Brexit matters

[21C101]

A read through of this thread explains why the Govermment has that majority. People who are totally convinced brexit will be a disaster arguing on mass until people who disagree shut up and keep their opinions to themselves. Of course that doesn't change opinions, just forms an echo chamber. People who keep their opinions to themselves still vote...

Sadly, you are right.

I would also suggest that people cowed into keeping their opinions to themselves take particular pleasure in voting, giving higher turnout.

Also, that many such people vote against those they see as representing those who shout them down; with little consideration of the candidate they vote for, other than whether said candidate stands the best chance of defeating those they want kept out.

Hence the fall of the red wall in the 2019 election.

 

[Dave1987]

Sadly, you are right.

I would also suggest that people cowed into keeping their opinions to themselves take particular pleasure in voting, giving higher turnout.

Also, that many such people vote against those they see as representing those who shout them down; with little consideration of the candidate they vote for, other than whether said candidate stands the best chance of defeating those they want kept out.

Hence the fall of the red wall in the 2019 election.

Back before the vote in 2016 in a pub I was shouted at by a Brexiteer that I was "Scaremongering" for saying there would be massive congestion at ports post-Brexit. The individual had believed the lie that Farage had said that we will still get full access to the Single market etc post-Brexit and be able to make up our own rules because the German's etc would be desperate to sell us their cars etc etc. Well it turns out it wasn’t scaremongering at all. The Government has just spent enormous amounts of money to mitigate against the congestion at ports caused by us leaving the single market and customs union. It turns out that Farage repeatedly lied and sold pipe dreams to many people. The main market for German cars isn’t the UK and they consider the Single market as far more important. And all the nonsense about Brits boycotting German cars post-Brexit has come to nothing. I've seen loads of brand new BMW's, Audi's and VW's around. BoJo looks like he is going to have to compromise on fishing rights after shouting about "gunboats guarding British waters" and all that rubbish. He is well aware how much of an economic hit the UK will take from No Deal which is why he is having to compromise. Funny that eh! I'm sure I heard Farage say the EU would be so desperate for a trade deal with us that they would capitulate to all our demands. Once again Farage is full of excrement! The EU is perfectly happy to trade with us post-Brexit but not on terms we dictate. And funnily enough trade deals with other countries will be based on compromise and not the UK shouting what it wants. Maybe Brexiteers should remember we want to trade with the EU and other countries, not threaten war or conflict.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Italian agricultural exports to Germany and France are around €13B as compared to €3.5B to the UK.

They'll survive.

Oh of course they will, but losing 3.5 bn euros won't go unoticed. Besides, my point was more that it all adds up; Italian agriculture, Spanish/Portuguese tourist industry, Irish/Belgium/Dutch economic hit-it will all add up across the EU and has the possiblity to create discontent.

Now I'm not saying I want this to happen to the EU, I'm saying, the EU would like to avoid this happening so there is a good argument for a deal for both sides.

Of course it is. That Great British Feeling of having conquered the World, stripping it of resources and putting down its native populations in the name of "empire". Dividing entire continents according to our own rules and totally disregarding the civic structures that existed before we decided they should be "civilised" according to our own views. The thing is, even back then when we had an empire it was entirely about benefits; the benefits to our own nation at the expense of other people around the world, many of whom still have to deal with the consequences of our desire to Rule the Waves.

Now we feel that it's our right to Waive the Rules and sod everyone else. I'm sorry to say this, but the days when our possessions were marked in pink on the globe are over. There's no going back. Britain is no longer as great as some of us would like to think. We're a small island at the western edge of the european continent and we need to accept that we are no longer the global power that we once were.

Okay, but that's not what I meant. Not a soul is talking about the Empire. The EU is more than a trade bloc as Thatcher found out the hard way, its about citizenship-a feeling of common 'European' belonging. Britain has never really held this feeling and I really its fair to categorise people like myself who have a very weak feeling of Europeanism as Imperialists when there are so many other short-term and long-term historical factors to unpick.

I really don't wish to derail the thread by mentioning Scottish independence, but

There are benefits. For a start, it gets us away from this constant nonsense about being "too wee, too poor and too stupid" to be able to govern our own affairs. Brexiters constantly bang on about Sovereignty while seeking to deny it to a part of the UK which has expressed its desire to have more autonomy. I heard it all during the 2014 Indyref campaign - how can they possibly exist without the rest of the UK? The answer is that we'll do just fine.



