a second bus a couple of minutes later. There was plenty of free water and being a direct bus to Brighton the delay wasn't too bad (much better than RRB services on coastway west which take ages visiting all the tiny stations)

Once I got too Brighton it was a bit of a mess though. There just isn't enough space out the back for the number of buses. They need somewhere to send the empty buses while they wait.

As you probably know, there really is nowhere else for those buses to go anywhere near the station. The whole area is always busy and near capacity.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Haven't read all the posts but there was a comment early on about why dont the TOC liase with NR on when it is done.

A prime example of this has been the last few years the service out of Liverpool Street has been cancelled due to 'works' and by some magic coincidence 9/10 this was always on a weekend Spurs were at home!!

It seems that these works are arranged years in advance according to someone i spoke to at NR once. Surely once games have been announced these could be re arranged, esp with the games later in the season .but they get two months notice anyway on the fixtures ayway so they cannot say we didnt know

When this happened, it was chaos when 36k left, this year that is going to be 62k. It is no damn good building nice new stations and new lines ( the 3rd rail from Angel Road southwards). when the line cannot be used on the days it is most needed

The other observation form the University of the bleeding obvious, is why dont the southbound Stansteds stop at Park after the match. They do on the northbound beforehand , and it isnt like these are wedged each trip, but as i have been told in here rather sarcastically IIRC that the trains are not run for the public!!!

THis isnt a gripe as as such, just an observation from someone who tries to do joined up thinking. Tin hat on waiting for the 100000001 reasons
why it cannot/will not be done, but please take off your NR/TOC hat and try and see it from the other side of the fence.

 

[The Planner]

Haven't read all the posts but there was a comment early on about why dont the TOC liase with NR on when it is done.

A prime example of this has been the last few years the service out of Liverpool Street has been cancelled due to 'works' and by some magic coincidence 9/10 this was always on a weekend Spurs were at home!!

It seems that these works are arranged years in advance according to someone i spoke to at NR once. Surely once games have been announced these could be re arranged, esp with the games later in the season .but they get two months notice anyway on the fixtures ayway so they cannot say we didnt know

They are agreed years in advance, the Engineering Access Statement for 2020 comes out in October and there are discussions going on with operators now for that period. The operators are fully involved with the process. So is your suggestion that we should unravel a national plan (ie: works not conflicting with other and having resources in place which may not be available at another time) because of a fixture list that isn't released until 2 months before the season starts when the STP timetable process (ignoring the issues now) offers back 3 months out?

 

[Robertj21a]

Haven't read all the posts but there was a comment early on about why dont the TOC liase with NR on when it is done.

A prime example of this has been the last few years the service out of Liverpool Street has been cancelled due to 'works' and by some magic coincidence 9/10 this was always on a weekend Spurs were at home!!

It seems that these works are arranged years in advance according to someone i spoke to at NR once. Surely once games have been announced these could be re arranged, esp with the games later in the season .but they get two months notice anyway on the fixtures ayway so they cannot say we didnt know

When this happened, it was chaos when 36k left, this year that is going to be 62k. It is no damn good building nice new stations and new lines ( the 3rd rail from Angel Road southwards). when the line cannot be used on the days it is most needed

The other observation form the University of the bleeding obvious, is why dont the southbound Stansteds stop at Park after the match. They do on the northbound beforehand , and it isnt like these are wedged each trip, but as i have been told in here rather sarcastically IIRC that the trains are not run for the public!!!

THis isnt a gripe as as such, just an observation from someone who tries to do joined up thinking. Tin hat on waiting for the 100000001 reasons
why it cannot/will not be done, but please take off your NR/TOC hat and try and see it from the other side of the fence.

Perhaps real life doesn't revolve around football.....

 

[thelem]

As you probably know, there really is nowhere else for those buses to go anywhere near the station. The whole area is always busy and near capacity.

If they tried hard enough I'm sure they could find somewhere in the car park (accessed from the pick up point, because main car park entrance wouldn't be high enough). Or the far end of stroudly road outside the language school.

