Brexit matters

[Chester1]

I haven't heard much discussion about future EU/UK relationships and how they are supposed to work in future, especially if you don't get married. Bizarrely, the widely acclaimed Renault advert is the closest I've seen to any acknowledgement of this issue.

All immigration of EU citizens (excluding those of Ireland) will be subject to same immigration controls as citizens of any other country. People can obtain "spouse" visas without being married. One of my friends (British) has looked into it for moving here with her partner and cohabitation is sufficient. I imagine its more difficult to prove a relationship is genuine if a couple aren't married or living together. There are financial requirements too.

EU citizens can bring a non EU partner to live with them in other member states with minimal requirements. EU member states are allowed to impose strict requirements on partners of their own citizens (as the UK has done), but not on partners of Citizens of other member states. So an EU citizen and British Citizen will be able to live together in 26 out of 27 EU countries + the EEA countries but not necessarily either of their home countries....!

 

[radamfi]

All immigration of EU citizens (excluding those of Ireland) will be subject to same immigration controls as citizens of any other country. People can obtain "spouse" visas without being married. One of my friends (British) has looked into it for moving here with her partner and cohabitation is sufficient. I imagine its more difficult to prove a relationship is genuine if a couple aren't married or living together. There are financial requirements too.

EU citizens can bring a non EU partner to live with them in other member states with minimal requirements. EU member states are allowed to impose strict requirements on partners of their own citizens (as the UK has done), but not on partners of Citizens of other member states. So an EU citizen and British Citizen will be able to live together in 26 out of 27 EU countries + the EEA countries but not necessarily either of their home countries....!

This isn't acceptable.

 

[Chester1]

This isn't acceptable.

Why would EU citizens be treated differently to non EU citizens once the transition ends? Why would the EU treat British citizens any differently to other citizens of third countries?

The financial requirement in the UK is an income of £18,600 (combined income of sponsor and applicant).

I don't know what EU members set for their own citizens but requirements for citizens of one EU state living in another member state with a non EU partner are low. This is because imposing additional requirements on non EU spouses of citizens of other member states would limit their freedom of movement. FOM doesn't apply in an EU citizen's home state so their government can choose the requirements for non EU spouse visas.

 

[radamfi]

Why would EU citizens be treated differently to non EU citizens once the transition ends? Why would the EU treat British citizens any differently to other citizens of third countries?

The financial requirement in the UK is an income of £18,600 (combined income of sponsor and applicant).

I don't know what EU members set for their own citizens but requirements for citizens of one EU state living in another member state with a non EU partner are low. This is because imposing additional requirements on non EU spouses of citizens of other member states would limit their freedom of movement. FOM doesn't apply in an EU citizen's home state so their government can choose the requirements for non EU spouse visas.

There should have been adequate protection for relationships in the Withdrawal Agreement. You can't seriously expect people to start living together just as they start dating.

The Renault advert shows that we expect cross Channel relationships to be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2020 ==

There is not enough awareness about this issue. When people start to meet next year there will be outrage.

 

[Chester1]

There should have been adequate protection for relationships in the Withdrawal Agreement. You can't seriously expect people to start living together just as they start dating.

The Renault advert shows that we expect cross Channel relationships to be viable.

I thought you meant in future. Under the withdrawal agreement for relationships currently in existence EU citizens can bring that partner to the UK and a Brit living on the continent can do the same. I don't think that applies to future relationships. I.e. an EU Citizen living in the UK who forms a relationship next year would be in the same position as a Brit is (and the nationality of the partner would be irrelevant).

 

[radamfi]

I thought you meant in future.

Yes, I mean in future. This at least needs to be covered under the deal that may or may not be being agreed.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Hopefully a positive of the lorries packed into every available space in East Kent, is that it might make people realise just how important cross-channel trade is (Kent voted 59% Leave by the way). Perhaps I’m being a bit too hopeful.

Maybe if 59% of the population of Kent left they could fit the lorries on the empty driveways?

 

[37424]

Well ITV News seem to think its a done deal the question is now how much resistance there will be from the Brexit fanatics in the Tory Party.

 

[radamfi]

Well ITV News seem to think its a done deal the question is now how much resistance there will be from the Brexit fanatics in the Tory Party.

Nothing will satisfy them. I wouldn't be surprised if Farage is Tweeting about a sell out.

 

[Chester1]

Yes, I mean in future. This at least needs to be covered under the deal that may or may not be being agreed.

Why would it be? The withdrawal agreement was to settle the UK share of the EU debt, agree an arrangement for Northern Ireland and to settle the rights of existing immigrants, both British and from EU27. The agreement protects rights for existing relationships.

