It's almost as if every government organisation outside of Downing Street was pretty much happy with continuing collaborating with our closest neighbours the way we had been for the last 40 years or so.
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Brexit matters
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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I would have thought nothing would amaze me anymore about this topic, but no, it really is a can of worms (and huge can). My trust in the media and government really has plummeted in recent years.
I may be wrong, but from what I’ve seen in recent weeks, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition to this mess. Labour have been talking about this, but don’t seem to be saying that much. I also think Coronavirus is certainly more important to people at the moment, understandably. I think in more normal times, there would be more protests about this.
I may be wrong, but from what I’ve seen in recent weeks, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition to this mess. Labour have been talking about this, but don’t seem to be saying that much. I also think Coronavirus is certainly more important to people at the moment, understandably. I think in more normal times, there would be more protests about this.
If Locals are not not bothered about it closing thats just crazy, but not only that there were plans announced last week to build a large car battery manufacturing plant at Blyth, but if there is no UK Car industry left there isnt much point. It would seem to me that there are 4 plants in danger the 2 Vauxhall Plants, Nissan and Toyota as they are mainly here to serve the UK and EU markets and I dont see how a 10% tariff to the EU is going to work for them plus as you mentioned potential problems for JIT. That leave's BMW and JLR who are more global in there exports from UK plants but frankly it doesn't mean BMW will stay either of that JLR wont shift more production to their Slovakia plant, and thats potentially a lot of jobs going down the pan just in one sector.
I do find this narrative of a pure hard brexit at all costs just crazy, we don't care if we break international law, we dont care how many jobs we loose, we dont care if we impinge on the good friday agreement, and we dont if we break up of the union, as long as we get a pure hard brexit.
This does all sound like a cult really. Scary.
Hopefully people who think like this are a minority, and these extreme opinions are what the media pick up on more. I really hope that’s the case.
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nlogax
Established Member
It is a cult. I'm more and more convinced of this as time goes on. Leaving the EU is one thing, and while I've never supported it I accept the need to fulfil the result of the referendum. Being determined on leaving the EU without a deal is an exercise in cutting the nose off to spite the face, but on a national level.
The deal that the UK have in front of them gives them almost everything they said they wanted. Ending FoM, ending payments to EU, no more ECJ oversight. No more wasted MEP's in Brussels.
But they have now picked up on other issues. It's all about fish, and sovereignty. They want everything their way. If you have ever dealt with people like that you know that there really is only one solution, to walk away. Nothing you agree will ever be enough.
As soon as a deal is done, just like the WA, the UK will be back complaining that the deal isn't fair.
But they have now picked up on other issues. It's all about fish, and sovereignty. They want everything their way. If you have ever dealt with people like that you know that there really is only one solution, to walk away. Nothing you agree will ever be enough.
As soon as a deal is done, just like the WA, the UK will be back complaining that the deal isn't fair.
I think that Labour are playing this the right way - they realise that there's no way that they can stop hard-Brexit from happening, so they want to let it be Boris' mess.
Ironically they're probably best served politically by no-deal Brexit as they then never have to confront the question of whether they back a deal, abstain or oppose it in Parliament. Plus they get plenty of ammunition to lob at Boris and the Tories.
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No, they're not. They're the opposition and need to start playing that part not sitting back and mud slinging. To be honest they're as bad as their attitude seems to be to do nothing.
What could they actually do now to any useful effect? Specifically.
As I see it, Labour lost any influence when Jeremy Corbyn didn't either call a motion of no confidence in Theresa May, or agree to a government of national unity before Article 50 was invoked. Since then they've been passengers, just like the rest of us.
The Spanish foreign minister has pointed out that trade agreements are made to manage our interdependence, not establish our independence. She has summed up exactly why trade talks between Britain and the EU are failing. The UK has always been independent, just like Spain, France, Germany etc. But the tabloids are full of independence and sovereignty, as if we ever lost it.
I almost wonder if people have forgotten a bit what it's like when the Government have a huge majority? We've had either a formal coalition (2010 - 2015), a small working majority (2015 - 2017) or a minority government (2017 - 2019) for nearly a decade so getting used to a Government where it would require full scale civil war in the Tory party for the opposition to manage anything legislatively might take a bit of getting used to again? It isn't possible for rag tag coalitions of opposition parties to force the Government to do things it doesn't want to do in the way that happened during last year. Pretty much all they have in their locker is to try and make the counter arguments at the dispatch box and sling a bit of mud in public!
Exactly so.
Is a German any less German because Germany is in the EU?
Is an Italian any less Italian because Italy is in the EU?
rinse and repeat.....
You totally overestimate what an opposition can do when it has the lowest number of MP's it's had since 1935 and the Government have a majority of 80.
I think Labour are just paralysed between their leave and remain supporters and don't really know what to do other than let it play out.
