Brexit matters

[najaB]

Plus Greece's problems were very much of their own making, and would have been far worse without help from the EU.

Indeed. People who speak of Germany "punishing" Greece with the terms imposed for the EU bailout need to go look at what the IMF has required of countries in return for finance.

 

[Journeyman]

Indeed. People who speak of Germany "punishing" Greece with the terms imposed for the EU bailout need to go look at what the IMF has required of countries in return for finance.

Exactly. Look at what debt has done to developing countries, and what a difference it made when those debts were written off.

 

[21C101]

Plus Greece's problems were very much of their own making, and would have been far worse without help from the EU.

four legs good, two legs bad.

 

[Journeyman]

four legs good, two legs bad.

What's that supposed to mean? It isn't my fault you can't see that the EU isn't entirely evil. Before you start, I know it isn't entirely good either.

 

[najaB]

four legs good, two legs bad.

Could you please make cogent arguments? Failing that, at least grammatically complete sentences. Thanks.

 

[Beemax]

EU will survive longer than UK. The COVID mess will probably prevent further integration as Member States will probably want to maintain control over health policy but they'll want to maintain the benefits of frictionless trade. On the UK side, Brexit has probably advanced Irish unification by about 10 years.

 

[21C101]

Could you please make cogent arguments? Failing that, at least grammatically complete sentences. Thanks.

You have clearly never read Orwell.

 

[najaB]

You have clearly never read Orwell.

Oh, I have. Animal farm, chapter 3.

But quoted in isolation it is neither an argument nor a complete sentence.

Especially since your postings more accurately reflect "two legs better".

 

[daodao]

four legs good, two legs bad.

At the time, the Greeks themselves were comparing the then German government with its predecessor of 70 years earlier with some quite lurid montages of Frau Merkel, as a search of the Internet from 2011/2 will reveal. Pro-Brexit newspapers such as the Daily Mail were prominent in highlighting this to paint the EU in a negative light, which may have had a subliminal effect on the vote on 23/6/16.

 

[Journeyman]

At the time, the Greeks themselves were comparing the then German government with its predecessor of 70 years earlier with some quite lurid montages of Frau Merkel, as a search of the Internet from 2011/2 will reveal.

That doesn't make it true, though. Invoking Godwin is rarely big or clever.

 

[bspahh]

Could this discussion carry on in some other thread, and so this one can get back to "Brexit matters"?

 

[Cowley]

Could this discussion carry on in some other thread, and so this one can get back to "Brexit matters"?

Yes I think that might be a good idea.

Can we please stay on topic and try not to get involved with cryptic comments and debates about Animal Farm from here on please.
Thanks all.

 

[class ep-09]

On the contrary I think it will end a huge amount of suffering in places like Spain and Greece.

Are you not allowed to think that the EU is bad for Europe and its people without being accused of irrationally hating it? A bit totalitarian isn't that?

Did anyone say Jehovah? BLASPHEMERS!

And yet Greece and Spain still prefer to be part of the EU .
At the end of the day who stops them starting invocation of the Article 50 ?

 

[21C101]

And yet Greece and Spain still prefer to be part of the EU .
At the end of the day who stops them starting invocation of the Article 50 ?

Correction, Greece and Spains politicians prefer to remain in the EU. Would be interesting to see what happened if they held a referendum on the matter. France and Italy may before too long depending on the outcome of their next general election.

 

[class ep-09]

Correction, Greece and Spains politicians prefer to remain in the EU. Would be interesting to see what happened if they held a referendum on the matter. France and Italy may before too long depending on the outcome of their next general election.

Greece 75% approval , Spain 85% , Italy 71% , France 68%

By the way - even if GE was held in France today , Marine Le Pen ditched the idea of leaving the EU , so there is no major political force in France now for leaving the EU.

Also , we were told 5 years ago that any second other countries will follow UK and leave the EU .
What happened , with the that pipe dream of brexiters ?

EU & Eurozone Membership Approval - Europe Elects

In the aftermath of the Brexit referendum 2016, there was much speculation about a domino effect. Some argued that other member countries would follow the British example. The…

europeelects.eu

 

[Journeyman]

Greece 75% approval , Spain 85% , Italy 71% , France 68%

By the way - even if GE was held in France today , Marine Le Pen ditched the idea of leaving the EU , so there is no major political force in France now for leaving the EU.