Isn't this what Brexit is all about? Yeah, we told those pesky foreigners that we didn't want freedom of movement, but despite the economic consequences we're happy to do stuff that hurts us economically in order to Take Back Control. If the Scots wish to make that sort of sacrifice, it's really no different to what you've been banging on about.

Scottish seperatists are the ones who keep banging on about being "too wee, too poor and stupid"-no one is calling Scots that. That's simply the seperatists' go to phrase to answer questions like "what currency are you going to use?" Because there is literally no answer to the economic challenges to Scottish independence. The same way that a Brexiteer would respond "Believe in Britain" when you ask "how are you going to solve the Irish border problem?"

Your right, is no difference-that's exactly what I'm saying! How can English remainers chastise Brexit so much and romanticise Scottish Independence when they are two sides to the same coin?

 

[7 Ingleborough]

Johnson has a choice. Get a deal or increase the risk of the break up of the UK sooner rather than later. Anyone claiming the Scots cannot do without us need to look closely at the true status of the country. Very energy efficient in terms of renewable production, on average a more highly educated population, a vibrant IT sector and plenty of areas where inward industrial investment would be welcome. Nothern Ireland, with family there and having worked there, even among the so-called Unionist population there is a strong feeling that the Dublin Govt. is trying to protect their interests more than the London one. Johnson must be scared a border poll gets called for because the result cannot be predicted.
As for the current debacle, all predictable. Populism meets Realism, and the kippers were always fantasists. The only ones with anything to gain from all this were always going to be based in Bejing and Moscow, and they're loving it.

 

[rcro]

Reasoned debate has turned into a determination to “win“ the argument and have the final say - with this and COVID - so all sides get more and more angry and selective with their evidence that in the end it’s ridiculous.

I don’t have to look back very far in my family tree to see roots in eastern Europe, and I’m grateful for the opportunity they had to settle in the UK (this was well before the EU expansion!). I’m not the EU’s biggest fan and accept it’s inefficient.

However, my personal opinion is that I have more faith in non-elected EU officials to do the right thing than an elected Tory Westminster government - and I suspect that opinion is shared throughout Wales and Scotland.

I’m *assuming* brexit is going to be proved to be a big mistake, and have thought that from the very beginning. But I don’t have a crystal ball so can live in the hope that I am proved wrong - and I’ll happy admit that if so. Nobody needs a crystal ball to see that continually belittling your opponents, and trying to demonstrate (to yourself?) why you are right about everything, is going to cause division.

I’ve got *my* opinion - I hope you respect that, and I’ll respect yours. Whatever we think - it makes no difference at all to the trajectory that this country is headed at the moment so let’s just try to get on with each other. If it’s going to be a disaster then being at each other’s throats will only make matters worse. If it’s going to be a fantastic success, don’t spoil it with petty squabbling.

 

[najaB]

Now I'm not saying I want this to happen to the EU, I'm saying, the EU would like to avoid this happening so there is a good argument for a deal for both sides.

Of course there's an argument for a deal on both sides. The EU didn't even want us to leave in the first place! But what too many Brexit-supporters believe is the whole "the EU needs us more than we need them" lie that they've been fed.

As a result, they just can't figure out why the EU isn't bending over backwards to give us everything we want.

 

[Senex]

The EU is more than a trade bloc as Thatcher found out the hard way, its about citizenship-a feeling of common 'European' belonging. Britain has never really held this feeling and I really its fair to categorise people like myself who have a very weak feeling of Europeanism as Imperialists when there are so many other short-term and long-term historical factors to unpick.

AND:

How can English remainers chastise Brexit so much and romanticise Scottish Independence when they are two sides to the same coin?

I don't think you can say "Britain has never really held this feeling". Certainly a very large number of people in Britain have, but I think there's also a very large number of us, growing especially amongst the young people who have had the chance to live and study in other European countries, who do have a genuine feeling of European-ness. In my case, I am very conscious of the European heritage of my culture, of music, art, literature, philosophy, even religion, etc rather than of any purely British feelings, and this consciousness was strengthened by an all-too-short period of working in Germany. My feelings are English and then European, with very little sense of "British" or "UK-ish" and a dislike of much of what the UK has come to stand for. I wonder how many others feel the same and do feel the consciousness of a history tied up with Europe rather than a prime commitment to Australia, Canada, etc, and even the Indian Empire.

