Brexit matters

[DerekC]

Sounds as though the EU has learned something from negotiating Brexit with Boris, then!

 

[class ep-09]

Sounds as though the EU has learned something from negotiating Brexit with Boris, then!

Yuuup!
Never trust tories .

 

[REVUpminster]

Or the French for saying Sanofi could supply a vaccine (they are now changing production to the German biontech which takes time), or the Germans who have bought their own supply from pfizer.

The other EU members did not want us to leave because we were the buffer between the two. English was the common language with a nod to the French as secondary but how long will that last.

 

[Beemax]

Or the French for saying Sanofi could supply a vaccine (they are now changing production to the German biontech which takes time), or the Germans who have bought their own supply from pfizer.

The other EU members did not want us to leave because we were the buffer between the two. English was the common language with a nod to the French as secondary but how long will that last.

It will last. In EU meetings where I've been involved there has not always been translation and English has always been used. The Eastern European MS, and the Nordic countries, generally don't like French. It tends to be a slightly Americanised English (perhaps reflecting TV viewing habits) but English in some form will remain the lingua franca.

 

[najaB]

Or the French for saying Sanofi could supply a vaccine...

This keeps getting mentioned like it is something unusual or underhanded. There are well over 100 vaccine development projects registered with the WHO, most of which aren't going to produce anything useful. That's the nature of any drug/vaccine development - most of the time they don't pan out. I would be very surprised if the Sanofi vaccine was the only one that the French government backed - the US government backed six or seven if I remember correctly.

 

[SHD]

It will last. In EU meetings where I've been involved there has not always been translation and English has always been used. The Eastern European MS, and the Nordic countries, generally don't like French. It tends to be a slightly Americanised English (perhaps reflecting TV viewing habits) but English in some form will remain the lingua franca.

Not only that, but English is still an official language in two EU countries and a working language in a third.

 

[Dave1987]

Or the French for saying Sanofi could supply a vaccine (they are now changing production to the German biontech which takes time), or the Germans who have bought their own supply from pfizer.

The other EU members did not want us to leave because we were the buffer between the two. English was the common language with a nod to the French as secondary but how long will that last.

Hold on a cotton picking minute!! Last March the entire world was desperate for every biotech and pharmaceutical company to produce a vaccine. GSK (a British pharmaceutical company) teamed up with Sanofi to use their biotech technology. The world was begging for as many vaccine developments as possible, not all of them will be successful. Don’t start digging on Sanofi or the French for starting development when it was a risk for them to do so.

 

[REVUpminster]

A risk that did not pay off. If the French had hedged their bets and not have such influence on the rest of the EU the EU would not have been in this position.

 

[najaB]

A risk that did not pay off. If the French had hedged their bets and not have such influence on the rest of the EU the EU would not have been in this position.

They're in the position that they're in because the supplier who accepted an order for 100M doses now says that they can only provide 25M. Nothing to do with the completely separate order that they placed with Sanofi. If that order had panned out then they would be in a better situation than they are now.

 

[Dave1987]

A risk that did not pay off. If the French had hedged their bets and not have such influence on the rest of the EU the EU would not have been in this position.

So what if everything pharmaceutical company didn’t bother to start on a vaccine just in case it didn’t pay off? The world would not have any vaccines right now. The world, including the UK was begging every biotech company to develop a vaccine. All of them, including GSK/Sanofi, could have said no thanks it’s too bigger risk.

 

[notlob.divad]

The EU policy was to rely on French Sanofi to provide the bulk of vaccines and other countries pay top dollar for the German pfizer vaccine.

That is a fundamentally untrue statement.


You don't have to read the test if you hate the Guardian, but the infor graphic at the bottom provides a good overview of the variaty of doses ordered for each market agaisnt their populations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...es-investigation-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-plant
"Guardian graphic. Source: Duke Global Health Innovation Center. Data as of 25 January."

You will see that with the exception of the UK's support for the Novavax vaccine, the distribution of risk exposure to different suppliers is relatively similar.

The EU does have more exposure to Pfizer than the UK, but both have bet heavily on the Astrazenica (Oxford) with a slightly heavier bias in the UK. However in both cases their exposure to Sanofi is significantly smaller and relatively equal compared to the relevent population sizes.

