Bridge Strikes

[mac]

If it's practical for train drivers, why is it 'not very practical' for lorry drivers?

Just needs a change of attitude in the industry.

Sadly such changes only ever seem to be bought about in the wake of catastrophic accidents.

Its practical for train drivers because of the amount of people applying, the TOCs need to reduce the numbers. I am old enough to remember when to become a driver you just asked for a job and got one.
It costs a driver about £3000 to get his license who would pay extra for these tests there is a shortage of drivers already, it's not like the railway where there is only about 12 companies in haulage there are 1000s and they will not pay for anything

 

[Llanigraham]

What change of attitude? How exactly is this going to work? The industry is more safety conscious than it's ever been. The question is, how do we stop human error?

But is it "human error"?
We have had one lorry driving member of this Forum proudly admitting that he ignores these signs because he knows they are often wrong, and we have just had a comment that the Tulse Hill bridge is mentioned on a truckers forum as being "incorrect".
I will accept that "some" incidents might be just that, but many are not and it is blatantly obvious that some drivers are pushing their luck and failing.

And I do know of one case where NR did claim of the truck operator for not only the damage to the bridge but also the delay repayments that had to be made to the TOC.

 

[mac]

Bridge strikes are:
Careless- Yes,
Deliberate - No way.

Although not the same thing, I have a roof box on my car at the moment. Last Friday I hit a height restriction barrier entering a car park at less than 5mph. I knew I was driving my car, but forgot I had the extra height on the roof.
With trucks the tractor unit will go under most bridges easily, its the height of the trailer and remembering if there is extra height on the trailer.

I'd say its easily done forgetting if something is higher than normal to forget the extra height.

When changing trailers the driver should measure the height and adjust the height display in the cab

 

[skyhigh]

Out of interest, does Network Rail send an invoice to the lorry owner/driver for the cost of repairs to the bridge after a bridge strike?

When I used to work for a bus company, one of our double-decker buses went under a low bridge. I'm pretty sure Network Rail sent us a bill for the damage caused to the bridge along with the bill for the delay minutes caused by having to close the line, although I'm not sure if they still do this.

 

[carriageline]

Bridge strikes are:

Careless- Yes,

Deliberate - No way.



Although not the same thing, I have a roof box on my car at the moment. Last Friday I hit a height restriction barrier entering a car park at less than 5mph. I knew I was driving my car, but forgot I had the extra height on the roof.

With trucks the tractor unit will go under most bridges easily, its the height of the trailer and remembering if there is extra height on the trailer.



I'd say its easily done forgetting if something is higher than normal to forget the extra height.

A lorry driver forgetting his height is very poor and unprofessional. Infact I would even go as far as to say should they be in charge of a 7.5+ ton vehicle? Yes, I agree we all make mistakes, but something as simple as that? Come on, it's their job!!

When you are employed as a professional LGV driver, forgetting simply isn't good enough, and isn't, nor should be used as an excuse. Part of their job is to know their vehicle and route, including where it can and can't go. If they are forgetting their new height, then some sort of reminder should be displayed.

End of the day, if I 'forget' something, and someone is hurt or killed, then not only will I be facing unemployment, but also face sitting in the dock.

 

[Antman]

A lorry driver forgetting his height is very poor and unprofessional. Infact I would even go as far as to say should they be in charge of a 7.5+ ton vehicle? Yes, I agree we all make mistakes, but something as simple as that? Come on, it's their job!!

When you are employed as a professional LGV driver, forgetting simply isn't good enough, and isn't, nor should be used as an excuse. Part of their job is to know their vehicle and route, including where it can and can't go. If they are forgetting their new height, then some sort of reminder should be displayed.

End of the day, if I 'forget' something, and someone is hurt or killed, then not only will I be facing unemployment, but also face sitting in the dock.

I'm not saying it is an excuse but we've got to be realistic here, haven't we all made mistakes whilst doing our job? I remember a train driver forgetting to stop at a station, no great harm done and he did apologise and most people saw the funny side of it but presumably he had the same sort of lapse in concentration that most bridge bashers do?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But is it "human error"?
We have had one lorry driving member of this Forum proudly admitting that he ignores these signs because he knows they are often wrong, and we have just had a comment that the Tulse Hill bridge is mentioned on a truckers forum as being "incorrect".
I will accept that "some" incidents might be just that, but many are not and it is blatantly obvious that some drivers are pushing their luck and failing.