As for the Scottish Independence point, how can the same Johnson Tories who argue so strongly for the UK's detachment from the EU and the right to be a sovereign state deny that same right to revert to being a sovereign state to Scotland if that is what the Scots wish to do? (It becomes even more interesting when, conscious of the way it's been let down / ignored by government from Westminster for the last century, Northumbria wants to claim back its independence.)

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Reasoned debate has turned into a determination to “win“ the argument and have the final say - with this and COVID - so all sides get more and more angry and selective with their evidence that in the end it’s ridiculous.

I don’t have to look back very far in my family tree to see roots in eastern Europe, and I’m grateful for the opportunity they had to settle in the UK (this was well before the EU expansion!). I’m not the EU’s biggest fan and accept it’s inefficient.

However, my personal opinion is that I have more faith in non-elected EU officials to do the right thing than an elected Tory Westminster government - and I suspect that opinion is shared throughout Wales and Scotland.

I’m *assuming* brexit is going to be proved to be a big mistake, and have thought that from the very beginning. But I don’t have a crystal ball so can live in the hope that I am proved wrong - and I’ll happy admit that if so. Nobody needs a crystal ball to see that continually belittling your opponents, and trying to demonstrate (to yourself?) why you are right about everything, is going to cause division.

I’ve got *my* opinion - I hope you respect that, and I’ll respect yours. Whatever we think - it makes no difference at all to the trajectory that this country is headed at the moment so let’s just try to get on with each other. If it’s going to be a disaster then being at each other’s throats will only make matters worse. If it’s going to be a fantastic success, don’t spoil it with petty squabbling.

This sadly is true. You almost forget this is a railway forum and we all have a common interest. The sad thing is nowadays is one's worldview seems to override the strongest emotional ties to people. It's weird-I blame social media.

 

[7 Ingleborough]

Oh of course they will, but losing 3.5 bn euros won't go unoticed. Besides, my point was more that it all adds up; Italian agriculture, Spanish/Portuguese tourist industry, Irish/Belgium/Dutch economic hit-it will all add up across the EU and has the possiblity to create discontent.

Now I'm not saying I want this to happen to the EU, I'm saying, the EU would like to avoid this happening so there is a good argument for a deal for both sides.



Okay, but that's not what I meant. Not a soul is talking about the Empire. The EU is more than a trade bloc as Thatcher found out the hard way, its about citizenship-a feeling of common 'European' belonging. Britain has never really held this feeling and I really its fair to categorise people like myself who have a very weak feeling of Europeanism as Imperialists when there are so many other short-term and long-term historical factors to unpick.



Scottish seperatists are the ones who keep banging on about being "too wee, too poor and stupid"-no one is calling Scots that. That's simply the seperatists' go to phrase to answer questions like "what currency are you going to use?" Because there is literally no answer to the economic challenges to Scottish independence. The same way that a Brexiteer would respond "Believe in Britain" when you ask "how are you going to solve the Irish border problem?"

Your right, is no difference-that's exactly what I'm saying! How can English remainers chastise Brexit so much and romanticise Scottish Independence when they are two sides to the same coin?

