Brexit matters

[alex397]

Thus debate to an extent is really all about whether you want a comprehensive nanny state to or whether people should have the freedom to make their own choices, even stupid choices?

Some people may be able to choose what food they buy in the supermarket, but they don’t often have a choice with school dinners, hospital food, food banks, cafes. Or if they’re a child they just eat what their parents give them. So, food standards arnt all about choice. We need governmental organisations to help with food standards.

 

[21C101]

I think your position is ridiculous quite frankly, my understanding of TPP is that it is little more than you expect from a typical trade deal.

Ok it is working towards some common standards but they are optional as I understand it.
Does it stop countries doing individual trade deal outside TPP, No
Does it demand freedom of movement, No
Does it demand a single currency and decisions made by a central bank, No
Does it demand a common agricultural policy and fisheries policy, No
Does it demand increasing levels of integration that the public had no direct say in until the referendum where they made their view clear.

The USA have flirted with joining this and may do at some point, but I think you can be pretty sure that the USA will never join something that has a major impact on their sovereignty, and I expect that any trade organisation that tries to go too far in the direction of the EU that the UK is member of, the UK would withdraw from.

I love how remainers angrily accuse anyone taking the brexit side of view of things like being "blinded with hatred for the EU".

The last month or so really has been popcorn time.

 

[37424]

I love how remainers angrily accuse anyone taking the brexit side of view of things like "being blinded with hatred for the EU".

The last month or so really has been popcorn time.

Well they can not say that about me as I was a reluctant Remainer who would have on balance stayed in the EU, so I don't hate the EU, but having seen what happened since leaving I see no reason to re-join certainly not for the foreseeble future and I think Remainers need to give it rest quite frankly, and if we ever did look at re joining I doubt we would get some of the opt outs we had such as keeping our own currency and I think that would be unacceptable to most.

 

[najaB]

…and if we ever did look at re joining I doubt we would get some of the opt outs we had such as keeping our own currency and I think that would be unacceptable to most.

If, as is entirely possible, the Euro is worth more than the pound at that point you may find that reluctance goes away.

 

[GusB]

I love how remainers angrily accuse anyone taking the brexit side of view of things like being "blinded with hatred for the EU".

I think it's quite reasonable to assume that some people are "blinded with hatred for the EU".

She thinks she is the leader of country and not an "association". She will probably declare war on the UK because she can use the soldiers stationed in Germany.

I rest my case!

PS - The name of the pharmaceutical company is Pfizer.

 

[21C101]

I think it's quite reasonable to assume that some people are "blinded with hatred for the EU".

In the sense that there are five hundred million people in Europe there are probably a few nutters who are.

Aside from that do you not think that throwing accusations like that around is somewhat hyperbolic and extreme, and frankly daft?

 

[jon0844]

Some people do have delusions of grandeur if they think Germany is going to declare war on us, would you not agree?

 

[Journeyman]

In the sense that there are five hundred million people in Europe there are probably a few nutters who are.

Aside from that do you not think that throwing accusations like that around is somewhat hyperbolic and extreme, and frankly daft?

Personally I think you've thrown quite a lot of hyperbolic extremities about, but hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[21C101]

Some people do have delusions of grandeur if they think Germany is going to declare war on us, would you not agree?

I wasn't taking the post entirely seriously but the usual order of play is for us to declare war on Germany isn't it?

 

[alex397]

I love how remainers angrily accuse anyone taking the brexit side of view of things like being "blinded with hatred for the EU".

The last month or so really has been popcorn time.

So you think all Remainers think all Leavers think this way? You are making sweeping assumptions yourself!
If you dont want to make sweeping assumptions yourself it’s probably better to say ‘some Remainers’ .

 

[jon0844]

And don't mention the war!

 

[REVUpminster]

]
I like the way remainers selectively quote only part of posts.

 

[52290]

I've voted in both EU referenda and been on the losing side both times. I'll let everyone know how I intend to vote if there's a third one.

 

[21C101]

So you think all Remainers think all Leavers think this way? You are making sweeping assumptions yourself!
If you dont want to make sweeping assumptions yourself it’s probably better to say ‘some Remainers’ .

Yes I meant some, the Uber Remainers (the likes of Adonis (who on transport matters I see far more eye to eye with).

