Brigg Line - What’s the point?

[Peterthegreat]

It was part of the original Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire railway's main line from Manchester to Immingham Docks, completed in 1849. The more northerly route, including the bridge over the Trent at Keadby, was only opened in 1866, primarily to serve the recently discovered iron ore deposits at Scunthorpe.

Since Immingham Docks didn't open until 1912 it would have been difficult for the MS&L to build a line there in 1849.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield to Lincoln already runs on Sundays, normally formed of a 150.

Unless Northern has plans to run 2 coach 195s towards Huddersfield on Sundays instead?

My understanding is that 195s will run to Huddersfield (from Lincoln via Sheffield) on Sundays from the May 2022 timetable.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Since Immingham Docks didn't open until 1912 it would have been difficult for the MS&L to build a line there in 1849.

I meant Grimsby. The MSLR/GCR did build Immingham Docks though.

 

[Heaps92]

The reason the service was cut, along with those on the S & K, Knottingley to Goole and the Whitby line was the government's refusal to permit RRNE more second generation dmus.

Knottingley to goole runs regularly still..
Well a few times a week. I use to catch that train to school back in the day

 

[adrock1976]

My understanding is that 195s will run to Huddersfield (from Lincoln via Sheffield) on Sundays from the May 2022 timetable.

Between Huddersfield and Sheffield, is the route via Penistone or via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Moorthorpe?

It does seem to be a roundabout route Huddersfield - Lincoln via Sheffield, whereas the shortest route according to the Railmiles website is via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Doncaster - Finningley - Gainsborough Lea Road.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Knottingley to goole runs regularly still..
Well a few times a week. I use to catch that train to school back in the day

I said cut meaning reduced - not cut out completely.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Between Huddersfield and Sheffield, is the route via Penistone or via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Moorthorpe?

It does seem to be a roundabout route Huddersfield - Lincoln via Sheffield, whereas the shortest route according to the Railmiles website is via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Doncaster - Finningley - Gainsborough Lea Road.

The plan I've heard is that they'll form the standard all-shacks Penistone line service on Sundays, extended to and from Lincoln. The Sunday interworking between the two routes isn't really about the end-to-end journeys, more about efficient use of crews and units.

I'm not aware of any plans for a faster service via Wakefield (outside of occasional diverted South TPEs), but it does come up semi-regularly in the Speculative Ideas section.

 

[Pigeon]

Back in the day, the Brigg line was part of the quickest and most direct route from Sheffield - and for that matter, Manchester - to Grimsby and Cleethorpes and was very busy with holiday traffic during the Summer months. However, the almost terminal decline of UK seaside holidays from the early 'sixties onwards rendered it virtually surplus to requirements, as it made economic sense to send the remaining traffic via the longer and slower route which served the much larger population centres of Doncaster and Scunthorpe. IIRC, the is/was a cement works at Kirton Lindsey which was once rail-served, but no longer.

Is it not also the case that because of the land it runs over being proper bog until a few hundred years ago, it has repeated problems with bits of it trying to sink into the more soggy places? So you get one of those anomalies where a dead straight line nevertheless has a line speed of "trundle" and can't be as useful as it ought to be.

 

[tbtc]

Between Huddersfield and Sheffield, is the route via Penistone or via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Moorthorpe?

It does seem to be a roundabout route Huddersfield - Lincoln via Sheffield, whereas the shortest route according to the Railmiles website is via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Doncaster - Finningley - Gainsborough Lea Road.

It's just two services tied together for operational reasons (and possibly because there's some market for journeys from North Nottinghamshire/ South Rotherham to Meadowhall) - nobody is going to start a through service from Lincoln to Huddersfield without service either Sheffield or Leeds

The Meadowhall link was certainly at the very least a "happy consequence" of linking those services, but I'm not sure how much it was the principal driver. One of the reasons Northern (under various operators) had so many seemingly odd through services, was to get as much out of their fleet as possible.
The Huddersfield to Lincoln link is set to return in the future on Sundays only, meaning that one day a week Huddersfield will see 195s in service.