The buses were backed up onto fleet Street so causing wider disruption to traffic flow in the city.

 

[Class 170101]

They are agreed years in advance, the Engineering Access Statement for 2020 comes out in October and there are discussions going on with operators now for that period. The operators are fully involved with the process. So is your suggestion that we should unravel a national plan (ie: works not conflicting with other and having resources in place which may not be available at another time) because of a fixture list that isn't released until 2 months before the season starts when the STP timetable process (ignoring the issues now) offers back 3 months out?

Whilst individual football matches aren't planed well in advance the windows of opportunity I believe are. So for example NR will know when Wembley could be used by England for football so bloxks should be (and I believe usually are) avoided in this area. So in the Tottenham example above its the exact opposite. Block the line because there won't be any matches there.

In terms of Seaside resorts including but not exclusive to Brighton NR should NOT be asking to be blocking lines in the summer months unless they can frankly justify to the nth degree and that this should by exception not by right. I know of operators who actively tell NR where to put some of their blocks both literality and in terms of choice of language, simply because NR are now placing the blocks where it suits NR with scant regard to the operators and their requirements.

 

[The Planner]

And they are quite within their rights to, nothing stops them taking us to a dispute panel if there is an impasse. All the operators go to deconfliction meetings where this is discussed on a route and national level.

 

[Bikeman78]

Dorking - Horsham was peak only going all day around privatisation, SWT tried an hourly fast that evidently didn't generate much traffic.

I grew up in Horsham in the 1980s and 1990s. It was never peak only although the off peak service was very poor. In the late 1980s I think it dropped to two hourly, compared with half hourly through the peaks. Around 1990 they changed the off peak service to an hourly shuttle from Horsham to Dorking using a 2EPB. The peak service was still half hourly through to Victoria. From May 1993 the off peak was hourly through to Victoria. The SWT service ran from around 1995 to 1997. It was useful for connecting into Eurostar at Waterloo. Dad and I travelled on the last SWT into Horsham. It was the same day that the 117s finished on Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction.

 

[AndrewE]

As you probably know, there really is nowhere else for those buses to go anywhere near the station. The whole area is always busy and near capacity.

I don't know Brighton, but would there be any scope for the buses to do a circuit?
e.g. set down near London Rd station for people wanting connections east, then near Victoria Gardens for the City Centre, then back up Queens Rd to set down the last few near the station, then pick up (only) in front of the station and away back north?

 

[Robsignals]

I grew up in Horsham in the 1980s and 1990s. It was never peak only although the off peak service was very poor. In the late 1980s I think it dropped to two hourly, compared with half hourly through the peaks. Around 1990 they changed the off peak service to an hourly shuttle from Horsham to Dorking using a 2EPB. The peak service was still half hourly through to Victoria. From May 1993 the off peak was hourly through to Victoria. The SWT service ran from around 1995 to 1997. It was useful for connecting into Eurostar at Waterloo. Dad and I travelled on the last SWT into Horsham. It was the same day that the 117s finished on Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction.

I've lived locally since 73 and it was definitely peak only until around 1980, I may be wrong about it being much later than that. There's now a proposal for Warnham to be peak only again, it's some way from the village which has an hourly bus and even a Sunday service.

 

[mugam4]

I forgot the SOU -VIC don't run on Sundays

It barely runs anyway

 

[HowardGWR]

It barely runs anyway

It's certainly very vulnerable. I opened a thread on this, if you are interested. The thread title key-words were 'chronic bad performance' and 'Southampton' and 'Portsmouth'. (The Pompey suffers too but not to the same extent).

 

[Hophead]

I've lived locally since 73 and it was definitely peak only until around 1980, I may be wrong about it being much later than that. There's now a proposal for Warnham to be peak only again, it's some way from the village which has an hourly bus and even a Sunday service.

All the stations between Dorking & Horsham are remote from the villages they nominally serve. The 93 bus arguably serves all of them better, but obviously doesn't provide a London service (nor a late weekday service, as recently added to the train service)

 

[RJ]

How many months away is that? Is it even before the nine day closure in October?