I don't want the break up of the UK, but knowing what is happening now, and after Scotland was told we would not be leaving the EU when they voted on independence, I can fully understand, and sympathise with the growing feeling that they want to go their own way, and I feel the same for Northern Ireland, a country I love and have a lot of connections in. Brexit was all about England, not the UK as a whole. Those wanting it in NI and Scotland were a tiny minority. In Wales when the vote was broken down, it was largely English populated areas that voted for it, and certainly not the more rural economies. Even now in North Wales plenty of EU flags on projects that had EU funding, the Welsh Highland Railway for example.
Family in NI and from what they tell me, all their friends and neighbours are openly wanting a border poll because they feel the UK Govt. has abandoned them. The Dublin Govt. cares more about them than the UK one does. These people are middle of the road types who in the past believed in unionism, but not at any price.
Scottish currency? The EU can show flexibility to new members, and despite what is said in the likes of the Telegraph or that comic, the Express, a ten year leeway on changing currency is easily achievable as is the setting up of Scottish financial institutions to support independence. It is a very technically advanced nation, and has a very highly developed education system and an excellent potential workforce.
Back in the 1980s, when Thatcher was doing all she could to get Japanese inward investment, Honda was keen to site it's UK plant in the Glasgow area, but was persuaded by means of grants and loans to site it in Swindon, for very political reasons. With us leaving the EU, and an independent Scotland applying to join the EU, I could see the likes of Nissan, Airbus and dozens of other employers choosing to move north of the border with the tacit approval of Brussels in the same way Thatcher persuaded Honda should move to relatively prosperous Wiltshire as opposed to relatively poor Glasgow.
Nobody is talking about Empire? Many of the supporters of the nationalist tendency do it every day. Have a dip into the online forums that look on Farage as the new messiah. The gunboat diplomats are there in force, and they actually believe in what they write about sinking EU based fishing boats. They talk about the former empire coming to the home country's rescue with trade deals galore. Better have a word with New Zealand then. They have lodged an objection with the World Trade Organisation about the UKs applied for export quotas in Sheep Products.
The drip drip drip of anti EU propaganda over the years had its effect. We lost the referendum, and frankly deserved to lose because we did not have the right tactics. The economically deprived had a bogeyman to blame, and sadly, they will be the ones who lose out most to what follows. Just look at the ones most vocal about leaving, they will certainly not suffer. The likes of Bamford of JCB, he isn't even leaving the EU, building JCB plants in Germany, or the INEOS Group, deciding to build it's new 4X4 in France. As for Lawson, he's a French resident!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I don't want the break up of the UK, but knowing what is happening now, and after Scotland was told we would not be leaving the EU when they voted on independence, I can fully understand, and sympathise with the growing feeling that they want to go their own way, and I feel the same for Northern Ireland, a country I love and have a lot of connections in. Brexit was all about England, not the UK as a whole. Those wanting it in NI and Scotland were a tiny minority. In Wales when the vote was broken down, it was largely English populated areas that voted for it, and certainly not the more rural economies. Even now in North Wales plenty of EU flags on projects that had EU funding, the Welsh Highland Railway for example.
Family in NI and from what they tell me, all their friends and neighbours are openly wanting a border poll because they feel the UK Govt. has abandoned them. The Dublin Govt. cares more about them than the UK one does. These people are middle of the road types who in the past believed in unionism, but not at any price.
Scottish currency? The EU can show flexibility to new members, and despite what is said in the likes of the Telegraph or that comic, the Express, a ten year leeway on changing currency is easily achievable as is the setting up of Scottish financial institutions to support independence. It is a very technically advanced nation, and has a very highly developed education system and an excellent potential workforce.
Back in the 1980s, when Thatcher was doing all she could to get Japanese inward investment, Honda was keen to site it's UK plant in the Glasgow area, but was persuaded by means of grants and loans to site it in Swindon, for very political reasons. With us leaving the EU, and an independent Scotland applying to join the EU, I could see the likes of Nissan, Airbus and dozens of other employers choosing to move north of the border with the tacit approval of Brussels in the same way Thatcher persuaded Honda should move to relatively prosperous Wiltshire as opposed to relatively poor Glasgow.
Nobody is talking about Empire? Many of the supporters of the nationalist tendency do it every day. Have a dip into the online forums that look on Farage as the new messiah. The gunboat diplomats are there in force, and they actually believe in what they write about sinking EU based fishing boats. They talk about the former empire coming to the home country's rescue with trade deals galore. Better have a word with New Zealand then. They have lodged an objection with the World Trade Organisation about the UKs applied for export quotas in Sheep Products.
The drip drip drip of anti EU propaganda over the years had its effect. We lost the referendum, and frankly deserved to lose because we did not have the right tactics. The economically deprived had a bogeyman to blame, and sadly, they will be the ones who lose out most to what follows. Just look at the ones most vocal about leaving, they will certainly not suffer. The likes of Bamford of JCB, he isn't even leaving the EU, building JCB plants in Germany, or the INEOS Group, deciding to build it's new 4X4 in France. As for Lawson, he's a French resident!

The NI situation is terrible. I would have been happy with Keir Starmer's custom union plan-its tantamount to betrayal to leave Ulster high and dry over how much their unionism cost them over the years.

 

[21C101]

This sadly is true. You almost forget this is a railway forum and we all have a common interest. The sad thing is nowadays is one's worldview seems to override the strongest emotional ties to people. It's weird-I blame social media.

