Brexit matters

[edwin_m]

Apparently Farage is angry that France has taken control or even taken back control of its borders

I was thinking that was a silver lining in a sky that looks pretty cloudy at present.

Then I thought that when Farage is angry he usually does something that makes a lot of us ashamed to be British and sends our standing down another notch or two with other countries.

 

[najaB]

Then I thought that when Farage is angry he usually does something that makes a lot of us ashamed to be British and sends our standing down another notch or two with other countries.

It's okay. We don't have much further to fall - there's some serious lithobraking in our near future.

 

[Chester1]

There does appear to have been a lot of haggling over fish in last 24 hours which the optimist in me thinks is a good sign about the state of the other bits of the negoiations. I do wonder if the EU is happy to delay so that the agreement needs to be provisionally ratified and applied by EU Council of Ministers. That would mean that EU parliament and member state parliaments would be bounced into situation in the new year were they would be choosing to accept or reject a Free Trade and Security Agreement that was already in force. The later a deal gets done the less scrutiny it will face in the UK parliament.

 

[21C101]

There does appear to have been a lot of haggling over fish in last 24 hours which the optimist in me thinks is a good sign about the state of the other bits of the negoiations. I do wonder if the EU is happy to delay so that the agreement needs to be provisionally ratified and applied by EU Council of Ministers. That would mean that EU parliament and member state parliaments would be bounced into situation in the new year were they would be choosing to accept or reject a Free Trade and Security Agreement that was already in force. The later a deal gets done the less scrutiny it will face in the UK parliament.

Anyone who has ever been to one of the major BR/Trade Union negotiations will not be surprised at the course of these negotiations nor at Macrons freight (allegedly due to covid, cough) stunt.

The surprise was the utter ineptness and weakness with which May and her team handled the earlier negotiations.

 

[class ep-09]

Anyone who has ever been to one of the major BR/Trade Union negotiations will not be surprised at the course of these negotiations nor at Macrons freight (allegedly due to covid, cough) stunt.

The surprise was the utter ineptness and weakness with which May and her team handled the earlier negotiations.

She negotiated withdrawal agreement that was rejected and then brought back by BoJo as PM as a big win .

Macron’s “stunt” are new normal with or without a deal, that is a consequence of not being in Custom Union .

 

[21C101]

She negotiated withdrawal agreement that was rejected and then brought back by BoJo as PM as a big win .

Macron’s “stunt” are new normal with or without a deal, that is a consequence of not being in Custom Union .

Or being in a customs union with a country that is incapable of stopping protesting fiahermen or striking lorry drivers illegally blockading it's own ports, as they fairly regularly do, which is why all the operation stack infrastructure is there in the first place.

In any case, such blockades are permitted even within a customs union for health reasons, but are not otherwise permitted outside a customs union if both parties are WTO members.

 

[class ep-09]

Or being in a customs union with a country that is incapable of stopping protesting fiahermen or striking lorry drivers illegally blockading it's own ports, as they fairly regularly do, which is why all the operation stack infrastructure is there in the first place.

In any case, such blockades are permitted even within a customs union for health reasons, but are not otherwise permitted outside a customs union if both parties are WTO members.

Not sure, where your “facts” come from but they seem to be a fantasy in par with other wet brexit dreams.

Operation stack is designed to take place due bad weather in The Channel , when ferries can’t cross ( or do so in limited capacity / speed etc) .
Channel Tunnel can’t carry all of them as there is not enough capacity.

Also, how WTO rules can prevent French fishermen , lorry drivers , farmers etc protesting / blocking the ports ( legally or illegally) is beyond me .

 

[21C101]

Not sure, where your “facts” come from but they seem to be a fantasy in par with other wet brexit dreams.

That's nice.

Given that this disproportionate, spiteful (and likely illegal under international and eurpoean law) action to block Freight by Macron (and Macron's France alone) has happened at a time when the UK is still in the single market and customs union, it is further reason, if such reason is needed, that we were right to leave.

It is further c

 

[37424]

That's nice.

Given that this disproportionate, spiteful (and likely illegal under international and eurpoean law) action to block Freight by Macron (and Macron's France alone) has happened at a time when the UK is still in the single market and customs union, it is further reason, if such reason is needed, that we were right to leave.

It is further c

I think it shows if countries want to close their borders at times of crisis they will do whether they are in the EU or not, and I don't see its much relevance as to whether we are in the EU or not.

 

[class ep-09]

That's nice.

Given that this disproportionate, spiteful (and likely illegal under international and eurpoean law) action to block Freight by Macron (and Macron's France alone) has happened at a time when the UK is still in the single market and customs union, it is further reason, if such reason is needed, that we were right to leave.