Now obviously this doesn't look at the timing of signing the contracts, which is obviously a major part of what has ogne on behind the scenes, and at this point I am not providing an opinion on the rights and wrongs of any of it. However the statement you made is fundamentally false and any argument you make on the back of it is meritless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

A risk that did not pay off. If the French had hedged their bets and not have such influence on the rest of the EU the EU would not have been in this position.

Again, I will point out that you are making an asumption based upon a false assertion. Yes the EU did buy more doses from Sanofi, (of course they did they bought more doses from almost everyone). However proportionally to the total doses ordered, they are no more exposed to Sanofi than the UK is.

 

[21C101]

Some enjoyable reading in that well known Eurosceptic rag "The Guardian" today:

"There is a true coach-crash quality to the EU’s reaction to being outfoxed by the UK on vaccine procurement. The commission’s pram has been dramatically emptied of all its toys. It’s like watching an endlessly patient and mild-mannered social studies teacher finally lose it and head-butt a pupil for beating him in a quiz."

Just what we needed, a new strain of nationalism – the vaccine kind | Marina Hyde

It’s a tribute to the ingenuity of the human spirit that the UK and the EU can still come up with new sources of bitter dispute, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dave1987]

Yes @21C101 I am sure you are taking great pleasure in watching what is developing, but this has been simmering for a while. From the UK's refusal to grant full diplomatic status to the EU ambassador to border crossing disputes. None of this is good for the long term trade relations between the UK and EU. One thing that very much saddens me is that Brexiteers like yourself seem to be taking extreme amounts of pleasure in all this. This is not Soviet Russia no matter how much you abhorrently keep comparing them to Soviet Russia. These are our closest allies and trading partners. At the moment anyone would think we were enemies. It is very very sad to see Brexiteers joy in all this, no matter how much the EU has made errors. The UK has made massive errors of its own!!

 

[21C101]

EU are not very popular in Ireland either tonight.

"EU decision to invoke Article 16 [of the Northern Ireland Protocol], clearly without prior notice has managed to unite the British and Irish governments, Labour, the DUP and SDLP in disagreement with the move... When did that last happen?"

After all those years solemly lecturing us on the need to avoid a hard border on Island of Ireland, they impose a vaccine hard border less than a month after we left.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1355222414746148865

Aunty Arlene is not happy:

“This is an incredible act of hostility. By triggering Article 16 in this manner, the European Union has once again shown it is prepared to use Northern Ireland when it suits their interests but in the most despicable manner — over the provision of a vaccine which is designed to save lives.

At the first opportunity the EU has placed a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland over the supply chain of the Coronavirus vaccine.

With the European Union using Article 16 in such an aggressive and most shameful way, it is now time for our Government to step up. I will be urging the Prime Minister to act and use robust measures including Article 16 to advance the interests of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1355222414746148865?ref_src=tt

 

[class ep-09]

EU are not very popular in Ireland either tonight.

"EU decision to invoke Article 16 [of the Northern Ireland Protocol], clearly without prior notice has managed to unite the British and Irish governments, Labour, the DUP and SDLP in disagreement with the move... When did that last happen?"

After all those years solemly lecturing us on the need to avoid a hard border on Island of Ireland, they impose a vaccine hard border less than a month after we left.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1355222414746148865

Aunty Arlene is not happy:

“This is an incredible act of hostility. By triggering Article 16 in this manner, the European Union has once again shown it is prepared to use Northern Ireland when it suits their interests but in the most despicable manner — over the provision of a vaccine which is designed to save lives.

At the first opportunity the EU has placed a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland over the supply chain of the Coronavirus vaccine.

With the European Union using Article 16 in such an aggressive and most shameful way, it is now time for our Government to step up. I will be urging the Prime Minister to act and use robust measures including Article 16 to advance the interests of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.”

https://mobile.twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1355222414746148865?ref_src=tt

Surprised?

EU is trying to protect their interests and you can whine and moan as much as you like .


Remember, any country and trading block can impose export bans to UK now on any product, and you can simply do nothing to prevent it.

Essentially, anyone can screw UK , as it is not associated with any trading block.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What a terrible state of affairs. They clearly don't trust us, which is no suprise considering how we have behaved.