Also , we were told 5 years ago that any second other countries will follow UK and leave the EU .
What happened , with the that pipe dream of brexiters ?

EU & Eurozone Membership Approval - Europe Elects

In the aftermath of the Brexit referendum 2016, there was much speculation about a domino effect. Some argued that other member countries would follow the British example. The…

europeelects.eu

This is why @21C101 seems to me to be demonstrating an irrational hatred of the EU, and doesn't seem to understand that (a) there is absolutely no appetite for leaving anywhere else, that (b) we're regarded as fools for having left and (c) by the time we actually left, many Brexit supporters were regretting their decision, and approval of the EU in the UK was higher than it was when we voted to leave.

So much for "hahaha, they'll collapse without us!"

 

[jon0844]

This is why @21C101 seems to me to be demonstrating an irrational hatred of the EU, and doesn't seem to understand that (a) there is absolutely no appetite for leaving anywhere else, that (b) we're regarded as fools for having left and (c) by the time we actually left, many Brexit supporters were regretting their decision, and approval of the EU in the UK was higher than it was when we voted to leave.

So much for "hahaha, they'll collapse without us!"

That and if there was ever an economic justification for leaving (which I don't believe there was), we've spent so much in the last four years or so that we could have paid for membership for another 40 or 50 years.

 

[Journeyman]

That and if there was ever an economic justification for leaving (which I don't believe there was), we've spent so much in the last four years or so that we could have paid for membership for another 40 or 50 years.

Yup. The economic hit from Brexit is more than we spent on our entire membership.

 

[najaB]

Correction, Greece and Spains politicians prefer to remain in the EU. Would be interesting to see what happened if they held a referendum on the matter.

I know personal experience isn't the same thing as data or a survey, but I've been asked the same question by Belgians, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, German, Italian, Dutch, Austrian, Polish and Romanian people: "Why are you guys leaving? / Why have you guys left?" Not one of them can see the point personally, nor do they recognise the desire to leave in their home countries.

 

[ainsworth74]

I know personal experience isn't the same thing as data or a survey, but I've been asked the same question by Belgians, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, German, Italian, Dutch, Austrian, Polish and Romanian people: "Why are you guys leaving? / Why have you guys left?" Not one of them can see the point personally, nor do they recognise the desire to leave in their home countries.

Just you wait, the whole EU edifice will crumble soon in a tidal wave of people demanding their freedom from the evil empire. Just you wait, any day now, very soon now, just you wait for it...

 

[Snow1964]

Yup. The economic hit from Brexit is more than we spent on our entire membership.

And that’s only the Government part

As many people are now discovering (actually the info on this was available if you read right source) that Brexit means can’t order cheap stuff from Europe anymore, due to VAT and customs surcharges. So there are other economic costs.

I haven’t yet found anyone that can list any economic advantages we have had from Brexit in the 13 months since it happened. And I don’t mean listing theoretical advantages that may / may not happen at some unspecified dated in the future, I mean list economic gains to date.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know personal experience isn't the same thing as data or a survey, but I've been asked the same question by Belgians, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, German, Italian, Dutch, Austrian, Polish and Romanian people: "Why are you guys leaving? / Why have you guys left?" Not one of them can see the point personally, nor do they recognise the desire to leave in their home countries.

There can be no better demonstration of the significant cultural divide between continental Europe and Britain (and especially England).

 

[Annetts key]

There can be no better demonstration of the significant cultural divide between continental Europe and Britain (and especially England).

Yeah, it’s fairly simple, the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, along with the Belgians, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, Germans, Italians, Dutch, Austrian, Polish and Romanian people, as well as many countries around the rest of the world think (rightly IMHO) that the English are mad. And that was before brexit...

The English do seem capable of upsetting almost any other nation or people. There is a reason for that, and brexit just confirms it. Far too many English are inwards looking, with self coming before helping others. It’s all really rather sad.

Ultimately, only time will tell what the overall impact of brexit was, but so far, in the short term, it’s looking rather depressing.