It is further c

France just “took back control of its borders” and is called : Temporary Reintroduction of Border Controls ( all explained ob EU Commission Site ).

Other countries could do this same , actually many has done so, forbidding any forms of transport from UK , including Singapore.

Perhaps we should vote to leave the Earth now, as lots of non EU countries are spiteful and disproportionate in their actions?

 

[37424]

France just “took back control of its borders” and is called : Temporary Reintroduction of Border Controls ( all explained ob EU Commission Site ).

Other countries could do this same , actually many has done so, forbidding any forms of transport from UK , including Singapore.

Perhaps we should vote to leave the Earth now, as lots of non EU countries are spiteful and disproportionate in their actions?

If you believe some comments you see on social media from some Brexiteers I think they want to live in an isolated Island with no trade and nobody ever leaves the UK becomes 'Royston Vasey'

 

[VauxhallandI]

That's nice.

Given that this disproportionate, spiteful (and likely illegal under international and eurpoean law) action to block Freight by Macron (and Macron's France alone) has happened at a time when the UK is still in the single market and customs union, it is further reason, if such reason is needed, that we were right to leave.

It is further c

I'm concerned for people of this thinking; I don't think they will ever be happy. I think counselling might be an option as there is no end to it and it must be very painful for those afflicted.

 

[class ep-09]

If you believe some comments you see on social media from some Brexiteers I think they want to live in an isolated Island with no trade and nobody ever leaves the UK becomes 'Royston Vasey'

You are right 100%

What is unbelievable though, is that we are insisting on having worse conditions than before in the current negotiations .

That is first time in the world’s history any country is negotiating trade / security / services deal, that is worse than the existing one.

We had better deal than Germany:

1. No Schengen - full border controls
2. Rebate in terms of payments - Thatcher’s legacy
3. No Euro - Brown’s legacy
4. Euro clearance in The City despite mot being in Eurozone ( ditto above).

These are just few but most important

 

[21C101]

I'm concerned for people of this thinking; I don't think they will ever be happy. I think counselling might be an option as there is no end to it and it must be very painful for those afflicted.

Thats utterly hilarious.

Not so funny though for the several thousand French and other European lorry drivers who will spend Christmas at Manston Airport thanks to Macron (while seeing their colleagues who are booked on ferries to Belguim, Holland etc go home as normal to their families).

 

[alex397]

Thats utterly hilarious.

Not so funny though for the several thousand French and other European lorry drivers who will spend Christmas at Manston Airport thanks to Macron (while seeing their colleagues who are booked on ferries to Belguim, Holland etc go home as normal to their families).

Blaming all of this on Macron is a bit over the top. Sure, perhaps the French gov could be handling this differently, but to blame this all on the French is a very simplified and misleading point. Yet again, our own government is handling this badly, and I think Hancock has a lot to answer for by saying this Corona strain was ‘out of control’.
Surely these new lorry parks such as Manston should have lots of facilities ready, seeing as it should be ready for 1st January. No, instead local authorities are having to provide, as well as charities! It really should not be up to charities to help with this.

I’m just wondering what the reaction would be if a new extra contagious strain of Covid was found in the Pas-de-Calais region of France, with the equivalent French health secretary claiming it was ‘out of control’. Would we be happy to just keep the border open? No I certainly don’t think so, especially those who are obsessed with controlling our borders.

 

[najaB]

No I certainly don’t think so, especially those who are obsessed with controlling our borders.

Of course they wouldn't be. They'd be calling for tanks to be deployed to the cliffs of Dover and submarines to patrol the Channel lest old Frenchie get any ideas above his station.

 

[7 Ingleborough]

Blaming all of this on Macron is a bit over the top. Sure, perhaps the French gov could be handling this differently, but to blame this all on the French is a very simplified and misleading point. Yet again, our own government is handling this badly, and I think Hancock has a lot to answer for by saying this Corona strain was ‘out of control’.
Surely these new lorry parks such as Manston should have lots of facilities ready, seeing as it should be ready for 1st January. No, instead local authorities are having to provide, as well as charities! It really should not be up to charities to help with this.

I’m just wondering what the reaction would be if a new extra contagious strain of Covid was found in the Pas-de-Calais region of France, with the equivalent French health secretary claiming it was ‘out of control’. Would we be happy to just keep the border open? No I certainly don’t think so, especially those who are obsessed with controlling our borders.

Exactly! all those rabid ERG and UKIP types would be screaming for the border to be shut. The only positive I have seen in the last few days, is the various Mosques and Sikh Temples turning out to feed as many of those stranded lorry drivers as they can. The huge lorry parks having no facilities to speak of, indeed 'Farages Folly' as it has come to be known, was built on flood plain and is largely underwater at present, so cannot be used. What a bloody shower we have in charge.