That has now been cancelled.

 

[tsr]

I've lived locally since 73 and it was definitely peak only until around 1980, I may be wrong about it being much later than that. There's now a proposal for Warnham to be peak only again, it's some way from the village which has an hourly bus and even a Sunday service.

I’ve not heard anything internally which would formally suggest that, but it’s so lightly used that I wouldn’t be surprised.

Warnham does, of course, have some terraces of houses and some industrial works nearby. Some of the regular commuters to/from Warnham are those who work at said industrial facilities, although numbers are minimal.

To be fair, I can see Ockley going the same way. Off-peak usage is minimal, especially in the evenings, and the station is rather less convenient for local residential areas. Saturdays do see some leisure use, as it’s reasonably handy for a few cycle routes and suchlike, but Holmwood and Box Hill have more custom on that front.

All the stations between Dorking & Horsham are remote from the villages they nominally serve. The 93 bus arguably serves all of them better, but obviously doesn't provide a London service (nor a late weekday service, as recently added to the train service)

Holmwood may be remote from any of the local settlements falling under that name, but it is handy for Beare Green, which is a reasonably-sized village.

I’m quite surprised the evening service was enhanced. It may boost usage a little, but northbound trains from Horsham via Dorking in the evenings will probably still carry an awful lot of fresh air. I’ve never encountered a completely empty train (in passenger service...) down there, so far as I remember - but certainly many run with only one or two people onboard.

 

[Bishopstone]

The BML blockade has been cancelled - good - but I was surprised to find a poster at Lewes station, yesterday, announcing a 10-day blockade of the Seaford branch, between 18 and 27 August....this year.

This closure, for re-signalling, hasn't appeared on Southern's engineering work calendar which I check, periodically, to keep myself abreast of likely disruption and bustitution. Indeed, as of tonight, this ten day blockade still doesn't appear on their forward guidance web pages. Journey Planner enquiries for dates during the blockade specify the usual train service which is, obviously, wrong.

What has gone on, here? I assume Network Rail's planning horizon for major infrastructure projects is a lot longer than four weeks, so were they tardy in confirming the details to GTR, or - otherwise distracted by the Thameslink timetable meltdown - did GTR forget to give local rail users the usual (minimum) three months notice?

Naturally, I'm keen to discover how my commute will be impacted by this blockade. Here's what Southern have to say about bus timetabling and connections at Lewes etc, on their 'Seaford blockade' information hub web page:

'Details of these alterations will be available in the journey planner at nationalrail.co.uk during August 2018'

Okaaaay....thanks.

This web page also links to the National Rail station information page for Bishopstone, which gives the wrong location for the rail replacement bus stops, and which if adhered to by drivers would result in a double decker bus being peeled open, thanks to a low bridge!

It's really poor that, following the strike disruption of 2016 and a series of weekend closures during high summer 2017, we're losing our rail service for ten days (including a Bank Holiday) during the school holidays, when the railway should be bringing-in hundreds of day trippers. That GTR have no idea, four weeks out, of the scheduling of replacement buses just adds insult to injury.

 

[thelem]

I don't know Brighton, but would there be any scope for the buses to do a circuit?
e.g. set down near London Rd station for people wanting connections east, then near Victoria Gardens for the City Centre, then back up Queens Rd to set down the last few near the station, then pick up (only) in front of the station and away back north?

The front of the station is already too busy with local buses. The problem isn't really setting passengers down, it's what to do with the buses until they are needed for a journey North.

Running some buses to Hove instead could be a solution. There's a bus garage right next to Hove station.

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve not heard anything internally which would formally suggest that, but it’s so lightly used that I wouldn’t be surprised.

Warnham does, of course, have some terraces of houses and some industrial works nearby. Some of the regular commuters to/from Warnham are those who work at said industrial facilities, although numbers are minimal.

To be fair, I can see Ockley going the same way. Off-peak usage is minimal, especially in the evenings, and the station is rather less convenient for local residential areas. Saturdays do see some leisure use, as it’s reasonably handy for a few cycle routes and suchlike, but Holmwood and Box Hill have more custom on that front.