Things like port blockades are a typical case in point.

One side is aghast at the prospect and cannot understand how the other side can willingly take a course that might lead to them happening.

The other side shrugs, sees it as no different from a French fishermans strike blockade and is aghast that the other side would cede the power to run its own affairs to unelected officials in Brussels, to avoid such a minor inconvenience.

There is basically no common ground on this issue. It is very similar to the pro and anti treaty question in Ireland post 1922 that resulted in a unpleasant civil war between the pro and anti factions with even families fighting each other,

Edit - perhaps even more similar to the English civil war over whether an unelected King or an elected Parliament runs the country. I don't think it is complete coincidence that places like Essex which was so strongly for Cromwell is so pro brexit, and big cities like London which tended to be Royalist are pro remain.

The European question lurked in that conflict too with deep suspicion of Charles Ist catholic leanings. Not for any spiritual reason but because the Pope was also Europes secular imperium with the power to strike down Acts of Parliament in Catholic states (including England until Henry V111s Act of Supremacy, effecively a declaration of UDI).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Edit - perhaps even more similar to the English civil war over whether an unelected King or an elected Parliament runs the country. I don't think it is complete coincidence that places like Essex which was so strongly for Cromwell is so pro brexit, and big cities like London which tended to be Royalist are pro remain.

The historian Lucy Worsley did an interesting series of programmes on the history of Britain (which unashamedly semed to only cover England) where she does say that the Civil War had strikingly similar impacts on society that Brexit did.

 

[alex397]

There is basically no common ground on this issue. It is very similar to the pro and anti treaty question in Ireland post 1922 that resulted in a unpleasant civil war between the pro and anti factions with even families fighting each other,

Edit - perhaps even more similar to the English civil war over whether an unelected King or an elected Parliament runs the country. I don't think it is complete coincidence that places like Essex which was so strongly for Cromwell is so pro brexit, and big cities like London which tended to be Royalist are pro remain.

If there is no common ground, it probably wasn’t a good idea to have a referendum, to increase these divisions (or maybe the referendum should have been much more than just a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question, like it was a referendum for banning fireworks or something) But, we did, and it’s difficult to go back on that.
And with little common ground, it is probably wise to make compromises, rather than just have a hard no-deal Brexit.

I highly doubt we will end up in a civil war, but you do have a point as divisions in society do end up causing such things. To say to anyone in 2015 that we would even be mentioning it in 2020, I think they’d be shocked.

I’m not quite sure Cromwell has had any influence on the Brexit vote. It’s not exactly in living memory!

 

[DarloRich]

Brexit stuff just got real: Hornby are suspending shipment of non uk orders from 15th December until 4th January 202021 due to Brexit uncertainty.

if that doesn't bring the EU begging for a deal nothing will. We all know how Macron lives his OO gauge!

 

[birchesgreen]

God we have gone back to the Civil War now, it'll be the Romans by tea time

 

[Mag_seven]

it'll be the Romans by tea time

Yes just think we were a European country long before the concept of the UK even existed!

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes just think we were a European country long before the concept of the UK even existed!

Personally i'm blaming Brexit on the first tetrapod which crawled out of a drying pool onto land.

 

[najaB]

Personally i'm blaming Brexit on the first tetrapod which crawled out of a drying pool onto land.

But did those feet, in ancient times, walk upon England's mountains green?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

God we have gone back to the Civil War now, it'll be the Romans by tea time

I don't quite think that's what we meant...

 

[dosxuk]

If there is no common ground, it probably wasn’t a good idea to have a referendum, to increase these divisions (or maybe the referendum should have been much more than just a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question, like it was a referendum for banning fireworks or something) But, we did, and it’s difficult to go back on that.
And with little common ground, it is probably wise to make compromises, rather than just have a hard no-deal Brexit.

The solution would have been to either make leaving the EU a cross-party activity and/or hold a second referendum (hold on at the back there) to decide HOW we leave. Don't include "actually we want to stay" as an option, but there could easily have been a vote on:
- leave, but stay in the customs union / single market
- leave, but keep out fish
- leave, and refuse to deal with the EU

Such a vote would have helped reunify the population as it would be both sides making a decision on how to proceed. Sure a load of people would have spoilt their ballots (remainers not wanting to accept the first result / leavers outraged at the fact their interpretation of leaving wasn't being enacted immediately), but it would have been the time for the country to come back together and examine the options.