A good few of the rest (mostly those whos heart sympathised with leave but who thought it would be too economically disruptive) are currently quietly changing sides after the recent events.

The irreconcilables seem to be a mixture of geniune internationalists, European Nationalists who identify with the EU as a country not the UK and those who saw the EU as a useful way to keep the English Establishment tied down gulliver like in terms of UK politics. There are not that many of them but they are rather vocal.

It is pathetic that they seemingly cannot distingush between criticism, dislike and hate. To be fair this is a common fault with the self righteous.

 

[alex397]

]
I like the way remainers selectively quote only part of posts.

You might need to look at the forum rules. One of which states:

• When quoting other members' posts, please attempt to quote only the parts relevant to your response. Quoting long posts in full should be avoided.”

 

[najaB]

The irreconcilables seem to be a mixture of geniune internationalists, European Nationalists who identify with the EU as a country not the UK...

A) There's nothing wrong with an internationalist viewpoint; and B) It's entirely possible to identify with more than one country - I presume from your posts that you're both proudly English and British.

 

[21C101]

A) There's nothing wrong with an internationalist viewpoint; and B) It's entirely possible to identify with more than one country - I presume from your posts that you're both proudly English and British.

Indeed it is. Not sure what you would think of the sort of English Nationalist who championed steady removal of powers from the Scottish government to Westmivster as part of a process of "ever closer union" though.

 

[najaB]

Not sure what you would think of the sort of English Nationalist who championed steady removal of powers from the Scottish government to Westmivster as part of a process of "ever closer union" though.

As long as it was negotiated and resulted in a true Union of Equals I wouldn't mind at all.

 

[edwin_m]

Freedom of Movement was fine when the majority of economies in the EU were at a similar level, but when you started to get economies that were at a lower level and significant influxes from these you are going to get problems. I have a Polish friend who lives near Worksop and there are high levels of polish and people from other Eastern European counties in that area and she understands why the local's may not be too happy about it because there are simply too many, and some of the factories around there up to Brexit at least would only employ Eastern Europeans. She also said if the situation was reversed with English in Poland some native Poles wouldn't be happy about it either. So as far I'm concerned we don't need freedom of movement with any country and it should be up to individual countries to decide their immigration policy, and short term work permits etc.

If TPP keeps to terms largely relating to trade and doesn't have a wide ranging remit like the EU then it doesn't really need to be democratic, we are not going to have a referendum on a trade deal with Japan we leave that to our government.

The British government at the time was strongly in favour of eastern expansion of the EU, partly to encourage the countries in question into the Western orbit but also, I think, to try to get the EU to broaden instead of deepening. The immigration issue is to a large degree because British companies weren't paying high enough wages to attract anyone other than people from low-wage countries who were prepared to live in very poor conditions to send money home. Osborne started increasing the minimum wage but too little too late.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2021 ==

Indeed it is. Not sure what you would think of the sort of English Nationalist who championed steady removal of powers from the Scottish government to Westmivster as part of a process of "ever closer union" though.

You mean like Westminster is doing now?

 

[37424]

If, as is entirely possible, the Euro is worth more than the pound at that point you may find that reluctance goes away.

Yes but the thing about keeping your own currency is it allows you keep your own fiscal control and I don't see the UK giving that up, in fact I think a single monitory policy for a whole load of different economies is an issue with the Euro, which of course then gives the argument towards closer integration, but in long term I think that's difficult for a whole bunch of countries that have different cultures, identities and languages etc, plus a whole issue of the EU being dominated by Germany and France.

In my view the closet the UK could ever consider be to the European Union in future would be a Norway type deal and become part of the single market, which would solve the third country issues and some of the paperwork and it wouldn't stop us doing trade deals with other countries, obviously the compromise that some Brexiteers wouldn't like be Freedom of Movement and closer alignment, but on the other hand it is what the likes of Farage campaigned on at the referendum even though he denies that now.

I certainly don't see Labour proposing to re-join, The Lib Dems yes, but despite being a Lib Dem supporter years ago I regard this party as one that lost the plot with no credibility since Joe Swinton's proposal to just cancel Brexit, and haven't regained it since.

Unfortunately it quite difficult to have a sensible debate about Brexit in this country because there are too many nut job Remainers and Leavers and it is a pity we didn't have a much better quality of debate on both sides at the time of the referendum.