And I do know of one case where NR did claim of the truck operator for not only the damage to the bridge but also the delay repayments that had to be made to the TOC.

Well I can't speak for anybody else but I would never attempt any bridge unless I was certain, there is always an alternative route.

 

[Clip]

Bridge strikes are:
Careless- Yes,
Deliberate - No way.

.

You say that yet we have already had one poster on this very thread say that they ignore eight restriction signs and that is very deliberate

 

[richw]

You say that yet we have already had one poster on this very thread say that they ignore eight restriction signs and that is very deliberate

I'd missed that post. I'd hate for that posters employer to see it if he's in any way identifiable from it!

 

[Clip]

start from about post #21 where he admits to doing so because he knows best

 

[Tomnick]

Whilst I agree that any driver ('professional' or otherwise) striking a bridge as a result of deliberately ignoring height restriction signs really does have no excuse, I don't think that the answer is to simply hammer the driver (remove licence, heavy fine etc.) and do nothing else. Even if it was a deliberate decision (to ignore signage), any decent investigation would look at underlying cultural issues (is the driver under unreasonable pressure to take short cuts?), selection, training and assessment of drivers, how easy it is to forget the height of the load, all that sort of thing. I certainly have a little bit sympathy for the bus driver who's spent the last nine days taking a single decker under a low bridge on the way back to the depot and instinctively does the same with the double decker on the tenth day, or the wagon driver who's taken a high-sided vehicle out after weeks of driving around with a low-loader - could something be done to make it harder for them to make mistakes in those sort of circumstances?

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd missed that post. I'd hate for that posters employer to see it if he's in any way identifiable from it!

T(prob 5'6 in reality knowing signs state lower than will actually fit under).

What about your own post where you question the signage and the "reality" of what fits and what doesn't

If slot (a) is exactly 4ft 2in and you slide in post (b) that is exactly 4ft 2in then it will fit precisely. There is no tolerance and no doubt there would be friction generated between the two surfaces. As someone posted. The size is the height restriction and will have that degree of tolerance required so that an object can pass through without issue and certainly without creating friction.

There is no "probably" and the attitude of any driver taking their vehicle, trailer etc through should be to know their full height and to only pass under the height restriction.

 

[notadriver]

When you are employed as a professional LGV driver, forgetting simply isn't good enough, and isn't, nor should be used as an excuse. Part of their job is to know their vehicle and route, including where it can and can't go. If they are forgetting their new height, then some sort of reminder should be displayed.

End of the day, if I 'forget' something, and someone is hurt or killed, then not only will I be facing unemployment, but also face sitting in the dock.

The word professional only seems to be used when the driver has done something wrong. Everything else including the salary and working conditions is not what a true professional would tolerate.

 

[BestWestern]

There is a video circulating on Facebook, filmed by somebody immediately on the scene of the Rochdale incident. Not the most tasteful video perhaps, but it does show the drama of the aftermath of such a collision. Often this sort of thing is viewed with a hint of Benny Hill, but the image of injured passengers being assisted to the kerb, the obviously horrified driver and her mangled bus, are rather sobering.

 

[Antman]

There is a video circulating on Facebook, filmed by somebody immediately on the scene of the Rochdale incident. Not the most tasteful video perhaps, but it does show the drama of the aftermath of such a collision. Often this sort of thing is viewed with a hint of Benny Hill, but the image of injured passengers being assisted to the kerb, the obviously horrified driver and her mangled bus, are rather sobering.

I've seen the video and it was bizzare to see the driver picking up coins off the cab floor although she may have been in a state of shock and understandably so.

It might be an idea to show this video to new drivers?

 

[Flying Snail]

Surely with modern satnav technology, some kind of alert system could be fitted inside double decker buses that gives an audible warning if the driver is approaching a low bridge? Could be fitted to HGV's too, I'm sure the insurance companies would love it

Dragon's Den, here I come!

There already are such systems available.

http://www.bridgeclear.com/

That is the one fitted to the double deckers in my company's fleet although despite the website claims it is very poor. Goes off for one bridge on a very busy bus corridor that is high enough and on at least one underbridge I regularly drive over on a dual carriageway.