Government spending on border control has shot up. We now need a whole army of people to try to negotiate trade deals (none of which were needed before). There has been a tremendous increase in the paperwork and bureaucracy needed to inport or export goods, increasing costs for everyone (including ordinary consumers). The delays due to this extra paperwork and procedures is also causing logistical problems. The change in the VAT system means trying to price up items that you want to buy from aboard is a nightmare. And customers in the E.U. are having similar problems when buying from the U.K.
Lots of small businesses have all but given up trying to trade across the border.

Apparently most farmers and fishermen (at least according to some brexit supporters) were in favour of leaving. But a lot of fishermen now have found that they can’t easily sell their catch to the E.U.
And some farmers are having problems due to brexit.

Sorry, could someone please remind me what the benefits are supposed to be. Only I don’t appear to be able to see any at the moment, or for the foreseeable future.

 

[Typhoon]

Sorry, could someone please remind me what the benefits are supposed to be. Only I don’t appear to be able to see any at the moment, or for the foreseeable future.

On the benefits of Brexit:

Rees-Mogg: “We will know at some point, of course we will. But it’s a question of timescale.”

Guru-Murthy: “So how long have you got?”

Rees-Mogg: “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time, we really won’t.”

Guru-Murthy: “Of course not, but I mean we’ll have an indication. We’ll know if there’s been chaos, we’ll know if there have been job losses.”

Rees-Mogg: “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”

So you've got a little while to wait just yet (not me, unless I'm the oldest living human).

From https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566 which includes a clip from Channel 4 News.

 

[edwin_m]

There can be no better demonstration of the significant cultural divide between continental Europe and Britain (and especially England).

Don't tar everyone with the same brush. There are plenty of English people horrified by Brexit. A majority in favour of it was probably only secured by concealing the real intention and misleading the electorate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah, it’s fairly simple, the Scottish, Welsh, Irish, along with the Belgians, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, Germans, Italians, Dutch, Austrian, Polish and Romanian people, as well as many countries around the rest of the world think (rightly IMHO) that the English are mad. And that was before brexit...

The English do seem capable of upsetting almost any other nation or people. There is a reason for that, and brexit just confirms it.

Tiresome inverse exceptionalism. If this was applied to any other people it would rightly derided as xenophobia, or worse, racism. There is nothing peculiarly defective about English people or their culture just as there isn't about any other European country I can think of.

You will find the Welsh also voted for Brexit.

Sorry, could someone please remind me what the benefits are supposed to be. Only I don’t appear to be able to see any at the moment, or for the foreseeable future.

It was a heavy and deserved defeat for Remain. I voted to Remain, by the way, on the basis that the status quo was not especially damaging.

The longer that people try to insist on quantifying benefits using discrete and tangible things like "how much money does it cost", the more profound and ill-understood the divide becomes.

This has always been about culture and identity, and about the English especially not feeling part of the European consensus and polis, and always will be. And those are perfectly valid reasons for a person to cast their vote one way or another. All this discussion about treaties, the economy, jobs and the like - all the ordinary citizens on here in the shouting match - it's all a proxy war.

 

[najaB]

All this discussion about treaties, the economy, jobs and the like - all the ordinary citizens on here in the shouting match - it's all a proxy war.

Except none of the pro-Brexit parties and organisations campaigned on the basis of "We're not European".

They all said that we would be better off out of the EU than in, so it's right and appropriate for those of us who were opposed to question when we are going to start seeing the benefits we were promised.

I seem to remember the NHS should be getting a new hospital every couple of weeks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Except none of the pro-Brexit parties and organisations campaigned on the basis of "We're not European".

They all said that we would be better off out of the EU than in, so it's right and appropriate for those of us who were opposed to question when we are going to start seeing the benefits we were promised.

Fight the proxy war all you like; it has been one since the beginning. Nothing that is said about jobs or the economy or passports will make a blind bit of difference.

The Conservatives maintain a healthy lead, unfortunately.

 

[najaB]

The Conservatives maintain a healthy lead, unfortunately

And part of cutting into that lead is doggedly calling them out on their lies.

 

[birchesgreen]

People don't care about truth or reality anymore, they want fantasy and joviality.

Its why Starmer is the right man at the wrong time.