Good point - the Sheffield - Lincoln journey time of just under 1h30 means that it'd be awkward to schedule just three units to maintain an hourly service, so I can understand why they tried to interwork it (even if this did mean some messy diagrams, like the Sheffield - Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln - Sheffield - Adwick - Sheffield ones or the Manchester - Leeds - Selby - Leeds - Brighouse - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Huddersfield - Brighouse - Leeds - Manchester ones)

 

[Llandudno]

Looking at the rail map of Lincolnshire it’s hard to see how the Brigg line is justified, virtually all the destination options are covered by other more frequent services, it’s just Brigg and Kirton Lindsey that the route is any use for.

Maybe a high quality bus service with integrated ticketing between Gainsborough - Kirton Lindsey - Brigg - Grimsby or Scunthorpe running 7 days a week might be a better option than running a skeleton service one day a week!

No doubt there is a bus service of sorts currently, presumably based on school requirements plus the odd shopping trip?

 

[Starmill]

There are still services from Gainsborough Central towards Sheffield at 0816, 0916, 1816 and 1912 Monday - Saturday.
On Saturdays the service is the same except that there is also a 1214, 1615 and 1816 which come from Cleethorpes, and therefore unusually depart from platform 1.

Trains depart from Sheffield for stations to Gainsborough Central at 0658, 0755, 1654 and 1754. On Saturdays, the service is the same except that the 0755 is extended to Cleethorpes via Brigg, and there are 1154 and 1554 services to Cleethorpes via Brigg also.

 

[swissrailpassion]

There was an hourly service to Gainsborough Central but covid has reduced it.

 

[robbeech]

It’s a nice jolly for fish and chips for the Northern crew that sign it.

It’s a nice jolly for fish and chips as a passenger too as the turn around time at Cleethorpes is generally just enough time to eat, have a stroll, buy a stick of rock and get the same train back.

Wasn't a weekday service as far as Gainsborough Central introduced (or planned to be introduced) not long before Covid hit?

I think we managed about 9 months of it. It made connections to and from the RobinHood line at Worksop acceptable (instead of 50 minutes) and opportunities to connect to and from the ECML at Retford more reliable. Of course that was one of the first ones to go and hasn’t come back yet.

The Meadowhall link was certainly at the very least a "happy consequence" of linking those services, but I'm not sure how much it was the principal driver. One of the reasons Northern (under various operators) had so many seemingly odd through services, was to get as much out of their fleet as possible.
The Huddersfield to Lincoln link is set to return in the future on Sundays only, meaning that one day a week Huddersfield will see 195s in service.

Huddersfield to Lincoln already runs on Sundays, normally formed of a 150.

Unless Northern has plans to run 2 coach 195s towards Huddersfield on Sundays instead?

Whilst I’ve no doubt there are no issues in doing so, are 195s cleared along the Penistone line into Huddersfield?

Between Huddersfield and Sheffield, is the route via Penistone or via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Moorthorpe?

It does seem to be a roundabout route Huddersfield - Lincoln via Sheffield, whereas the shortest route according to the Railmiles website is via Wakefield Kirkgate - Hare Park Jct - Doncaster - Finningley - Gainsborough Lea Road.

It’s integrated with the intermediate stations. On a Sunday it would probably be quicker to change to LNER at Retford and go via Doncaster to Leeds if the connections work (which when Retford is involved they probably don’t.)

and therefore unusually depart from platform 1.

I believe all the services terminating there were original going to use the crossover down from there and then use P1 to return towards Retford but this never happened. It’s only a shunt signal Retford bound from P2 located in a poor place, I assume some additional communication is required between driver and guard.

 

[ricoblade]

With the Restoring Your Railway project, one of the suggestions has been to extend the Sheffield - Gainsborough Central to Barton-on-Humber every second hour, which would restore daily passenger trains to Kirton-in-Lindsey and Brigg as well as direct trains from Barton to destinations westwards.

Also, from my observations, there are community groups in that part of Lincolnshire that do their best to promote the line in spite of the three journeys each way on one day of the week.

