Brexit matters

[py_megapixel]

There is one thing for certain in all this. Relations between the EU and the UK are extremely strained. I would go as far as to suggest relations have not been this strained in decades. I find attitudes like @21C101 of comparing the EU to a brutal dictatorship absolutely abhorrent. The pure fact that straight after we have left the EU the BoJo Govt's very first review is into workers rights is self-evident as to the great things about the EU. The EU has many many faults but every worker is entitled to rest breaks, holiday pay, overtime payments among other protections. Would a brutal dictatorship have such good workers rights protections? I doubt it!!

Excellent post.

 

[Dave1987]

See comment on relative maritime shipping costs vs trucking costs upthread.

A truck can travel the 1000 miles from Spain far far quicker than a ship can travel the 6000 miles from South Africa. The argument on higher transportation costs is a valid one. Otherwise, why would Spain not ship fruit to the UK??

 

[py_megapixel]

Theoretically, if you wanted to, you could put your Spanish oranges on a ship to bring them to the UK...

 

[najaB]

See comment on relative maritime shipping costs vs trucking costs upthread.

Consider also the value of time, and the difference between time-sensitive and insensitive goods.

 

[edwin_m]

There is one thing for certain in all this. Relations between the EU and the UK are extremely strained. I would go as far as to suggest relations have not been this strained in decades. I find attitudes like @21C101 of comparing the EU to a brutal dictatorship absolutely abhorrent. The pure fact that straight after we have left the EU the BoJo Govt's very first review is into workers rights is self-evident as to the great things about the EU. The EU has many many faults but every worker is entitled to rest breaks, holiday pay, overtime payments among other protections. Would a brutal dictatorship have such good workers rights protections? I doubt it!!

To which I would add the refusal of the UK, unlike every other country in the world apparently, to grant the EU representative full diplomatic status. A tiny gesture materially speaking but one that appears specifically calculated to annoy the EU (at a time when they could seriously impact our vaccine supply) and please the Daily Mail.

 

[Senex]

To which I would add the refusal of the UK, unlike every other country in the world apparently, to grant the EU representative full diplomatic status. A tiny gesture materially speaking but one that appears specifically calculated to annoy the EU (at a time when they could seriously impact our vaccine supply) and please the Daily Mail.

And because these things tend to go on strict reciprocity it would/will almost inevitably mean the downgrading of the status of the British representative to Brussels. Quite apart from cutting us off even more from the people Johnson still rather absurdly insists on calling our "friends and partners", this can only reduce our influence and the flow of informaton even further as we isolate ourselves from our neightbours.

Have others seen the Euler diagram that has been around on social media for the last week or two which makes our isolation very clear indeed:

 

[21C101]

A truck can travel the 1000 miles from Spain far far quicker than a ship can travel the 6000 miles from South Africa. The argument on higher transportation costs is a valid one. Otherwise, why would Spain not ship fruit to the UK??

But not necessarily cheaper. As the UK already imported 9% of South Africa's citrus exports despite the now abolished 16% tariff and EU phytosanitary bureacracy, it appears that someone has already worked out how to do it competitively.

Similar things will be happening with Carribean Cmmonwealth countries banana exports that were largely locked out by tariffs post 1973 in favour of places like French Guyana which is in the EU, and many other foodstuffs from places like South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

Fresh milk will likely see an increase in UK dairy farming over current years as non tariff barriers and delays at ports make importing it from the EU less competitive.

 

[najaB]

Similar things will be happening with Carribeann Cmmonwealth countries banana exports that were largely locked out by tariffs post 1973 in favour of places like French Guyana which is in the EU, and many other foodstuffs.

Actually, that's not correct (not just the fact that both Caribbean and Commonwealth are misspelled). APC countries were given preferential and/or tariff-free access to the EU market from 1975 to 2009. It was actually the dropping of that preferential access that had a seriously damaging effect on Dominica in particular. Note also that this preferential access would have continued if not for the USA raising an objection that it was a violation of WTO rules, on behalf of the Central American banana producers (mostly American-owned).

BBC News - EU cuts import tariffs in a bid to end 'banana wars'

news.bbc.co.uk

 

[davetheguard]

And because these things tend to go on strict reciprocity it would/will almost inevitably mean the downgrading of the status of the British representative to Brussels. Quite apart from cutting us off even more from the people Johnson still rather absurdly insists on calling our "friends and partners", this can only reduce our influence and the flow of informaton even further as we isolate ourselves from our neightbours.

Have others seen the Euler diagram that has been around on social media for the last week or two which makes our isolation very clear indeed:

Isn't the isolation actually even slightly worse than that as shown on the Euler diagram - Northern Ireland should be shown as in the Customs Union; as a result "UK" should just be shown as "GB"?

 

[21C101]

There is one thing for certain in all this. Relations between the EU and the UK are extremely strained. I would go as far as to suggest relations have not been this strained in decades. I find attitudes like @21C101 of comparing the EU to a brutal dictatorship absolutely abhorrent. The pure fact that straight after we have left the EU the BoJo Govt's very first review is into workers rights is self-evident as to the great things about the EU. The EU has many many faults but every worker is entitled to rest breaks, holiday pay, overtime payments among other protections. Would a brutal dictatorship have such good workers rights protections? I doubt it!!

