Brexit matters

[AlterEgo]

People don't care about truth or reality anymore, they want fantasy and joviality.

Its why Starmer is the right man at the wrong time.

I couldn’t have put that better myself.

 

[DerekC]

This has always been about culture and identity, and about the English especially not feeling part of the European consensus and polis, and always will be. And those are perfectly valid reasons for a person to cast their vote one way or another.

I think that's right up to a point - however a lot of English people did value being part of Europe and a major reason why Remain didn't win was because it didn't work on this at all. They ran an almost entirely negative campaign with scarcely any discussion of the "better together" theme.

 

[najaB]

People don't care about truth or reality anymore, they want fantasy and joviality.

Statemanship is about giving people what they need, not what they want.

 

[REVUpminster]

Brexit won the vote because 40 years ago they were keen to stay in the EU but having lived through it saw what it became. Younger voters only know the EU they have grown up in. As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

 

[alex397]

Brexit won the vote because 40 years ago they were keen to stay in the EU but having lived through it saw what it became. Younger voters only know the EU they have grown up in. As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

A little bit patronising about younger voters here.

 

[class ep-09]

Brexit won the vote because 40 years ago they were keen to stay in the EU but having lived through it saw what it became. Younger voters only know the EU they have grown up in. As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

Younger voters , can see that they have been lied to by the older , more “wise” generation.
Next, younger voters will choose politicians that work for them, not for their chums , and these politicians will tell the truth for once .

 

[nlogax]

As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

Are you describing yourself there? Half-genuine question though god knows we all need the levity at the moment.

 

[21C101]

Younger voters , can see that they have been lied to by the older , more “wise” generation.
Next, younger voters will choose politicians that work for them, not for their chums , and these politicians will tell the truth for once .

I remember being solemly told that very thing the thick end of 40 years ago at school by a general studies teacher who was also a Liberal councillor in a London Borough. Peoples views change as they get older.

The uber remainers, who cannot even begin to understand why the majority voted to leave and assume they were gullibly led down that path by liars, need to read beyond their comfort zones rather more.

I think their biggest failing is a bureaucratic mindset which wants everything regulated and orderly and leads them to wholly underestimate people and commerces ability to adapt and change and still thrive when the goalposts move, which had led them to make a negative case full of doom laden worries.

A typical case of this is how the remainers accused the government of having blood on their hands last year for not joining the EU vaccination procurement scheme and confidently predicted a UK starved of vaccines while the EU used their heft to bag them all. Their economic doom predictions have failed for the same reason and will continue to be proved wrong.

 

[bspahh]

Their economic doom predictions have failed for the same reason and will continue to be proved wrong.

Brexit caused a 20% devaluation in the pound, so whilst we were still had easy access to the single EU market, trade was doing fine. Now we are a third country, here is a summary of food and drink trade from the UK-EU for January 2021.

There is an 11% drop for non-EU trade, 75% for EU trade, so its not just Covid.

This is from https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1373974501998915585

I'm glad I don't farm Salmon.

 

[Beemax]

The uber remainers, who cannot even begin to understand why the majority voted to leave and assume they were gullibly led down that path by liars, need to read beyond their comfort zones rather more.

I regularly read outside my comfort zone. I often dip into the Telegraph comments sections. They are so far to the right that they make the Telegraph editorial stance look positively Woke. I treat it as a sort of zoo; Covid deniers over here, Trump continuity supporters to the right, Bill Gates conspiracy theorists to the left, no-deal Brexiteers in this corner, hardcore racists down the far end. The scary thought would be if some of the inhabitants ever escaped into the broader community.

 

[REVUpminster]

Is January a good month to choose because of stockpiling the previous months. Not many German cars were imported.

Also home milk production fell due to cafes and restaurants not buying because they were closed. There's a lot of cheap beef in M&S at the moment as farmers slaughtered their cattle at dairy farms.

 

[class ep-09]

Is January a good month to choose because of stockpiling the previous months. Not many German cars were imported.

Also home milk production fell due to cafes and restaurants not buying because they were closed. There's a lot of cheap beef in M&S at the moment as farmers slaughtered their cattle at dairy farms.

Stockpiling was about imported goods to the UK.

75% drop of trade mainly relates to exporting goods from UK to EU so your stockpiling excuse has very little to do with the reality.

I wonder how much drop UK’s services will suffer , after COVID eases off .