In the long term why should it be easier for a Brit or German (resident in the UK) to sponsor a Dutch partner to move to the UK than an American or an Indian? Why should it be easier for an Italian to sponsor a British partner than an Australian partner?

Well ITV News seem to think its a done deal the question is now how much resistance there will be from the Brexit fanatics in the Tory Party.

Should be same treatment as the die hard Tory remainers got last year - vote for it or have the whip withdrawn. Any Tory who votes against a deal is voting against the number one policy of their parties manifesto and should be kicked out for doing it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Should be same treatment as the die hard Tory remainers got last year - vote for it or have the whip withdrawn. Any Tory who votes against a deal is voting against the number one policy of their parties manifesto and should be kicked out for doing it.

Whilst I don't disagree, I fear that we will both be extremely disappointed...

 

[radamfi]

In the long term why should it be easier for a Brit or German (resident in the UK) to sponsor a Dutch partner to move to the UK than an American or an Indian? Why should it be easier for an Italian to sponsor a British partner than an Australian partner?

I don't see how making it difficult to date someone in our vicinity helps people date people from other continents. You are taking like a Brexiteer.

 

[Chester1]

Whilst I don't disagree, I fear that we will both be extremely disappointed...

I don't know, an embittered ex Tory MP can't write letters of no confidence that count towards the 15% needed to trigger Tory leadership contests...

I don't see how making it difficult to date someone in our vicinity helps people date people from other continents. You are taking like a Brexiteer.

I wouldn't describe any other country as "in our vicinity" when it comes to relationships! I am not arguing that it should be difficult! I am arguing that any partner of British citizens or residents should be assessed for a visa based on them as an individual and their relationship, not based on their nationality.

 

[radamfi]

I wouldn't describe any other country as "in our vicinity" when it comes to relationships!

Your example of the Netherlands is basically next door. I can be at Gatwick in a few minutes from here and the flight to Schiphol is only about 45 minutes. I don't think of that trip as anything special. Going 400 miles to Scotland is a bigger trip.

 

[Chester1]

Your example of the Netherlands is basically next door. I can be at Gatwick in a few minutes from here and the flight to Schiphol is only about 45 minutes. I don't think of that trip as anything special. Going 400 miles to Scotland is a bigger trip.

That makes it more likely that you will form and maintain a relationship with someone living in Netherlands than from further away. It doesn't explain why your Dutch partner should be treated differently than if you had met someone with non EU citizenship. What if your partner was a non EU citizen living in Netherlands (which rarely allows dual citizenship). They have no FOM rights. Existing relationships of EU citizens are protected by the withdrawal agreement because the situation has changed during their relationship.

 

[radamfi]

That makes it more likely that you will form and maintain a relationship with someone living in Netherlands than from further away. It doesn't explain why your Dutch partner should be treated differently than if you had met someone with non EU citizenship. What if your partner was a non EU citizen living in Netherlands (which rarely allows dual citizenship). They have no FOM rights. Existing relationships of EU citizens are protected by the withdrawal agreement because the situation has changed during their relationship.

I don't see how the new scenario benefits UK citizens in future relationships with people from any country, EU or not. Suppose I get on well with my hypothetical new Dutch girlfriend. However, the practicalities make her get cold feet and she decides to date someone in Bulgaria instead, much further away than Crawley, but in the EU so easier regarding immigration. My broken heart does not help my friend who is dating someone from India.

 

[Journeyman]

That makes it more likely that you will form and maintain a relationship with someone living in Netherlands than from further away. It doesn't explain why your Dutch partner should be treated differently than if you had met someone with non EU citizenship. What if your partner was a non EU citizen living in Netherlands (which rarely allows dual citizenship). They have no FOM rights. Existing relationships of EU citizens are protected by the withdrawal agreement because the situation has changed during their relationship.

Your argument that we should all have our rights made worse because some people don't have it as good is nonsense.

 

[Chester1]

Your argument that we should all have our rights made worse because some people don't have it as good is nonsense.

Its not nonsense. Spouse visas should not discriminate! I think it should be easy for Brits to bring any partner to the UK. It appears that you and @jamesheet49 are arguing that some sort of exemption should be built into spouse visa law for partners of British citizens who happen to be European.

 

[SS4]

I'm not buying any talk of a deal until it's actually happened.