For me Labour are as much to blame for this as anybody for this shambles, if Labour, or rather the Unions had selected the right Miliband I believe we wouldn't have had the referendum because Cameron wouln't have been in Government, they could have supported May's deal but were too caught up in there own self interest, and if we hadn't had both Corbyn as Leader and the rather stupid Brexit policy at the last election then who knows? Boris might have still won but not with an 80 seat majority thats for sure.
This was decided by Labour members at Conference and came on the back of a humiliating European Election in summer 2019. They had to have that policy or risk losing more voters to Lib Dems/Greens. Most Brexit supporting Labour voters had already left the building so to speak.
A read through of this thread explains why the Govermment has that majority. People who are totally convinced brexit will be a disaster arguing on mass until people who disagree shut up and keep their opinions to themselves. Of course that doesn't change opinions, just forms an echo chamber. People who keep their opinions to themselves still vote...
Labour is best served by a deal being agreed and then voting for it. They will argue its too thin but that what is in it is OK. They can promise to negoiate some extra stuff if they are elected. E.g. Erasmus, EHIC, the sort of stuff that will appeal to remainers but not anger most brexiteers.
It would help if people debated what was being said, not what they would like to think was being said.
When I illustrated my posts about the long term build up of a social divide between the technocratic upper middle classes and the working classes (and elements of the "old aristocracy"), the point of mentioning grammar schools and national service wasn't to say "we should bring them back"...
...but to illustrate a long term social effect of their removal. (one of many effects both positive and negative that have been debated to death elsewhere).
Fine if you disagree about my substantive point, but whether or not grammar schools and national service should be brought back is beyond the point (and impracticable in at least one of them in any case). All social change has positive and (usually unintended), negative consquences, the negative ones, being normally unforseen are often difficult to deal with and sometimes take decades to emerge.
The most significant issue in Brexit isn't the EU.
It is Class. Not the old divide between the Aristocracy and Landed classes and the rest, but a new divide between a merchant and managerial technocratic upper middle class, that is much bigger than the old aristocracy and landed gentry were, and the rest.
Brexit (and arguably the government joining the then EEC in the first place) is a symptom of this new and still growing class divide, that finally became of an extent that it seriously changed the political map in the 2019 electio.
When I illustrated my posts about the long term build up of a social divide between the technocratic upper middle classes and the working classes (and elements of the "old aristocracy"), the point of mentioning grammar schools and national service wasn't to say "we should bring them back"...
...but to illustrate a long term social effect of their removal. (one of many effects both positive and negative that have been debated to death elsewhere).
Fine if you disagree about my substantive point, but whether or not grammar schools and national service should be brought back is beyond the point (and impracticable in at least one of them in any case). All social change has positive and (usually unintended), negative consquences, the negative ones, being normally unforseen are often difficult to deal with and sometimes take decades to emerge.
The most significant issue in Brexit isn't the EU.
It is Class. Not the old divide between the Aristocracy and Landed classes and the rest, but a new divide between a merchant and managerial technocratic upper middle class, that is much bigger than the old aristocracy and landed gentry were, and the rest.
Brexit (and arguably the government joining the then EEC in the first place) is a symptom of this new and still growing class divide, that finally became of an extent that it seriously changed the political map in the 2019 electio.
While there is some truth in what you say, wasn't the narrative that we could leave at it would be no problem, that we could have our cake and eat it pushed by the likes of Farage and others the major factor, and many still believe that narrative despite plenty of evidence to the contary.
The thing is, Brexit doesn't have to be a disaster. The UK government is doing everything in its power to make it one.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The land is probably worth very little anyway, in the likely absence of anyone wanting to build on it. So Nissan might be quite happy to hand it back to the government.
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But it's very hard to see how it could be a beneficial to the UK as a whole, compared to staying in the EU.
Oh, I was (and still am) of the opinion that the UK will be worse off as a result of Brexit in economic, social and geopolitical terms for at least a generation. But the result of the referendum was Leave so we need to respect that.
But respecting the result doesn't mean that we should blindly accept whatever form of Brexit our completely inept government manages to achieve. There's no way any sane person can deny that the impact of the "Norway-style" Brexit we were promised would have been less than that of the hard, cliff-edge Brexit that we seem to be getting.
Respecting the result also doesn't mean that those who were opposed to leaving should remain silent and take our lumps - I certainly will do everything that I can to try and foster the closest relationship possible with the EU, with the hope that we'll manage not to completely burn the bridges that we may end up having to cross again in the future.