Services are not covered by any deal so UK’s providers can’t offer their business to EU partners at all now.

The only way is to establish another business in the EU - and pay taxes , employ people etc in the EU.

Spin that in to positive “patriot” !!

 

[jon0844]

Brexit won the vote because 40 years ago they were keen to stay in the EU but having lived through it saw what it became. Younger voters only know the EU they have grown up in. As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

Becoming like Victor Meldrew isn't a good thing.

I must be bucking the trend somewhat as my political views have shifted the other way in the last ten years, having seen how the Tory party is no longer what I used to vote for and support. As you say, people usually become more right wing as they get older.

 

[JonasB]

Stockpiling was about imported goods to the UK.

Are sure there wasn't any stockpiling in the other direction? I know at least some whisky afficionados who bought a bottle or two extra last year in case of a no deal and tariffs on Scottish whisky. But that is just anecdotal evidence.

 

[REVUpminster]

The EU has to punish a country leaving and put the fear of God in those that remain. It's how a protection racket works. Job done !!

 

[Annetts key]

The EU has to punish a country leaving and put the fear of God in those that remain. It's how a protection racket works. Job done !!

What, unlike the U.K. government changing the tax laws so that VAT is charged on any purchase or import from abroad, of any value, even from countries outside the E.U.

In the past, U.K. citizens could buy most items up to the value of £15 (including postage and packaging) without having to worry about having to pay VAT and being charged an administrative fee for the privilege of being charged VAT. The Royal Mail charged £8, but some other carriers charged more.

That kind of protection racket?

 

[nlogax]

The EU has to punish a country leaving and put the fear of God in those that remain. It's how a protection racket works. Job done !!

This tired old baloney again.

 

[class ep-09]

Are sure there wasn't any stockpiling in the other direction? I know at least some whisky afficionados who bought a bottle or two extra last year in case of a no deal and tariffs on Scottish whisky. But that is just anecdotal evidence.

Of course there was stockpiling on both sides but imports fell approx 30% , exports fell 60%+ .
Considering that UK buys more stuff from the EU , I do not think that the level of the export contraction was influenced that much by stockpiling on EU’s side.
BTW - apart of whisky , what else do we sell to the EU ?
I know : cars that went down also “biggly “
Do they stockpile UK’s cars in the EU ?
I do not think so.

Food produce - does EU stockpile food from the UK?
Nope

Salmon - similar story

 

[JonasB]

Of course there was stockpiling on both sides but imports fell approx 30% , exports fell 60%+ .
Considering that UK buys more stuff from the EU , I do not think that the level of the export contraction was influenced that much by stockpiling on EU’s side.

Maybe it was just whisky. High value, long shelf life and it doesn't take up much space probably makes it a good item for stockpiling. Perishable goods like salmon or large items like cars are a different story.

 

[Annetts key]

Brexit won the vote because 40 years ago they were keen to stay in the EU but having lived through it saw what it became. Younger voters only know the EU they have grown up in. As they get older and become like Victor Meldew their views will change and the next generation will only know outside the EU.

That’s a very big and hence inaccurate generalisation. There are plenty of people who continue to broadly vote the same regardless of their age. As with everything in life, there is a wide spectrum of opinions, with some people changing their mind from election to election.

I remember being solemly told that very thing the thick end of 40 years ago at school by a general studies teacher who was also a Liberal councillor in a London Borough. Peoples views change as they get older.

The uber remainers, who cannot even begin to understand why the majority voted to leave and assume they were gullibly led down that path by liars, need to read beyond their comfort zones rather more.

I think their biggest failing is a bureaucratic mindset which wants everything regulated and orderly and leads them to wholly underestimate people and commerces ability to adapt and change and still thrive when the goalposts move, which had led them to make a negative case full of doom laden worries.

A typical case of this is how the remainers accused the government of having blood on their hands last year for not joining the EU vaccination procurement scheme and confidently predicted a UK starved of vaccines while the EU used their heft to bag them all. Their economic doom predictions have failed for the same reason and will continue to be proved wrong.

As I said above, some people may change their minds, but not everyone does.

And again with the generalisations. So are you a uber brexiteer?

Did you actually enabage with and discuss the issues with people who had a wide range of views, including undecided people and not just remainers and brexiteers? Did you actually listen to what each one of them said?

From what I can tell, people had many reasons for wanting brexit, some of which had little if anything to actually do with the E.U. While others had very strong reasons.