 

[class ep-09]

The British government at the time was strongly in favour of eastern expansion of the EU, partly to encourage the countries in question into the Western orbit but also, I think, to try to get the EU to broaden instead of deepening. The immigration issue is to a large degree because British companies weren't paying high enough wages to attract anyone other than people from low-wage countries who were prepared to live in very poor conditions to send money home. Osborne started increasing the minimum wage but too little too late.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2021 ==


You mean like Westminster is doing now?

Just to add to your comment ( I am on your side of the argument ) .

It was British government that decided to open the borders for the new EU members in 2004 with no restrictions for anyone.

Other countries ( for example Germany , Austria and others) kept their borders ( job markets) closed for up to 7 years .

The “cool off” period is allowed under the EU rules of FoM, which UK made choice to not to apply at all.

Considering that besides of the UK only Sweden and Ireland allowed for “new “ members citizens to come without restrictions , there is no surprise that quite few of them arrived here in the following years .

Especially that the £££ was worth much more then.

 

[najaB]

In my view the closet the UK could ever consider be to the European Union in future would be a Norway type deal and become part of the single market, which would solve the third country issues and some of the paperwork and it wouldn't stop us doing trade deals with other countries, obviously the compromise that some Brexiteers wouldn't like be Freedom of Movement and closer alignment, but on the other hand it is what the likes of Farage campaigned on at the referendum even though he denies that now.

I agree that's the most that's likely in the next 10 to 15 years, but I'm quietly confident that we well have rejoined before I retire (2044 or thereabouts).

Though, saying that, I am resident in Scotland.

 

[21C101]

I agree that's the most that's likely in the next 10 to 15 years, but I'm quietly confident that we well have rejoined before I retire (2044 or thereabouts).

Though, saying that, I am resident in Scotland.

I'm quietly confident that neither the EU or single currency will stll exist in anything like it's current form in 2044 and will welcome Europes liberation when it implodes, which on current form, with them doubling down on the ever more ludicrous threats to block legitimately contracted vaccination exports and sieze factories and intellectual property rights while forgetting that key components of Pfizer EU made vaccines are only made in the UK, will be sooner than I expected.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm quietly confident that neither the EU or single currency will stll exist in anything like it's current form in 2044 and will welcome Europes liberation when it implodes, which on current form, with them doubling down on the ever more ludicrous threats to block legitimately contracted vaccination exports and sieze factories and intellectual property rights while forgetting that key components of Pfizer EU made vaccines are only made in the UK, will be sooner than I expected.

The UK will collapse long before the EU does.

 

[21C101]

The UK will collapse long before the EU does.

We will see

 

[najaB]

The UK will collapse long before the EU does.

I fear that the UK in it's current constitution has fewer than ten years left.

Did anyone see JRM decrying the use of "foreign languages" such as Welsh and Scots in parliament?

 

[Journeyman]

We will see

See, this is exactly why your claim not to hate the EU looks extremely hollow. You obviously want them to collapse, and will greet it gleefully, despite the chaos and suffering it will inevitably cause.

 

[21C101]

See, this is exactly why your claim not to hate the EU looks extremely hollow. You obviously want them to collapse, and will greet it gleefully, despite the chaos and suffering it will inevitably cause.

On the contrary I think it will end a huge amount of suffering in places like Spain and Greece.

Are you not allowed to think that the EU is bad for Europe and its people without being accused of irrationally hating it? A bit totalitarian isn't that?

Did anyone say Jehovah? BLASPHEMERS!

 

[najaB]

On the contrary I think it will end a huge amount of suffering in places like Spain and Greece.

Spanish and Greek agribusiness who have benefitted massively by tarrif and quota free access to the largest trading bloc in the world with no paperwork required, citizens who have been free to expand their search for employment across 26 other countries and finance ministers who have been able access funding at rates much more favourable than they'd get on the market or from the IMF might disagree.

 

[Journeyman]

Spanish and Greek agribusiness who have benefitted massively by tarrif and quota free access to the largest trading bloc in the world with no paperwork required, citizens who have been free to expand their search for employment across 26 other countries and finance ministers who have been able access funding at rates much more favourable than they'd get on the market or from the IMF might disagree.

Plus Greece's problems were very much of their own making, and would have been far worse without help from the EU.