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Or those who think brexit will lead the UK to halcyon new world could put forward why it would be so. I'm always happy to debate, but from my experience once someone sees their view of the world challenged, they put the shutters up.
notlob.divad
Established Member
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BMW are already in the process of shifting more production to Germany and Austria. Seems their mid to long term plan is to backheal the dirty internal combustion technology on the UK plant and re-tool their German and Austrian operations on Electric technology.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I totally agree with the second part. But I'd go further and say the referendum has no legitimacy because of the vagueness of the "Leave" option, the lies told by those promoting that option, and the amount of time it has taken to implement during which public opinion has shifted. Had there been another referendum to confirm the terms of departure then I would have reluctantly accepted it as the will of the people, and it would also have avoided the current shenanigans where the terms still aren't set 11 months after leaving!
I'm not trying to change the fact that we have left. But I currently believe that their behaviour in 2016 marks the leading Leave campaigners, many of whom now run our government, as liars and conmen.
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That's another key issue. The automotive industry is just embarking on a major change of direction to focus on EVs. Already development of new IC vehicles will essentially have stopped. And even if the plants in the UK survive, they are unlikely to be front of queue for investment in production of new models when the risk is lower and the return higher by spending that money overseas.
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Indeed the move to EV's happening at the same time as Brexit potentially makers things even more difficult for the UK motor Industry, JLR are supposed to be making Castle Bromwich an EV plant, but everything is being reviewed by the new CEO and JLR don't appear to be in a good position financially.
In fact with a No Deal Brexit the only cars that may end up being made in the UK are the very Luxury Cars like Bentley/Rolls etc and a Government supported British Leyland style operation
21st century Allegro anyone!I gather a Tory MP (Sir Roger Gale) has said that No Deal Brexit would be a major failure by Boris Johnson and he should resign in that case, apperently he is a bit of a Remainer which surprised me as I thought Boris had got rid of them all except Teresa May.
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I was and still am waiting to be shown the benefits of Brexit. All I keep hearing about is "Global Britain", "Sovereignty", "we don't want to be told what to do by the EU" etc etc. I am yet to see how leaving is actually going to benefit Britain at all. We have tagged onto trade deals already done by the EU with other countries around the world. All we really seem to have done is enable some fishermen to be able to catch more fish but they won't have anywhere to sell them as the main market for fish from British waters is the EU. So even if BoJo stamps his feet and doesn't "surrender" to that nasty horrible EU and leaves with no deal, British fishermen will have tariffs slapped on their newly acquired catch that they want to sell to the EU. With language and rhetoric coming out in recent days, weeks and months, especially by the right-wing tabloids, you would never have believed that the EU has been our closed trading partner for decades and that EU countries are our closest allies. The language and rhetoric of these last few weeks are going to take years to heal. This isn’t just about "sovereignty", this is about the UK demonstrating it is a grown-up, trustworthy nation. Old BoJo threatening to break international law because he didn’t like the deal he had agreed to was just childish. The PM is all talk and very very little substance.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
I think at the end of the day, its not about benefits, its about feeling. Britain should never have joined the EU-we joined at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. We never bought into it, never felt like it was a key pillar to a peaceful, democratic society like the EU members themselves. We joined it because A-in 1975 the country was in a mess and something had to change and B, we continued our membership to enhance British global power-which isn't a very communitarian reason. Our close relationship with the EU is an illusion; every British government since 1945 has without fail chosen the US as our closest ally and neglected Europe for defence matters. Trade is important but means little when the arch-objective of the EU is federalism rather than trading.
Our relationship with Europe would heal quickly. Britain and Europe need eachother, no one would benefit from such a schism particuarly the East Europeans who live in the shadow of a laughing Russia. If we leave with no deal, the domestic political consequences have the potential to turn nasty on the continent. Imagine all those Italian farmers not being able to sell to Britain because of French fishing demands? It's not a long-game the EU needs to play.
Besides, as I said, there is no benefits to Scottish Independence. And no Eu membership doesn't count unless Scotland wants a GB tarriff border/huge deficit reduction/pain of setting up own currency and bank and risking reduction of precious exports to England-yet Scottish Independence is currently supported by 56% of the Scottish electorate. And yet, English remainers often blow kisses and throw roses and Scottish seperatists when they display exactly what they loathe in Brexiteers. There is something inate inside people that makes them vote for things that economically will do harm but psychologically makes their lives more meaningful.
I, and I guess others, struggle to see how the ending of those two things had increased the gap between the classes. National services was a long time ago, and I'm not aware of any studies that show it brought insight of one cl as s of anoth er. if argue that the Comprehensive schools lead to social classes mixing more than the old school system
Why on earth should feelings be the reason to make such a monumental change, rather than actual facts?? That is just ridiculous! Especially when those feelings have been stoked up by misinformation (some of the things that get some Brexiteers angry are things that don’t really have anything to do with the EU, or are not factual, like when it comes to immigration or fishing).
Interesting you mention Russia. I’d love to know how much they have influenced all this, but we’ll probably never know.
Im sure some of the EU countries will lose out with some things with no deal, but I’m sure those Italian farmers you mention have lots of other countries they are selling to!