Unusual panicked behaviour from the EU, again not surprising considering what it would look like if recently leaving UK did better for vaccines.

Terrible for both sides for relationships to deteriorate this way so fast after brexit. Suppose everyone is desperate now with the dire economic consequences of what is playing out.

 

[REVUpminster]

I'll keep saying it; the EU is the biggest protection racket in the world. The individual countries are not but Brussels is. The Kray twins must have written their handbook. "come into our club and pay for our protection"

 

[class ep-09]

I'll keep saying it; the EU is the biggest protection racket in the world. The individual countries are not but Brussels is. The Kray twins must have written their handbook. "come into our club and pay for our protection"

Says , someone who lives in a country that bought 370mil vaccines against COVID ( 6 x the population) and blocks other countries from buying for themselves.

You won, get over it.

 

[21C101]

Says , someone who lives in a country that.....blocks other countries from buying for themselves.

Got any evidence to back up that claim?

 

[Doppelganger]

Got any evidence to back up that claim?

367 million doses ordered.

It's not difficult to look this stuff up.

Canada and UK among countries with most vaccine doses ordered per person

UK has more than five doses per person on order, in sharp contrast to developing countries

www.theguardian.com

 

[21C101]

367 million doses ordered.

It's not difficult to look this stuff up.

Canada and UK among countries with most vaccine doses ordered per person

UK has more than five doses per person on order, in sharp contrast to developing countries

www.theguardian.com

Yes we know how many doses have been ordered which is why I omitted that bit from my quote.

It is the claim that the UK is blocking supply of vaccines to other countries that I would like to see some evidence of.

 

[Doppelganger]

Yes we know how many doses have been ordered which is why I omitted that bit from my quote.

It is the claim that the UK is blocking supply of vaccines to other countries that I would like to see some evidence of.

It is certainly being considered:

UK weighs vaccine export restrictions

The move follows fears that vaccines produced in the UK could be diverted to the EU.

www.politico.eu

The U.K. government has sought legal advice on preventing coronavirus vaccines or their ingredients being exported, suggesting that ministers are actively considering countermeasures they could deploy if other countries start restricting cross-border movements of vaccines.

 

[21C101]

This is not Soviet Russia no matter how much you abhorrently keep comparing them to Soviet Russia.

I and many others consider it as a valid comparison, not in terms of the repression and gulags, which owed more to Russian Imperial authoritarian political culture than Marx, but in terms of a regulating, poorly run, ineffective bureaucracy with poor accountability and increasingly a socialist constitution and culture. It is essentially a union of socialist-lite states and councils (Russian for Council is Soviet).

It is in fact far closer to Marx's proposed utopian state than the USSR ever was, because that is exactly what many of its supporters want it to be, and the collapse of the USSR unleashed them to work towards this, finally free of the shackles of Russias obscene version of Communism restraining them by association.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2021 ==

It is certainly being considered:

UK weighs vaccine export restrictions

The move follows fears that vaccines produced in the UK could be diverted to the EU.

www.politico.eu

Right so seeking legal advice on the matter only in the context of retaliatory action against any state (or pretended state) doing the same to the UK.

Which given that the UK government has funded the Oxford production lines in the UK is fair enough in the eyes of anyone impartial or reasonable.

 

[class ep-09]

I and many others consider it as a valid comparison, not in terms of the repression and gulags, which owed more to Russian Imperial authoritarian political culture than Marx, but in terms of a regulating, poorly run, ineffective bureaucracy with poor accountability and increasingly a socialist constitution and culture. It is essentially a union of socialist-lite states and councils (Russian for Council is Soviet).

It is in fact far closer to Marx's proposed utopian state than the USSR ever was, because that is exactly what many of its supporters want it to be, and the collapse of the USSR unleashed them to work towards this, finally free of the shackles of Russias obscene version of Communism restraining them by association.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2021 ==


Right so seeking legal advice on the matter only in the context of retaliatory action against any state (or pretended state) doing the same to the UK.

Which given that the UK government has funded the Oxford production lines in the UK is fair enough in the eyes of anyone impartial or reasonable.

It was UK and EU who founded development of the AZ vaccine and production lines in the UK ( and abroad).

 

[21C101]

It was UK and EU who founded development of the AZ vaccine and production lines in the UK ( and abroad).