Instead we got May with her hastily thought out red lines that didn't make much sense then and make less now, coupled with her trying to keep the Tory party together by not making any decision which would upset any of the internal factions.

until 4th January 202021

That's a long wait!

 

[birchesgreen]

That's a long wait!

They might have worked out a deal by then.

 

[ungreat]

Regardless of what anyone says now...and this won't go down well..most Brexiters voted leave to get rid of foreign people.

 

[najaB]

Regardless of what anyone says now...and this won't go down well..most Brexiters voted leave to get rid of foreign people.

At lot, yes. Most.... well, I'd need to see some figures to back statement that up.

 

[RT4038]

The solution would have been to either make leaving the EU a cross-party activity and/or hold a second referendum (hold on at the back there) to decide HOW we leave. Don't include "actually we want to stay" as an option, but there could easily have been a vote on:
- leave, but stay in the customs union / single market
- leave, but keep out fish
- leave, and refuse to deal with the EU

Such a vote would have helped reunify the population as it would be both sides making a decision on how to proceed. Sure a load of people would have spoilt their ballots (remainers not wanting to accept the first result / leavers outraged at the fact their interpretation of leaving wasn't being enacted immediately), but it would have been the time for the country to come back together and examine the options.

Instead we got May with her hastily thought out red lines that didn't make much sense then and make less now, coupled with her trying to keep the Tory party together by not making any decision which would upset any of the internal factions.



That's a long wait!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing; even a fairly short time afterwards vital things are being forgotten.
Leaving the EU could not be a cross-party activity - both main parties were equally divided on the issue. Parliament was impotent to deal with such a scenario.
The result of the referendum was a total shock to the political class. There was no plan to deal with a 'leave' vote. That the referendum had delivered such a decision made it hardly likely that another referendum would be contemplated.
Theresa May tried for a leave but stay in the customs union / single market, but could not get that past our elected representatives, as not being in the spirit of the referendum result.
The details of the negotiations were a long way off at this point - how would having a referendum on fish have helped at all?

 

[dosxuk]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing; even a fairly short time afterwards vital things are being forgotten.
Leaving the EU could not be a cross-party activity - both main parties were equally divided on the issue. Parliament was impotent to deal with such a scenario.

That's exactly why it should have been cross-party. Leave the parties out of it and force the politicians to come to a consensus that Parliament as a whole could get behind. We only ended up with such chaos at the end of last year because Government wanted to push through a plan which they couldn't even get their own party to agree to. If their plan was formed with the support of the other parties they would have had votes from them which would have cancelled out those on the extremes who thought it was too much or not enough.

The result of the referendum was a total shock to the political class. There was no plan to deal with a 'leave' vote. That the referendum had delivered such a decision made it hardly likely that another referendum would be contemplated.

So they didn't know what to do or why the public voted like that, yet they were in a perfect position to know exactly what the will of the people was? It was clear the country was (and still is) heavily divided along remain and leave lines, by forcing us to acknowledge the original vote and make a further decision to guide our Government those divisions could have been healed. Instead we had May telling us she was following what the public wanted, without asking what that was.

Theresa May tried for a leave but stay in the customs union / single market, but could not get that past our elected representatives, as not being in the spirit of the referendum result.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Her initial red lines ruled out customs union / single market before the option had even been discussed. By blocking freedom of movement and refusing to recognise the ECJ she immediately closed the door on any of those options. Immigration and ECJ rulings both caused May trouble during her time at the Home Office, so it's little surprise she wanted nothing to do with that, but it seems little though behind what options that leaves was done before announcing those red lines.

The details of the negotiations were a long way off at this point - how would having a referendum on fish have helped at all?

The only reason fish is even involved today is because Farage made such a stink about it at the time of the referendum and subsequent elections. It's certainly not because it's a key or critical industry for the country.

Face it, the only reason not to have a popular vote on the terms of our leaving is because too many key leave voices were after the most destructive option possible and they know that a popular vote would likely return a soft-brexit (like they were promoting before the referendum).

 

[Typhoon]

Regardless of what anyone says now...and this won't go down well..most Brexiters voted leave to get rid of foreign people.

At lot, yes. Most.... well, I'd need to see some figures to back statement that up.