It's hard to see what would be achieved by such a move, particularly as the route isn't overwhelmed with express services being held up.

 

[aviator]

I’ve not heard anything internally which would formally suggest that, but it’s so lightly used that I wouldn’t be surprised.

Warnham does, of course, have some terraces of houses and some industrial works nearby. Some of the regular commuters to/from Warnham are those who work at said industrial facilities, although numbers are minimal.

To be fair, I can see Ockley going the same way. Off-peak usage is minimal, especially in the evenings, and the station is rather less convenient for local residential areas. Saturdays do see some leisure use, as it’s reasonably handy for a few cycle routes and suchlike, but Holmwood and Box Hill have more custom on that front.



Holmwood may be remote from any of the local settlements falling under that name, but it is handy for Beare Green, which is a reasonably-sized village.

I’m quite surprised the evening service was enhanced. It may boost usage a little, but northbound trains from Horsham via Dorking in the evenings will probably still carry an awful lot of fresh air. I’ve never encountered a completely empty train (in passenger service...) down there, so far as I remember - but certainly many run with only one or two people onboard.

If I recall correctly, "Ockley" station is quite close to Capel village (which is why the station used to be Ockley & Capel), but there is no easy or safe pedestrian access between them. So it's not a case of no need for off-peak service, but suppressed demand! If only a pavement was provided from the railway station and a traffic-light controlled crossing of the A24 ... or even, heaven forbid, a bus service connecting with each train to serve Capel and Ockley villages ...
And maybe a pedestrian link from the platforms into the fruit farm!! I remember it takes ages to leave the station, walk along the non-pavement road to the fruit farm entrance and then walk through the fields to find the fruit you want, and discover it's only a few feet from the railway station but on the other side of a fence

 

[tsr]

If I recall correctly, "Ockley" station is quite close to Capel village (which is why the station used to be Ockley & Capel), but there is no easy or safe pedestrian access between them. So it's not a case of no need for off-peak service, but suppressed demand! If only a pavement was provided from the railway station and a traffic-light controlled crossing of the A24 ... or even, heaven forbid, a bus service connecting with each train to serve Capel and Ockley villages ...
And maybe a pedestrian link from the platforms into the fruit farm!! I remember it takes ages to leave the station, walk along the non-pavement road to the fruit farm entrance and then walk through the fields to find the fruit you want, and discover it's only a few feet from the railway station but on the other side of a fence

Capel is closer than many of the houses in Ockley, but many residents find it is not that close. It’s easy enough to whizz down there on a bike, even with the main road in the way, but walking can feel like a bit of a trek from the middle or north of the village.

As for a fruit farm, I cannot once recall a single passenger visiting such a place, and I’ve spoken to a lot of them down there over the last few years. It would be very nice for something like that to drive custom, and there are plenty of station entrances around the country with links to local attractions... but I’m not sure the station subway or platform structure at Ockley would be easily modified to accommodate it, and a high cost would put everyone off. Bear in mind Ockley Platform 1, on the Up side of the station, has no step free access, no help points, no telephones and minimal other equipment, save for the large waiting shelter which is a relic of a previous era. So, to be fair, if money is to be spent, I suppose it would be better to fill in those gaps rather than try to spend money on a new entrance!

 

[Bikeman78]

It's hard to see what would be achieved by such a move, particularly as the route isn't overwhelmed with express services being held up.

I agree, though thinking about it, back in the 1980s some trains ran non stop from Horsham to Holmwood.

 

[AndrewE]

The front of the station is already too busy with local buses. The problem isn't really setting passengers down, it's what to do with the buses until they are needed for a journey North.

Running some buses to Hove instead could be a solution. There's a bus garage right next to Hove station.

Hove would be good for passengers connecting westwards... my suggestion was that the buses wouldn't wait anywhere in Brighton at all, just set down on a very small circuit round the town, then "pick up at the station and away north." I imagine the drivers could relieve themselves if needed while people boarded under railway staff supervision, then have their PNBs at northern end of the bus journey.