Yes, as someone who is fairly local to this there has been quite a lot of community lobbying to a) get the service up and running and b) to extend it in the future. This has centred around Marshall's Yard in Gainsborough (a shopping centre) right next to Gainsborough Central and Brigg Market trying to generate traffic and visitors and generally for Gainsborough where Lea Road station is a couple of miles out of town.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Gainsborough Central gets a weekday service to Sheffield, why not just run it through all week?

With the Restoring Your Railway project, one of the suggestions has been to extend the Sheffield - Gainsborough Central to Barton-on-Humber every second hour, which would restore daily passenger trains to Kirton-in-Lindsey and Brigg as well as direct trains from Barton to destinations westwards.

Also, from my observations, there are community groups in that part of Lincolnshire that do their best to promote the line in spite of the three journeys each way on one day of the week.

Lincolnshire is one of the more sparsely populated counties. I can certainly see that a Saturday only service is unlikely to create a strong new market but is there a latent, suppressed demand for a regular 7 day a week service?

 

[Starmill]

Lincolnshire is one of the more sparsely populated counties. I can certainly see that a Saturday only service is unlikely to create a strong new market but is there a latent, suppressed demand for a regular 7 day a week service?

Realistically, probably not. Sheffield - Doncaster - Scunthorpe - Grimsby - Cleethorpes is already a reasonably good service.

 

[YorksLad12]

It’s a nice jolly for fish and chips as a passenger too as the turn around time at Cleethorpes is generally just enough time to eat, have a stroll, buy a stick of rock and get the same train back.

Forum outing?

 

[robbeech]

Forum outing?

We have done part of the Brigg line before some years ago. Seem to recall we did Doncaster to Barnetby then back through to Sheffield via Brigg early one morning before doing an HST trip to Skegness and back later in the day.

 

[Iskra]

It’s a nice jolly for fish and chips as a passenger too as the turn around time at Cleethorpes is generally just enough time to eat, have a stroll, buy a stick of rock and get the same train back.

I quite agree; time for a quick pint on the station too on the way out.

Incidentally, the last time I made the journey- on a 144, just before Lockdown 1- the trains were actually fairly well loaded for a 'pointless' service.

 

[Pinza-C55]

In the dying days of the Deltics there used to be a very early morning train from Retford Low Level to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central and it used to produce a Class 37 or 31, steam heated. It left about 02.00 as far as I remember but I don't know where it originated. I can quite clearly remember passing through Gainsborough in the early hours. The platform at Retford would be full of bashers.

 

[Peterthegreat]

In the dying days of the Deltics there used to be a very early morning train from Retford Low Level to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central and it used to produce a Class 37 or 31, steam heated. It left about 02.00 as far as I remember but I don't know where it originated. I can quite clearly remember passing through Gainsborough in the early hours. The platform at Retford would be full of bashers.

Probably the Manchester to Cleethorpes news.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Probably the Manchester to Cleethorpes news.

Yes you are right. I still have my copy of 1H80, the Bashers Bible and it shows it as 1E62 02.10 M-S Manchester Piccadilly to Lincoln Central and 1E23 SUN 02.02 to Retford. There was also a 1E66 SUN 00.55 Grimsby Town (passenger from Doncaster departing at 03.50).

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yes you are right. I still have my copy of 1H80, the Bashers Bible and it shows it as 1E62 02.10 M-S Manchester Piccadilly to Lincoln Central and 1E23 SUN 02.02 to Retford. There was also a 1E66 SUN 00.55 Grimsby Town (passenger from Doncaster departing at 03.50).

1E66 formerly ran via Penistone, Barnsley and Mexborough and was the last scheduled passenger train between Barnsley and Mexborough.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In the dying days of the Deltics there used to be a very early morning train from Retford Low Level to Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central and it used to produce a Class 37 or 31, steam heated. It left about 02.00 as far as I remember but I don't know where it originated. I can quite clearly remember passing through Gainsborough in the early hours. The platform at Retford would be full of bashers.

I recall that service too, as I used it occasionally - it made a sort-of connection at Retford with the 0005 Kings Cross to Leeds. Again mainly for newspapers, but the formation included a BSK (mainly, I suspect, so that the sorters had access to a toilet). Advertised but little-used, so it was always possible to find an empty compartment and lie down to get some kip. Another newspaper train killed off by sectorisation, which decreed that any service carrying passengers had to be funded by the passenger sector, even if as in this case its primary purpose was to serve a Mail & Parcels customer and carrying passengers in the BSK in the formation cost little or nothing - so the passenger accommodation was simply withdrawn. Both trains were withdrawn altogether when the newspaper industry abandoned the railways.