I think there is something to be said that they voted to prevent the influx of more 'foreign' people aided by Vote Leave's claims that Turkey will be joining the EU (disclaimed but why spoil a good story) and their ad campaign with a massive queue of people with 'middle eastern' appearance (I do hope they were paid) seemingly waiting to flood into the country.

If that is why they did vote the way they did, they are going to be sadly disappointed. The Europeans I mostly see are either running (seemingly successful) restaurants and cafes, small convenience shops (recognisable by the use of 'European' in the title or subtitle of the shop) and the (usually polite) fruit pickers I see either when I'm walking in the countryside or at a nearby boot fair. If the latter are not allowed to return, I have fears for the agricultural sector in my part of the world. There will be others (some people must buy the goods in the shops as the description and, sometimes, picture have me baffled) but they are largely anonymous.

On reflection, I think if Cameron and his government (together with Labour) had campaigned to leave, we wouldn't have this thread as we would be staying in.

 

[alex397]

Regardless of what anyone says now...and this won't go down well..most Brexiters voted leave to get rid of foreign people.

It would be very difficult to prove that most voted for that reason. I’m sure it wasn’t a reason for everyone who voted for it.
But there are definitely people who did. Like my family - I asked them why they voted for it, and ‘immigrants’ was the only thing they could think of. They seem to confuse asylum seekers and immigrants too. Leaving the EU is certainly not going to help us stop asylum seekers, in fact may make it more difficult if there is less cooperation. Not that I’m against asylum seekers myself, seeing as they are fellow humans - I would be doing the same as them in their position.

With immigrants, rather than asylum seekers, we will have less fruit pickers coming here. But is is wrong to assume they are all coming here for laborious jobs, it will make things more difficult for students, academics and so on. In my family’s minds, they are taking up jobs for British people - even if we encouraged more ‘British’ people to work on farms (which could be a good thing), there would still be a shortfall. And I’ve heard farmers say they have tried employing British people but they mostly don’t work as hard as the immigrant workforce.

The anti-Eastern European rhetoric always puzzles me. It really saddens me that as a teenager I thought Eastern Europeans were unfriendly and dangerous - when in reality they are generally kind and polite (and come from countries which are usually safer than the UK).
They are much more similar to us than people think, but I never feel they have been particularly welcomed here. It’s a stereotype, but they are often very hard workers too. Surely we would want to persuade hard workers to come here?

 

[Tester]

On reflection, I think if Cameron and his government (together with Labour) had campaigned to leave, we wouldn't have this thread as we would be staying in.

I think this is a really important point in considering how we managed to end up in this mess.

Of course it is an opinion, but I am convinced that many people (certainly far more than enough to swing the vote) voted to leave for exactly the reason that the party of austerity campaigned to remain - in other words to 'give them a kicking'. The fact that this stood to hurt them more than those in power was unlikely to be at the forefront of their minds - witness many people asking, 'What is the EU?', in the immediate aftermath of the result.

We now have the same party (but most definitely not mentioning austerity) paying lip service to the needs of those less well off, but now at a time when there isn't going to be a surplus of resources to actually do anything constructive, even if the will was truly there.

Education, education, education.

 

[Typhoon]

The anti-Eastern European rhetoric always puzzles me. They are much more similar to us than people think, but I never feel they have been particularly welcomed here. It’s a stereotype, but they are often very hard workers too. Surely we would want to persuade hard workers to come here?

We don't understand them and we don't make any effort to understand them.

I once spoke to a young lady from Lithuania, who started to explain where Lithuania is - I interceded and gave a full description, adding a brief explanation of that part of its history that I know (middle ages - it was very large). She was absolutely amazed that I had a clue, apparently I was the first person in the UK she had spoken to who had any real idea. Now I don't know that much, I would struggle with much more than half a side of A4 but we expect those from other countries to know all about the UK.

If we had some idea of the recent history of the Balkans, Baltic States, Scandinavia, we might actually understand why their residents respond the way they do but we are too tied up with the wives of Henry VIII.

 

[21C101]

In terms of Labour/Tory in this, I think it was Peter Mandelson who recently said words to the effect of:

All the media focus was on the Tory civil war over Europe because their MPs were divided. Their supporters, not so divided.

Labours MPs (bar a very few) were not divided over Europe but Labours supporters were, largely unnoticed by the media, which gave the Tories an open goal in 2019.