It was the UK who founded it.

The EU took three months longer to sign a contract and get going than the UK.

There were similar production issues at the UK factories but they were resolved three months back because they started work three months before the EU factories did, so resolved similar issues that the EU factories are now having.

Which is why the UK had to wait until Christmas to start the programme not autumn as the UK government originally hoped.

The EU have royally erred and are being spiteful and vinductive. Raiding vaccine factories in Belgium and threatening to take them over wartime style hardly gives confidence in the EU as a place to base your production.

The clumsy (now cancelled) attempt yesterday by the EU to impose a hard border on the Island of Ireland without even notifying the RoI government is the icing on the cake.

Anyone who dared to put their head above the parapet and support Brexit has had to put up with the most dreadful bulllying for the last five years being smeared bynwealthy and influential people as thick, ignorant, racist and too stupid to be trusted with a vote on such mateers. I have to admit I did not expect my decision to vote to leave to be vindicated, so obviously, so quickly after we finally left de facto at the end of December.

The UK needs, however, to show charity and magnaminity. I can think of no better way of doing this than to set up vaccine stations on all main roads just north of the inner Irish border and invite all RoI residents in the same age/health categories as NI residents currently being vaccinated to have vaccinations at them free of charge.

 

[class ep-09]

Got any evidence to back up that claim?

Partially , I wanted my previous post to be ridiculous as much, as the claim of another forum member that , EU is protection racket .

That member said , the EU is protection racket claiming that , he has nothing against individual countries but hates Brussels for its actions ( “ protection racket”).
This same forum member forgot that , Brussels follows, what the EU countries want collectively .

Also, to say that Brussels imposes “protection racket” and at this same time all EU countries + EEA can trade between themselves tariffs free , quota free is just nuts.

Also EU allows 50 poorest countries to export tariff free , quota free to the EU all products except weapons .

All trading blocks and individual countries can and are protecting their markets .
WTO rules require them to do so ( imposition of tariffs between trading sides is not EU’s concept) .

 

[Doppelganger]

The clumsy (now cancelled) attempt yesterday by the EU to impose a hard border on the Island of Ireland without even notifying the RoI government is the icing on the cake.

But they realised their mistake and retracted it.

You can't say the same about most Brexiteers or those in government who will hold the ship on its course regardless of what is in front of them.

Incidentally, the DUP asked for article 16 to be invoked 16 days ago. Their request still hasn't been retracted.

 

[Dave1987]

@21C101 yes I’m sure you are taking immense pleasure in this massive crisis.

And I totally and completely disagree with you about Brexiteers having to cower in the corner about declaring you support for Brexit. As a Remainer I was verbally abused by many many Brexiteers . I am British by birth and was basically told that I was more than welcome to leave Britain and go somewhere else if I disagreed with Brexit and that I was a traitor. I met a few Brexiteers who could articulate their argument well but you have proven to be exactly like most Brexiteers I met in the past.

Maybe it’s time to start healing bridges with the EU after such petty things like refusal to give the EU ambassador full diplomatic rights and threatening to break international law.

The UK is *not* a shining beam of light of keeping its word and being honest and charitable.

 

[REVUpminster]

Partially , I wanted my previous post to be ridiculous as much, as the claim of another forum member that , EU is protection racket .

That member said , the EU is protection racket claiming that , he has nothing against individual countries but hates Brussels for its actions ( “ protection racket”).
This same forum member forgot that , Brussels follows, what the EU countries want collectively .

Also, to say that Brussels imposes “protection racket” and at this same time all EU countries + EEA can trade between themselves tariffs free , quota free is just nuts.

Also EU allows 50 poorest countries to export tariff free , quota free to the EU all products except weapons .

All trading blocks and individual countries can and are protecting their markets .
WTO rules require them to do so ( imposition of tariffs between trading sides is not EU’s concept) .

I don't remember using the word hates Brussel for it's actions.

Must be myopic Europhillia. I'll have to redact my comments in future.

I did not think the EU were importing weapons from poor countries. They might be selling them tariff free?

 

[najaB]

I'll keep saying it; the EU is the biggest protection racket in the world

Repeatedly saying something doesn't make it true. What next, are you going to hold your breath until we agree with you?