I seem to recall the erstwhile communist states in eastern Europe had such protections going beyond that currently provided by the EU.

I also recall uber Remainer Mr Patten comparing the EU unfavourably with North Korea in terms of the Commissions secrecy and democratic deficit back in 2002.

While it dosent, have illegal detention in camps and other fascist tendencies, it lacks democratic accountabilty and seems to be obsessed with regulating everything, in some ways resembling a polite version of the Soviet Union.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of the effects of Brexit, it sounds like some retailers like Amazon are going to restrict what can be sent to Northern Ireland because of NI staying in the single market.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55820214

 

[21C101]

Isn't the isolation actually even slightly worse than that as shown on the Euler diagram - Northern Ireland should be shown as in the Customs Union; as a result "UK" should just be shown as "GB"?

Lets add the Commonwealth to that diagram and see how isolated we look?

 

[najaB]

Lets add the Commonwealth to that diagram and see how isolated we look?

How many Commonwealth countries located in Europe (geographically) are not already included in the diagram?

 

[SHD]

Lets add the Commonwealth to that diagram and see how isolated we look?

Oh, come on. The only thing that will be longer to complete than a Commonwealth free trade agreement is Crossrail.

 

[edwin_m]

While it dosent, have illegal detention in camps and other fascist tendencies, it lacks democratic accountabilty and seems to be obsessed with regulating everything, in some ways resembling a polite version of the Soviet Union.

The USSR had illegal detention almost to the end of its history, such as Andrei Sakharov. The EU never has. Comparing the two is absolutely ridiculous.

As to democratic accountability, you appear to favour it as long as it leads the UK back to a (possibly imagined) pre-1960s society, so I assume anyone who's in favour of multiculturalism wouldn't get a vote.

 

[XAM2175]

While it dosent, have illegal detention in camps and other fascist tendencies, it lacks democratic accountabilty and seems to be obsessed with regulating everything, in some ways resembling a polite version of the Soviet Union.

The UK conducted illegal detention in Northern Ireland for quite a period of time.

 

[class ep-09]

See comment on relative maritime shipping costs vs trucking costs upthread.

Not if you want to bring few truck loads not the whole ship of oranges.

Btw , which supermarket would want to order oranges weeks in advance ( quite long way from South Africa is it not?) , without knowing if they are going to need them, when they arrive?

Spanish oranges are at worst 48 hours away by lorry from south of Spain to the north and ferry from Spain to UK.

Even less than 48hrs if oranges are already stored near the north of Spain .

As for EU “punishing “ poor countries with tariffs , I think I need to educate you about EBA - Everything But Arms .

50 poorest countries in the world can export anything in any quantity except weapons to EU tariffs free .

South Africa does not qualify as it is not “that” poor.

At the end - pretty much countries / trading blocks use tariffs to protect their own food producing sector .

EU is not exception - it wants to protect its food industry (including Spanish oranges plantations ), and bless them for that, otherwise Eu’s supermarkets would full of US s...t fed meat , GMO crops etc.

You also forgot that this same EU tariffs that you do not like so much, protected UK farmers as well.

 

[21C101]

I will leave you all to it. Some of these comments are getting personal and unpleasant. Goodbye.

 

[Journeyman]

I will leave you all to it. Some of these comments are getting personal and unpleasant. Goodbye.

No-one has been personal or unpleasant at all. We've merely pointed out that much of what you've said is nonsense.

 

[najaB]

No-one has been personal or unpleasant at all. We've merely pointed out that much of what you've said is nonsense.

Confronting reality is often an unpleasant experience.

 

[REVUpminster]

When you leave a protection racket you get punished.

 

[Journeyman]

When you leave a protection racket you get punished.

Nope. When you leave a club, you lose the benefits.

 

[Dave1987]

I will leave you all to it. Some of these comments are getting personal and unpleasant. Goodbye.

So you have compared the EU to a brutal dictatorship, the Brexit debate has turned nasty with people being extremely nasty to each other. Yet you think comments are getting personal and unpleasant. Welcome to the UK Brexit has created! Maybe think about that before comparing a bloc, that many bitterly regret we left, to a brutal dictatorship.......

 

[21C101]

So you have compared the EU to a brutal dictatorship, the Brexit debate has turned nasty with people being extremely nasty to each other. Yet you think comments are getting personal and unpleasant. Welcome to the UK Brexit has created! Maybe think about that before comparing a bloc, that many bitterly regret we left, to a brutal dictatorship.......

That would be this EU?

"A pro-EU source at the company [AstraZenica] says "I understand Brexit better now"."

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1354019140084916225

 

[52290]

So you have compared the EU to a brutal dictatorship, the Brexit debate has turned nasty with people being extremely nasty to each other. Yet you think comments are getting,, personal and unpleasant. Welcome to the UK Brexit has created! Maybe think about that before comparing a bloc, that many bitterly regret we left, to a brutal dictatorship.......