Bit annoyed at them saying it took 9 months of talk - from my perspective it was eight months of stalling and a rush job. Anyone serious about a deal would have asked for an extension to the transition period in light of a global pandemic and all. Then again they've stalled so he can rush through anything because surely it's better than nothing

 

[Journeyman]

Its not nonsense. Spouse visas should not discriminate! I think it should be easy for Brits to bring any partner to the UK. It appears that you and @jamesheet49 are arguing that some sort of exemption should be built into spouse visa law for partners of British citizens who happen to be European.

Damn straight they shouldn't discriminate, but we should do that by making the rights for non-EU citizens better, not by making the rights of EU citizens worse.

 

[Chester1]

Damn straight they shouldn't discriminate, but we should do that by making the rights for non-EU citizens better, not by making the rights of EU citizens worse.

What are you actually advocating for?

I think spouse visas should be free, require checks that the relationship is genuine, that the spouse doesn't have a serious criminal record and that when they arrive here they speak at least a very basic level of English, that gets to a decent level by the time they apply for permanent residency. I would set those requirements for any partner regardless of nationality. That wouldn't make it substantially more difficult for an EU partner compared with today, just added paper work and English tests. I don't think thats unreasonable for a Government to implement. If I met an Italian and wanted to move to Italy I would expect them to check it wasn't a sham relationship to get a visa, that I wasn't a criminal and require me to get A1 Italian certificate.

 

[Journeyman]

I just don't think that anyone should ever have their rights made worse. I'm funny like that.

 

[Chester1]

I just don't think that anyone should ever have their rights made worse. I'm funny like that.

When those "rights" are tied entirely to a countries membership of an organisation there is always a risk of losing them. Benefits of being a citizen of a country that is a member of an organisation are not comparable with universal human rights.

 

[Journeyman]

When those "rights" are tied entirely to a countries membership of an organisation there is always a risk of losing them. Benefits of being a citizen of a country that is a member of an organisation are not comparable with universal human rights.

Brexiteers constantly told us we could retain all the benefits of membership. They lied.

 

[najaB]

Brexiteers constantly told us we could retain all the benefits of membership. They lied.

I think it's pretty well established now that the Brexit we were promised doesn't match the Brexit we've been delivered.

There's more benefit to be had by looking forwards than backwards.

 

[Journeyman]

I think it's pretty well established now that the Brexit we were promised doesn't match the Brexit we've been delivered.

Well, yeah. It was completely obvious to me that this would happen, which is one of just many reasons I voted Remain.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I applied for Irish citizenship in 2017, as my grandfather was born in Dublin, but my wife and kids aren't entitled to it. You can only pass it on to a spouse or kids you have after your citizenship is granted.

 

[Vespa]

I hope Labour may abstain. By voting for it they would take joint ownership and very much weaken their position to offer sharp criticism of the details in the future. It would be good to see one party in a strong position to go on pointing out what will have been lost.

There is nothing to gain from abstaining, if Labour did, they can kiss goodbye to the opportunity to regain the Red Wall constituencies at the next general election.

Brexit is a cross party subject, there are Labour Leave MPs as much as there is Remain Conservative MPs, many post on here keeps referring to Tories as an exclusively Leave party and Labour is a Remain party, which is not the case at all.

By the way, "Remain" is a defunct position as we have already left the EU, we're on transition which is expected to end on Dec 31st.

 

[Bantamzen]

Nothing will satisfy them. I wouldn't be surprised if Farage is Tweeting about a sell out.

Oh he's on it:

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1341823543143768064

It sounds like the British team have dropped the ball before the line. No wonder they want a Christmas Eve announcement to hide the fisheries sell-out.

 

[birchesgreen]

Getting your spouse (or to be-spouse) here from a non-EU country isn't easy (i know from personal experience ) but i wonder if the greater number (i presume) UK-EU relationships than UK-elsewhere will mean the hoops you have to jump through (and expense) will become a much bigger and better known issue and there will be pressure on the Home Office to change things.

 

[VauxhallandI]

There is nothing to gain from abstaining, if Labour did, they can kiss goodbye to the opportunity to regain the Red Wall constituencies at the next general election.

Brexit is a cross party subject, there are Labour Leave MPs as much as there is Remain Conservative MPs, many post on here keeps referring to Tories as an exclusively Leave party and Labour is a Remain party, which is not the case at all.

By the way, "Remain" is a defunct position as we have already left the EU, we're on transition which is expected to end on Dec 31st.

When this red wall live through the fall out of Brexit they could well be looking to turn back to Labour or something. So a Labour that didn’t vote in a Brexit **** show might be a good idea.

Brexit will deliver votes away from Brexit MPs far better than anything else