It is similar with so called remainers, there are a wide range of views.

And yes, there have been many misleading stores in various newspapers over the years. After all, if you believe everything you read in the newspapers, there is a world war bomber on the moon. And there are plenty of other misleading headlines and stories. So yes, there are bound to be some who voted leave based on some of the rubbish that was published. How many, and whether it was significant is another matter, and one we are never likely to know the answer to.

Just as some people will have voted remain based on some of the more outlandish scare stories.

And as to a bureaucratic mindset, that is exactly what we now have with this government and all the new border systems that are now required. Plus if we, the U.K. want to work with any E.U. country, on nearly anything, there is now far more bureaucracy. Not less. And then there is this country’s very own restrictions and bureaucracy. Just watch Yes, Minister or Yes, Prime Minister, as although these are comedies, they are apparently very closely based on how our system works (link).

On the so called E.U. bureaucratic mindset, I get the impression that some brexiteers
actually don’t know how the systems of the E.U. actually work. Each member country has official representatives appointed by the government of said country. And the E.U. parliament is made up of representatives elected in each member country by ordinary voters.

The European Union's fundamental values are respect for human dignity and human rights, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law. These values unite all the member states – no country that does not recognise these values can belong to the Union.

That sounds fine to me. Which part do you not agree with?

Are there problems with the E.U.? Yes, of course. But then there are problems within the country of the U.K., the government and parliamentary system in the U.K. And in fact, with a lot of the systems that humans have put together. Some of which is due to compromises that have been made, plus various other reasons, such as historical traditions.

But one thing is absolutely certain, we won’t change the E.U. from being outside of it.

As to me, I actually would prefer it if there was a world wide system, with a single currency being used in every single country around the world. A Bank of England bank note or coin is just a fancy I owe you note. It even says “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of (amount) pounds” on every note!
As more and more transactions are done with electronic cashless methods, soon bank notes will just be specimens in museums. At that point, why would the world actually need all the different currencies?

And before you argue that having different currencies allows poorer countries to have their own economic circumstances, keep in mind that it’s actually debt owed to first world countries, banks, companies etc that cause the real problems. And if having separate currencies are such a good idea, why do we have a single currency across all the U.K.? In the past, different areas of the U.K. had their own banks, a lot of which issued their own bank notes...

 

[REVUpminster]

Banks in the UK such as Scotland and Northern Ireland do issue their own notes but they are not legal tender anywhere, whereas the Bank of England is a treasury note.

When I worked for the Underground especially at Heathrow, when we took in Scottish or NI notes we had to withdraw them and bank them separately. I believe for every note for example that the Bank of Scotland PLC issue they have to have a Bank of England note in their vaults. In theory there is nothing to stop Barclays issuing notes.

 

[Annetts key]

A Bank of England note may not be legal tender. Look up what legal tender actually means.
Also, a surprising number of English shops, stores and outlets are happy to take Scottish bank notes, even in the South West of England.

 

[21C101]

What, unlike the U.K. government changing the tax laws so that VAT is charged on any purchase or import from abroad, of any value, even from countries outside the E.U.

In the past, U.K. citizens could buy most items up to the value of £15 (including postage and packaging) without having to worry about having to pay VAT and being charged an administrative fee for the privilege of being charged VAT. The Royal Mail charged £8, but some other carriers charged more.

That kind of protection racket?

The UK only did this because it was in the EU when the EU decided to do it and the UK decided to stay aligned with the EU on this matter

However at a late stage the EU postponed implementation from Jan 1st 2021 to July 1st 2021 due to Covid.

The UK kept the change as 1st Jan to avoid there being two major rule changes in six months.

The EU are implementing this "protection racket " as you put it, six months late on 1st July.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2021 ==

On the so called E.U. bureaucratic mindset, I get the impression that some brexiteers
actually don’t know how the systems of the E.U. actually work. Each member country has official representatives appointed by the government of said country. And the E.U. parliament is made up of representatives elected in each member country by ordinary voter
"The European Union's fundamental values are respect for human dignity and human rights, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law. These values unite all the member states – no country that does not recognise these values can belong to the Union."
That sounds fine to me. Which part do you not agree with?