But as others have noted, it ran via Lincoln - at least when I used it. I'd have had a very long walk home if it had gone via Brigg!

I don't recall exactly when it ran, but I'm fairly certain its Retford call was later than 0200. The train from London was quite dilatory, and with all the shunting of newspaper vans at intermediate stations quite unrecognisable from the train you had boarded at KX, but there was nevertheless a long wait at Retford in the small hours for the connection to arrive from Manchester. It arrived in Lincoln at about 0600.

I have an abiding recollection of the last time I used that connection, it was also my last time behind a Deltic. The 0005 left KX at the same time as the 2359 Aberdeen sleeper, also with a Deltic. I was, of course, windowhanging from the front carriage, so was treated to the sound of a pair of them, one right ahead of me and the other alongside, reverberating in the confines of Gasworks and Copenhagen Tunnels. The train from Retford Low Level was usually a Class 40.

 

[Adam0984]

Whilst I’ve no doubt there are no issues in doing so, are 195s cleared along the Penistone line into Huddersfield?

Yes they are cleared via the Penistone line, they route cleared them overnight and did all the platform clearance testing

 

[mmh]

There is no longer any ability to "object" to a closure - all you can do nowadays is make a representation. Nor does the local rail users consultative committee (if such things still existed!) have any power to hold a public hearing to investigate hardship, like they used to. All those comments you expect would be dealt with in the response to representations published by DfT.

There's every reason to. It will be rare, but victories do happen. The railway has a history of closing things, removing things, changing things which it is not legally allowed to do.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I recall that service too, as I used it occasionally - it made a sort-of connection at Retford with the 0005 Kings Cross to Leeds. Again mainly for newspapers, but the formation included a BSK (mainly, I suspect, so that the sorters had access to a toilet). Advertised but little-used, so it was always possible to find an empty compartment and lie down to get some kip. Another newspaper train killed off by sectorisation, which decreed that any service carrying passengers had to be funded by the passenger sector, even if as in this case its primary purpose was to serve a Mail & Parcels customer and carrying passengers in the BSK in the formation cost little or nothing - so the passenger accommodation was simply withdrawn. Both trains were withdrawn altogether when the newspaper industry abandoned the railways.

But as others have noted, it ran via Lincoln - at least when I used it. I'd have had a very long walk home if it had gone via Brigg!

I don't recall exactly when it ran, but I'm fairly certain its Retford call was later than 0200. The train from London was quite dilatory, and with all the shunting of newspaper vans at intermediate stations quite unrecognisable from the train you had boarded at KX, but there was nevertheless a long wait at Retford in the small hours for the connection to arrive from Manchester. It arrived in Lincoln at about 0600.

I have an abiding recollection of the last time I used that connection, it was also my last time behind a Deltic. The 0005 left KX at the same time as the 2359 Aberdeen sleeper, also with a Deltic. I was, of course, windowhanging from the front carriage, so was treated to the sound of a pair of them, one right ahead of me and the other alongside, reverberating in the confines of Gasworks and Copenhagen Tunnels. The train from Retford Low Level was usually a Class 40.

No , I mean it left Manchester at 02.00. I have my detailed diary from 1981 and may give it a look to confirm the details. For some reason I remember one of the bashers having a ghetto blaster playing "Being Boiled" by the Human League

 

[Aaron1]

No , I mean it left Manchester at 02.00. I have my detailed diary from 1981 and may give it a look to confirm the details. For some reason I remember one of the bashers having a ghetto blaster playing "Being Boiled" by the Human League

That would be an appropriate song for the underground!

 

[Pinza-C55]

That would be an appropriate song for the underground!

Well it only had 2 coaches and they were steam heated so it was appropriate for the train !

 

[zero]

I used this service on a sunny day this summer and it was quite popular with beachgoers from Sheffield, Worksop, Retford and Gainsborough.