It also didn't stop one of the deckers getting beheaded after it was transferred to Galway garage which hadn't had deckers previously. The railway bridge in question is at the back of the Bus/Rail station close to the bus garage and is probably the only low bridge in a 40 mile radius.

Maybe the system is more accurate in the UK, I would hope so.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Its practical for train drivers because of the amount of people applying, the TOCs need to reduce the numbers.

Are you suggesting that the railways employ psychological testing, not to ensure that their drivers are of psyhcologically suitable for their responsible job, but just to help 'whittle down' a large number of applicants?

 

[GearJammer]

The word professional only seems to be used when the driver has done something wrong.

Exactly, its funny how all these 'non professional' drivers seem to know everything about 'professional' driving and have the answer to everything.

What I find hysterical about these topics is you all get so upset about a bridge getting hit by high vehicles, yet a car is capable of killing people, I bet any Professional driver could go out with any of you in a car a rip your driving standards to shreds, yet you all persist on talking like you know best.

Keep it coming, I find it all most amusing.

 

[notadriver]

Are you suggesting that the railways employ psychological testing, not to ensure that their drivers are of psyhcologically suitable for their responsible job, but just to help 'whittle down' a large number of applicants?

According to the documentary 'double decker driving school' hundreds of people apply to become London bus drivers every year. So I'm sure the numbers of applicants are just as high ?

 

[Clip]

Exactly, its funny how all these 'non professional' drivers seem to know everything about 'professional' driving and have the answer to everything.

.

Yes, its called don't attempt to drive under bridges where your vehicle cant fit.


Simple stuff really, even for a novice.


Maybe you should understand that and not gob off about doing what you like as that isn't very professional is it?

 

[richw]

Exactly, its funny how all these 'non professional' drivers seem to know everything about 'professional' driving and have the answer to everything.

What I find hysterical about these topics is you all get so upset about a bridge getting hit by high vehicles, yet a car is capable of killing people, I bet any Professional driver could go out with any of you in a car a rip your driving standards to shreds, yet you all persist on talking like you know best.

Keep it coming, I find it all most amusing.

There is bad driving and then there is breaking the law. Shred a car drivers driving to pieces but you've openly confessed to breaking the law going past a restriction that prohibits vehicles higher than a certain height.

 

[BestWestern]

I've seen the video and it was bizzare to see the driver picking up coins off the cab floor although she may have been in a state of shock and understandably so.

It might be an idea to show this video to new drivers?

I thought the very same. Totally agree about showing new drivers.

 

[peterinsurrey]

Is there a link available to that post / thread?

http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=104468
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm going to add that last weekend I added a note onto 'fixmystreet.com' regarding the pedestrian crossing which is just prior to Tulse Hill bridge. Basically my experience of that crossing is that trucks especially never stop for pedestrians at this crossing. And many cars. Why? Well, it's downhill, and there is a speed camera going up the hill prior to it - and naturally for most drivers it seems that the standard behaviour is to speed up once past a camera. Also in the same message I added that trucks are rising the height restriction daily.

My reply (from TfL, via Lambeth Council) was: "We are responsible for providing and maintaining any speed limit signage in London. Any enforcement of speed limits is the responsibility of the Metropolitan Police." And details on how to contact them.

So status quo for the moment it seems. Also "third hand" information from the scene yesterday, the Police say they won't charge the driver, and they also indicated that Network Rail will cover everything.

 

[30909]

I assume that's one of the reasons this method isn't generally employed in this country. The infra-red overheight detectors coupled with a large dot-matrix sign which illuminates when a large vehicle passes seem to be more common, but presumably they cost a fair bit more, and aren't suitable for every location.

With incidents involving buses, presumably these only occur when a bus goes off-route (either as a result of diversions or driver error) or when a double decker is allocated to a route which should be single only. In the latter case, the bus company should be held partially responsible. The earlier incident from today involved a container which obviously is not always on the back of said wagon, so any height indicator in the cab wouldn't necessarily include the height of the container although it obviously should do so.

The anti strike beams have been in place for several years on the A325 Wrecclesham Road Farnham Surrey and has certainly reduced the impact of bridge strikes at this location.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2018498,-0.8174637,3a,75y,319.15h,98.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sucWh0fJzMe6KEG2Ycd7SGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

 

[gimmea50anyday]

http://youtu.be/PQTqvDUiYTQ

RAW UNCUT VERSION
Witnessed this horrific bus crash right in front of me as it happened in Rochdale I am still in shock at what I saw

 

[61653 HTAFC]

http://youtu.be/PQTqvDUiYTQ

Might be worth putting a warning with this link, it's pretty harrowing...

