Brexit matters

[birchesgreen]

When this red wall live through the fall out of Brexit they could well be looking to turn back to Labour or something. So a Labour that didn’t vote in a Brexit **** show might be a good idea.

Brexit will deliver votes away from Brexit MPs far better than anything else

I suspect Covid will be a nicely convenient scapegoat moving on.

 

[edwin_m]

Brexit: How do voters now feel about it?

It may have reached its final stage but UK voters are as divided as ever, says Sir John Curtice.

www.bbc.co.uk

YouGov has regularly asked people the question: "In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to leave the European Union?"
During the last three months, on average, 39% have said that the decision was right while 49% have stated it was wrong.

In a couple of their recent polls, Kantar asked people to choose between these two options - 51% backed staying out and 49% backed applying to rejoin. This points to a country that is still divided down the middle on Europe.

 

[Vespa]

When this red wall live through the fall out of Brexit they could well be looking to turn back to Labour or something. So a Labour that didn’t vote in a Brexit **** show might be a good idea.

Brexit will deliver votes away from Brexit MPs far better than anything else

Therein lies the problem, "Remainers" have not accepted that we have left, then proceed to insult Brexiters, many posts have been deleted on that basis, also use every opportunity to deride the process or any possible deal itself, they haven't moved beyond 2016 and is still living in a time warp, the whole thing has moved on since, we have also left the EU entirely so rejoin would be as a totally new applicant, a clear non starter.

The Red Wall voters deal with their own reality not Remainer's fantasy, they haven't forgotten how they were insulted and derided by Momentum activists and extreme Remainers, Labour was warned about their behavior toward their core voters, it was ignored, when they lost, instead of examining why they lost they wrapped themselves in martyrs cloth and spoke of traitors leaving the "cause", such delusions will only condemn Labour to lose again and again.

I have voted Labour in the past but I couldn't bring myself to vote for a Communist party that does fake virtue signalling and gesture politics spin, Clement Atlee would spinning in his grave if he had known how Labour had turned out today.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes poor hard done by Brexiters, they never insult Remainers of course.

 

[radamfi]

Labour needs to finally embrace proportional representation to avoid something as insane as Brexit happening again. There needs to be a pact between all non-Tory parties to avoid splitting the vote at the next election to enable PR to get through after the next election.

 

[37424]

Therein lies the problem, "Remainers" have not accepted that we have left, then proceed to insult Brexiters, many posts have been deleted on that basis, also use every opportunity to deride the process or any possible deal itself, they haven't moved beyond 2016 and is still living in a time warp, the whole thing has moved on since, we have also left the EU entirely so rejoin would be as a totally new applicant, a clear non starter.

The Red Wall voters deal with their own reality not Remainer's fantasy, they haven't forgotten how they were insulted and derided by Momentum activists and extreme Remainers, Labour was warned about their behavior toward their core voters, it was ignored, when they lost, instead of examining why they lost they wrapped themselves in martyrs cloth and spoke of traitors leaving the "cause", such delusions will only condemn Labour to lose again and again.

I have voted Labour in the past but I couldn't bring myself to vote for a Communist party that does fake virtue signalling and gesture politics spin, Clement Atlee would spinning in his grave if he had known how Labour had turned out today.

Yes there were some Remainers who didn't accept the decision especially the Lib Dems who although I have voted Lib Dem in the past won't be voting for them again anytime soon. But the main problem Remainer's like myself had was this No Deal narrative that was pushed after the referendum that only No Deal was really leaving when all the vote said was do we leave yes or no, it was then up to the government to decide on the terms of leaving and any future relationship, but according to the Hard Brexiteers as it didn't say anything about a deal on the ballot paper it apparently meant No Deal which is crazy especially when all the main leave politicians implied a deal at the referendum, some of course then changed their position (Farage) afterwards.

 

[dgl]

I suspect Covid will be a nicely convenient scapegoat moving on.

Yes, any financial hardship will just be blamed on Covid, even if a big reason why we will be in the financial turd will be because of Brexit.

 

[37424]

Labour needs to finally embrace proportional representation to avoid something as insane as Brexit happening again. There needs to be a pact between all non-Tory parties to avoid splitting the vote at the next election to enable PR to get through after the next election.

But the issue with proportional representation is that it would require coalition governments which most people in this country don't seem to like. it would also cause the Labour party to split and possibly the Tory party as well.

 

[dgl]

Yes there were some Remainers who didn't accept the decision especially the Lib Dems who although I have voted Lib Dem in the past won't be voting for them again anytime soon. But the main problem Remainer's like myself had was this no deal narrative that was pushed after the referendum that only No Deal was really leaving when all the vote said was do we leave yes or no, it was then up to the government to decide on the terms of leaving and any future relationship, but according to the Hard Brexiteers as it didn't say anything about a deal on the ballot paper it apparently meant no deal which is crazy especially when all the main leave politicians implied a deal, some of course then changed their position (Farage) afterwards.

I reckon a lot of Brexiteers knew no-deal would never get past most voters and so they realised that if they went big on how there would be a good deal and we would be much better off whilst playing the immigration card at the same time they would win a lot of people over, then once they got the result they wanted could then claim that all the leave voters want completely out, with no trade deal at all. Especially because the question was so vague and so we have no idea of what kind of Brexit each voter actually wanted.

 

[radamfi]

But the issue with proportional representation is that it would require coalition governments which most people in this country don't seem to like. it would also cause the Labour party to split and possibly the Tory party as well.