Here are some more fine constitutional words:

"Citizens are equal before the law, without distinction of origin, social or property status, race or nationality, sex, education, language, attitude to religion, type and nature of occupation, domicile, or other status. The equal rights of citizens of are guaranteed in all fields of economic, political, social, and cultural life"

Women and men have equal rights. Exercise of these rights is ensured by according women equal access with men to education and vocational and professional training, equal opportunities in employment, remuneration, and promotion, and in social and political, and cultural activity, and by special labour and health protection measures for women; by providing conditions enabling mothers to work; by legal protection, and material and moral support for mothers and children, including paid leaves and other benefits for expectant mothers and mothers, and gradual reduction of working time for mothers with small children."

"Citizens have the right to rest and leisure. This right is ensured by the establishment of a working week not exceeding 41 hours, for workers and other employees, a shorter working day in a number of trades and industries, and shorter hours for night work; by the provision of paid annual holidays, weekly days of rest, extension of the network of cultural, educational, and health-building institutions, and the development on a mass scale of sport, physical culture, and camping and tourism; by the provision of neighborhood recreational facilities, and of other opportunities for rational use of free time."

"In accordance with the interests of the people, citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly, meetings, street processions and demonstrations. Exercise of these political freedoms is ensured by putting public buildings, streets and squares at the disposal of the working people and their organisations, by broad dissemination of information, and by the opportunity to use the press, television, and radio."

"Citizens are guaranteed freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda. Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited" "The privacy of citizens, and of their correspondence, telephone conversations, and telegraphic communications is protected by law."

That sounds fine to me. Which part do you not agree with?

By the way they are extracts from the 1977 constitution of the USSR.

 

[Annetts key]

Here are some more fine constitutional words:

So can you now find the equivalent constitutional documents for the U.K.?

 

[21C101]

So can you now find the equivalent constitutional documents for the U.K.?

No. Thank goodness we don't have a constitution.

Constitutions result in farces where it it is impossible to ban people from wandering around cities with guns because you need a two thirds majority.

They also transfer the power to make the law from elected representatives to an unelected caste of activist judges who make laws by creatively and egregiously interpreting the constitution in a consititutional court.

One cardinal reason I voted brexit is because it ended the situation where the UK so-called supreme court could rule on a matter interpreting the EU constitutions vague rights and Parliament were powerless to do anything about it.

That ended on 1st January this year. They can still make such a judgement however Parliament can immediately now pass an Act of Parliament nullifying the judgement either directly or by repealing the law the judgement was based on.

They are now a court of final appeal with no quasi-constitutional court role.

 

[biko]

No. Thank goodness we don't have a constitution.

Constitutions result in farces where it it is impossible to ban people from wandering around cities with guns because you need a two thirds majority.

They also transfer the power to make the law from elected representatives to an unelected caste of activist judges who make laws by creatively and egregiously interpreting the constitution in a consititutional court.

Eh, this isn’t correct. I live in a country with a written constitution where guns are banned without ever needing a two thirds majority and without a constitutional court. I would argue that having a common law system in which judges create new rules is more of a problem than having continental style judges who have to interpret law. It all boils down to what the constitution actually contains, not whether there is a constitution or not.

 

[21C101]

Eh, this isn’t correct. I live in a country with a written constitution where guns are banned without ever needing a two thirds majority and without a constitutional court. I would argue that having a common law system in which judges create new rules is more of a problem than having continental style judges who have to interpret law. It all boils down to what the constitution actually contains, not whether there is a constitution or not.

The problem with a constitution is once it contains something, it is very difficult to un-contain it.

And the EUs constitution, and charter of fundaental rights are stuffed to the gunnels with vaguely worded and lofty sounding platitudes that in practice place enormous scopen in the European Court of Justices unelected judges to make up almost whatever they want from it.

 

[REVUpminster]

The EU is constitutional but it's many countries allow the police to routinely carry guns. When this happens the individual policeman become during an incident judge, jury and executioner. The individual would have to justify their actions but very little about the police on the continent is ever reported over here.

 

[Doppelganger]

No. Thank goodness we don't have a constitution.

The UK does have a constitution, but it's easier not to deal with fact isn't it?

If you said the UK doesn't have a WRITTEN constitution, then I would agree.

Please don't convolute the US constitution with other nations.

 

[JonasB]

An interesting tweet regarding the vaccine situation: https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1373944063582437377

In an alternate universe where the UK is lagging badly in vaccines and a Welsh factory is insisting on exporting them to the EU to honor some fine point of contract law, the UK papers would be calling for immediate nationalization of all pharma and the invasion of Belgium.