Slightly shocked that nobody had a go at the person filming it, to be honest. If I'd just been involved in something like that I don't think I'd want anybody filming me, especially if I was one of those poor folk who've suffered quite traumatic facial injuries...

 

[yorkie]

In that video it was surprising to see someone who might be the driver doing something that appeared to be collecting the cash while appearing to block the exit, and not trying to help anyone. OK so she may have been in shock but it was very odd to see that. If there was an incident at my workplace and someone was doing something like that, I'd not be impressed.

Also at one point a motorist appears speed through the scene of the crash, a group of us witnessed someone attempted to do something similar in Sheffield before a forum meal and several forum members may recall my reaction.

Might be worth putting a warning with this link, it's pretty harrowing...

Indeed. I have now inserted a quote so the post mostly complies with our requirements.

Just a gentle reminder to all of our Forum Rules regarding external content:

• If referring to an external source you should put the text in QUOTE tags (
  
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There are numerous reasons for this, in addition to the reason cited above for this particular incident, other more general reasons include the fact many of these links become broken in future years, many are not accessible to people accessing this forum at work (this forum is often an exception allowed site in the rail industry while many media sites are blocked), our blind members find it hard to navigate to external sites, find the relevant quote, and back again, and so on.... If anyone has any queries or concerns about this please PM me.

 

[Minilad]

Exactly, its funny how all these 'non professional' drivers seem to know everything about 'professional' driving and have the answer to everything.

What I find hysterical about these topics is you all get so upset about a bridge getting hit by high vehicles, yet a car is capable of killing people, I bet any Professional driver could go out with any of you in a car a rip your driving standards to shreds, yet you all persist on talking like you know best.

Keep it coming, I find it all most amusing.

If you are an example of a Professional driver then I am perfectly happy to be classed as an enthusiastic amateur thanks

 

[Llanigraham]

Exactly, its funny how all these 'non professional' drivers seem to know everything about 'professional' driving and have the answer to everything.

What I find hysterical about these topics is you all get so upset about a bridge getting hit by high vehicles, yet a car is capable of killing people, I bet any Professional driver could go out with any of you in a car a rip your driving standards to shreds, yet you all persist on talking like you know best.

Keep it coming, I find it all most amusing.

Do you admit that you have ignored legally binding bridge height signage?
Do you admit driving under bridges you know are signed lower than your actual vehicle height?
Do you consider yourself a professional driver?
Do you consider that you know more about the railway than those who work on it?
Do you realise that those that work on the railway might actually have a knowledge of other occupations, including LGV and other vehicle driving?
Are you a structural bridge engineer?

 

[ian959]

When changing trailers the driver should measure the height and adjust the height display in the cab

The transport company I used to be involved with had the height of the vehicle on the load sheet given to the driver and if it was higher than standard the words ABNORMAL HEIGHT added next to it.

Standard height was 4 metres from memory.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Ah, my bad on the warning!

Yes that was the bus driver collecting her float and takings. After which she dons her high viz.

she was no doubt in shock and not completely with her faculties, but really she should have been tending to and dealing with her passengers first and foremost. Wether thats down to the shock not coping with the situation or management mantra to protect the revenue I am not going to speculate.

However, the responsibility of the vehicle ultimately lies with the driver. It is the driver who has to know and ensure they know the condition and limitations of the vehicle i.e its size, weight etc and i find it incredible that a driver doesnt sign for competency of the route in the same way we are required to do so on the railway. Not only do the traincrew have to prove their compentency on a route, but the rolling stock has to aswell. I cannot see how a driver can not know how high their vehicle is, as there are plates within the vehicle making it clear how high the vehicle is.

Mistakes happen, but this is negligence pure and simple.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you realise that those that work on the railway might actually have a knowledge of other occupations, including LGV and other vehicle driving?

Just as a pointer here. There is a driver and conductor both former arriva bus drivers at my depot, another member being former military also in a driving role while I myself was a test and factory driver for Nissan and had taxi experience in glasgow during the commonwealth games, so yes as Llanigraham has pointed out!