The UK has only had recent experience of coalition 2010-2015, however Scotland has had it for most of its Parliament's existence. Labour and Conservatives haven't split in Scotland, probably because they are still offshoots of the UK wide party, but if they did that would be no bad thing. We may well end up with grand coalitions of a Tony Blair style Labour faction and a Heath style Conservative faction.

 

[najaB]

it would also cause the Labour party to split and possibly the Tory party as well

Somewhat of topic, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Many countries do quite well with a multitude of smaller parties, rather that two juggernauts like we have.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes in this country we have two big main parties which are coalitions themselves, though recently those coalitions have become rather strained.

 

[Vespa]

Labour needs to finally embrace proportional representation to avoid something as insane as Brexit happening again. There needs to be a pact between all non-Tory parties to avoid splitting the vote at the next election to enable PR to get through after the next election.

We already had a referendum on proportional representation and it was firmly rejected.

 

[radamfi]

We already had a referendum on proportional representation and it was firmly rejected.

See, this is typical of the blatant lying we have become accustomed to over the last few years. Everyone knows the AV referendum was nothing to do with PR yet people persist in saying it. The sad fact is there are enough gullible people around so this tactic works.

 

[Vespa]

See, this is typical of the blatant lying we have become accustomed to over the last few years. Everyone knows the AV referendum was nothing to do with PR yet people persist in saying it. The sad fact is there are enough gullible people around so this tactic works.

AV is form of proportional representation using run off voting methods rather than first past the post as however it's rejected because it would create a perpetual coalition government resulting in weaker government, imagine a coalition government during the Brexit negotiations ! You need a firm decisive majority government that a FPP will give.

It is fortunate that it didn't happen.

 

[najaB]

imagine a coalition government during the Brexit negotiations ! You need a firm decisive majority government that a FPP will give.

Indeed. The majority Conservative government has been instrumental in delivering the timely, clear, comprehensive Brexit deal that we...

Sorry, couldn't complete that with a straight face.

The fact that we have a majority government that represents a minority of the electorate is largely responsible for the complete and total ****s-up of the last year.

Gov.uk has had a banner saying "Get ready for Brexit" for almost three years, yet we *still* don't know what Brexit we are supposed to be getting ready for seven days before Brexit is complete.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder how countries which use varying forms of Proportional Representation like New Zealand, Australia, Germany, Finland, Switzerland, Norway or Sweden cope? Presumably they're ungovernable disaster prone nations?

 

[radamfi]

AV is form of proportional representation

Stop lying!

 

[najaB]

Stop lying!

Could be lying or it could be genuine ignorance.

 

[birchesgreen]

Both sides seem to be both cheering and jeering this deal, which is an indication of how bad it actually is.

 

[Ianno87]

Conspiracy theory of day: Has Boris stalled the EU deal discussion for long enough to deliberately be able to announce it as 'good news' on Christmas Eve?

AV is form of proportional representation using run off voting methods rather than first past the post as however it's rejected because it would create a perpetual coalition government resulting in weaker government, imagine a coalition government during the Brexit negotiations ! You need a firm decisive majority government that a FPP will give.

It is fortunate that it didn't happen.

Whuh? It's been a majoirty government since 2015 (propped up by the DUP 2017-2019) and it's taken us 4 and a half years and three prime ministers to get to a finalised version of Brexit. Hardly "decisive"! The problem was the demands of one side being both unrealistic and over-riding the demands of another sizeable part of the population

A coalition government may genuinely have helped avoid the "meaningful votes" stalemate we ended up in under Theresa May.

 

[dosxuk]

AV is form of proportional representation

It really isn't. You might want to look up what AV and PR actually are before coming out with statements like that.

Worth noting that PR would have delivered a sizable Brexit party contingent of MPs to Westminster if it had been in place at the last election.

 

[Ianno87]

Both sides seem to be both cheering and jeering this deal, which is an indication of how bad it actually is.

£5 says it turns out we may as well have just Remained...

 

[Senex]

We already had a referendum on proportional representation and it was firmly rejected.

No we didn't — as has been pointed out here a good many times, what was on offer was not proportional representation.

 

[Spamcan81]

We already had a referendum on proportional representation and it was firmly rejected.

On one form of proportional representation. The choice was quite specifically limited to that, not PR in general which comes in many forms.

 

[radamfi]

If the deal includes a replacement for EHIC then that will keep quite a few people happy. I can't really see why even a Brexiteer would be against that. Reciprocal healthcare benefits British tourism.

 

[najaB]

I can't really see why even a Brexiteer would be against that.

Because it has "European" in the name, of course.

 

[Ianno87]

If the deal includes a replacement for EHIC then that will keep quite a few people happy. I can't really see why even a Brexiteer would be against that. Reciprocal healthcare benefits British tourism.

The sort of Brexiter that thinks "I don't need to go abroad, there's nothing wrong with holidays in this country" (translation: it scares me a little bit that I might have to deal with people not speaking English, so I'll holiday in Prestatyn instead)

 

[dgl]

The sort of Brexiter that thinks "I don't need to go abroad, there's nothing wrong with holidays in this country" (translation: it scares me a little bit that I might have to deal with people not speaking English, so I'll holiday in Prestatyn instead)

Send 'em to Pontins as a punishment

 

[nlogax]

If the deal includes a replacement for EHIC then that will keep quite a few people happy. I can't really see why even a Brexiteer would be against that. Reciprocal healthcare benefits British tourism.

As I understand it the 'replacement' for EHIC is merely an agreement to provide dialysis and oxygen treatments for UK citizens in specific circumstances from Jan 1st for a year.

Of course today's deal announcement may now enhance that but I highly doubt it.