In a spirit of reconciliation I will attempt to discuss not Brexit but, because it has been brought up on this thread, the important subject of oranges, both South African and Spanish. I eat a large orange everyday and I can tell you that Spanish navels are superior to any other orange. South African oranges are not as good by a long chalk. However I have to eat them both because Spanish are only available in our winter and are replaced by South African during summer. Oranges are seasonal and Brexit or no Brexit won't change that.

 

[Dave1987]

That would be this EU?

"A pro-EU source at the company [AstraZenica] says "I understand Brexit better now"."

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1354019140084916225

So you have compared the EU to a brutal dictatorship. And you bring up a dispute over vaccine distribution as your backup of calling it a brutal dictatorship but then complain that the conversation is turning personal and unpleasant? The current pandemic is making emotions run wild. I still believe it is abhorrent that you actually compare the EU to a brutal dictatorship. But then again judging by your attitude towards the EU why am I not surprised that the EU has entered into a petty squabble over the diplomatic status of the EU ambassador. Remember why the EU was created in the first point under the guise of the EEC? To stop wars/conflicts from breaking out in Europe again. I do not wish to see conflicts break out again. Language like that of which you use is how conflicts start.

Ow and just remember that glorious GB has one of the highest death counts per head of population from the pandemic. So we are no shining example of how to do things during a pandemic!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2021 ==

Ow @21C101 it looks like there might be a little more to the AZ - EU vaccine dispute than is being mainly reported.

"In fact, EU officials point out to me that EU money went into upgrading the facilities in the UK and that they fully expected it to be operational for them"

So EU money may be paying for the UK to get vaccine supply quicker. Any surprise emotions are running wild?

Coronavirus: EU demands UK-made AstraZeneca vaccine doses

The bloc says UK plants are obliged to help make up for possible shortfalls in EU production.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[21C101]

So you have compared the EU to a brutal dictatorship. And you bring up a dispute over vaccine distribution as your backup of calling it a brutal dictatorship but then complain that the conversation is turning personal and unpleasant? The current pandemic is making emotions run wild. I still believe it is abhorrent that you actually compare the EU to a brutal dictatorship. But then again judging by your attitude towards the EU why am I not surprised that the EU has entered into a petty squabble over the diplomatic status of the EU ambassador. Remember why the EU was created in the first point under the guise of the EEC? To stop wars/conflicts from breaking out in Europe again. I do not wish to see conflicts break out again. Language like that of which you use is how conflicts start.

Ow and just remember that glorious GB has one of the highest death counts per head of population from the pandemic. So we are no shining example of how to do things during a pandemic!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2021 ==

Ow @21C101 it looks like there might be a little more to the AZ - EU vaccine dispute than is being mainly reported.

"In fact, EU officials point out to me that EU money went into upgrading the facilities in the UK and that they fully expected it to be operational for them"

So EU money may be paying for the UK to get vaccine supply quicker. Any surprise emotions are running wild?

Coronavirus: EU demands UK-made AstraZeneca vaccine doses

The bloc says UK plants are obliged to help make up for possible shortfalls in EU production.

www.bbc.co.uk

UK placed contracts a full three months before the EU got round to doing it, EU have still not even approved it.

The contracts in both cases were best efforts not agreed contractual dates.

The EU have royally erred and are showing themselves to be, in the words of Liam Halligan as a spiteful and dysfunctional, shabby, protectionist bloc.

 

[Dave1987]

UK placed contracts a full three months before the EU got round to doing it, EU have still not even approved it.

The contracts in both cases were best efforts not agreed contractual dates.

The EU have royally erred and are showing themselves to be, in the words of Liam Halligan as a spiteful and dysfunctional, shabby, protectionist bloc.

Yes well after reading Liam Halligan's columns on what should happen to workers' rights post Brexit then I know why he hates the EU.

"A spiteful and dysfunctional, shabby, protectionist bloc" that have just scored a major trade deal with China?

Can I ask when you expect the UK to declare war on the EU? I believe Brexiteers like yourself were predicting that the EU would crumble as soon as the UK left. It hasn’t. In fact they have trade deals with countries the UK would dearly like to have right now. Seems the predictions of EU implosion once the UK left were nonsense, much like most of the pro Brexit arguments

 

[21C101]

Yes well after reading Liam Halligan's columns on what should happen to workers' rights post Brexit then I know why he hates the EU.

"A spiteful and dysfunctional, shabby, protectionist bloc" that have just scored a major trade deal with China?

Can I ask when you expect the UK to declare war on the EU? I believe Brexiteers like yourself were predicting that the EU would crumble as soon as the UK left. It hasn’t. In fact they have trade deals with countries the UK would dearly like to have right now. Seems the predictions of EU implosion once the UK left were nonsense, much like most of the pro Brexit arguments

Lets wait a few years on that rather than a few weeks. Goodnight.

 

[raetiamann]

So 21C101, these are our friends and neighbours from over the channel, who are the largest trading block available to us, yet all yu can do is to try and stir anti EU feelings. I really don't understand the mentality of portraying the EU as a brutal dictatorship, other than scoring cheap points.when maybe we should be looking at how this situation can be made to work, to try to salvage something from the deal.