 

[edwin_m]

Thats utterly hilarious.

Not so funny though for the several thousand French and other European lorry drivers who will spend Christmas at Manston Airport thanks to Macron (while seeing their colleagues who are booked on ferries to Belguim, Holland etc go home as normal to their families).

Apparently the Netherlands is insisting on anyone going there having the full PCR test which requires a 24-hour wait for the results. So they are actually being more "unreasonable" than the French, who will accept the quicker but less accurate lateral flow test.

 

[nlogax]

Given that this disproportionate, spiteful (and likely illegal under international and eurpoean law) action to block Freight by Macron (and Macron's France alone) has happened at a time when the UK is still in the single market and customs union, it is further reason, if such reason is needed, that we were right to leave.

Opinions like yours still continue to floor me. No grounding in reality whatsoever, no basis in fact, just pure hogwash and tin foil.

That nonsense aside, rumours abound of a deal announcement this evening, or at least the first part of a wider deal. Allegedly a podium could be out front of No.10 tonight.

 

[westv]

From what I've heard/read a deal has been done. Let's see if that's right.

 

[najaB]

Keep in mind, a deal doesn't mean we're not ****ed, just that we're slightly less ****ed than we would be without one.

 

[nlogax]

Keep in mind, a deal doesn't mean we're not ****ed, just that we're slightly less ****ed than we would be without one.

Exactly. Things are obviously bad when the consolation prize looks like some sort of major success. This shouldn't have happened to begin with.

 

[Journeyman]

Exactly. Things are obviously bad when the consolation prize looks like some sort of major success. This shouldn't have happened to begin with.

Yeah, all it means is we've lost fractionally less than we otherwise would have done.

What an extraordinary waste it's all been.

 

[37424]

Yeah, all it means is we've lost fractionally less than we otherwise would have done.

What an extraordinary waste it's all been.

Indeed I am waiting to see if it really happens and of course it could be vetoed while trying to get EU approval, it doesn't cover services of course which is a big thing for us and an area Brexiteers completely ignore especially when they try and claim they need us more than we need them.

Plus of course the ERG gang will likely vote against it, I hope Labour will vote for it although I expect at worst they will just abstain.

 

[Senex]

Indeed I am waiting to see if it really happens and of course it could be vetoed while trying to get EU approval, it doesn't cover services of course which is a big thing for us and an area Brexiteers completely ignore especially when they try and claim they need us more than we need them.

Plus of course the ERG gang will likely vote against it, I hope Labour will vote for it although I expect at worst they will just abstain.

I hope Labour may abstain. By voting for it they would take joint ownership and very much weaken their position to offer sharp criticism of the details in the future. It would be good to see one party in a strong position to go on pointing out what will have been lost.

 

[brad465]

Indeed I am waiting to see if it really happens and of course it could be vetoed while trying to get EU approval, it doesn't cover services of course which is a big thing for us and an area Brexiteers completely ignore especially when they try and claim they need us more than we need them.

Plus of course the ERG gang will likely vote against it, I hope Labour will vote for it although I expect at worst they will just abstain.

I hope Labour may abstain. By voting for it they would take joint ownership and very much weaken their position to offer sharp criticism of the details in the future. It would be good to see one party in a strong position to go on pointing out what will have been lost.

As a general Labour supporter I'm very unsure about which of abstain or support is best: abstain absolves any joint ownership but looks weak (especially as they've done this a few times recently), but supporting ensures aversion of no deal, satisfies non-supporters, but annoys their base. However I do think support has the advantage that they can try and say "we supported the deal because it's better than no deal, but we think we can and should try and improve on the deal going forward", remembering Brexit itself is the thing that is making life poorer/harder, not specifically any deal we've negotiated.

 

[radamfi]

I haven't heard much discussion about future EU/UK relationships and how they are supposed to work in future, especially if you don't get married. Bizarrely, the widely acclaimed Renault advert is the closest I've seen to any acknowledgement of this issue.

 

[najaB]

However I do think support has the advantage that they can try and say "we supported the deal because it's better than no deal, but we think we can and should try and improve on the deal going forward", remembering Brexit itself is the thing that is making life poorer/harder, not specifically any deal we've negotiated.

I think the ideal idea would be to lend enough support to get it passed but not go all in.

 

[brad465]

I think the ideal idea would be to lend enough support to get it passed but not go all in.

Agreed, maybe a free vote but no voting against (if that's even a position that whips can state).

 

[alex397]

Hopefully a positive of the lorries packed into every available space in East Kent, is that it might make people realise just how important cross-channel trade is (Kent voted 59% Leave by the way). Perhaps I’m being a bit too hopeful.