Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

[furnessvale]

I certainly don't remember any such statements being made by anyone in authority and would appreciate a link/source to confirm that they were.

Fair enough.
I am pleased to note that I was the only person who misunderstood what status quo meant, and that the majority who bothered to vote fully understood that status quo actually means continued and increasing EU directives governing our lives, which is why they voted leave.

 

[nlogax]

Fair enough.
I am pleased to note that I was the only person who misunderstood what status quo meant, and that the majority who bothered to vote fully understood that status quo actually means continued and increasing EU directives governing our lives, which is why they voted leave.

Which EU directives adversely govern your life? What are the most onerous? From which directives do you wish to be unshackled? Those are honest questions and it's fair to assume your answers will be more meaningful than the standard media fluff about bananas and vacuum cleaners.

 

[fowler9]

Which EU directives adversely govern your life? What are the most onerous? From which directives do you wish to be unshackled? Those are honest questions and it's fair to assume your answers will be more meaningful than the standard media fluff about bananas and vacuum cleaners.

Don't hold your breath. On the plus side we will be doing more trade with the US who are putting trade tarrifs on Bombardier in Northern Ireland to protect Boeing and India who want more freedom of movement to the UK. Apart from that life is going to be peachy.

 

[DarloRich]

Fair enough.
I am pleased to note that I was the only person who misunderstood what status quo meant, and that the majority who bothered to vote fully understood that status quo actually means continued and increasing EU directives governing our lives, which is why they voted leave.

Could you express which directives impacted upon you the most?

 

[nlogax]

Could you express which directives impacted upon you the most?

While waiting for a definitive response, I'm considering learning to play the piano or learning to speak fluent Japanese.

 

[DarloRich]

While waiting for a definitive response, I'm considering learning to play the piano or learning to speak fluent Japanese.

I am yet to find anyone who is able to express a cogent argument for voting to leave. It is all based on emotion, delusion, confusion, misunderstanding and untruths. At the time of the vote I was open minded about EU membership and wanted detail and information upon which to make a decision. A decent, detailed argument, setting out clearly the benefits and risks of leaving could have won my vote. None was forthcoming, especially from the mendacious leave teams.

The more that has emerged since the vote the more I feel happy I voted remain.

 

[nlogax]

I am yet to find anyone who is able to express a cogent argument for voting to leave. [..].

Completely agree with every word you've just said. I have exactly the same feelings about it all.

 

[Moonshot]

I am yet to find anyone who is able to express a cogent argument for voting to leave. It is all based on emotion, delusion, confusion, misunderstanding and untruths. At the time of the vote I was open minded about EU membership and wanted detail and information upon which to make a decision. A decent, detailed argument, setting out clearly the benefits and risks of leaving could have won my vote. None was forthcoming, especially from the mendacious leave teams.

The more that has emerged since the vote the more I feel happy I voted remain.

One of the better posts I have seen .....however....no matter what we think about it, the fact is that the majority voted to leave, and the long term future for a prosperous UK looks very dim to me. What it has made me personally do as well is put away some decent wedges of cash for a rainy day fund.

 

[Cowley]

One of the better posts I have seen .....however....no matter what we think about it, the fact is that the majority voted to leave, and the long term future for a prosperous UK looks very dim to me. What it has made me personally do as well is put away some decent wedges of cash for a rainy day fund.

Where did you put them? I won’t tell anyone.

 

[bramling]

Which EU directives adversely govern your life? What are the most onerous? From which directives do you wish to be unshackled? Those are honest questions and it's fair to assume your answers will be more meaningful than the standard media fluff about bananas and vacuum cleaners.

For many look no further than freedom of movement.

 

[Hornet]

My mind was made up by what Jean Claude Trichet said on the 31 March 2011.

 

[Howardh]

For many look no further than freedom of movement.

Yes, indeed, we have thrown that away for ourselves and future generations.
Has any country in the past ever voted away a freedom?

 

[Hornet]

Yes, indeed, we have thrown that away for ourselves and future generations.
Has any country in the past ever voted away a freedom?

Spain.

 

[Sox]

Before Brexit, I attended two events in Manchester/Salford to hear structured debates from both sides. The first at MMU was fine enough (well organised and attended with plenty of free wine and canapés).

However, the event at MMU definitely had a pro-EU flavour (mainly lefty academics and students in the audience) and it wasn't long before Godwin's Law came into play, as a reason for remaining in the EU.

The second one, at Media City, was affected by very heavy rain and although the audience turnout was reduced, I found a better balance. For example, there were speakers from industry taking a pro-Brexit stance and giving examples how the so called “free market” was pretty much rigged.

Although I am a resolute Brexiter, both events provided an opportunity to have robust, yet friendly, discussions with remainers.

I duly voted for Brexit and, although in no way did I think we would win, I was surprised as anyone, in the early hours of the following morning, to hear that things were going the Brexit way.

Democracy had spoken and it appears that enough folk refused to be taken in by the endless BBC propaganda, testimony from various captains of industry, most of the media, a raft of left-wing luvvies, academics and financial experts, the political establishment (remember Osbourne’s lies?), Cameron’s letter warning everyone that the world would come to an end if we voted leave and being called thick, stupid or xenophobic.

Anyhow, since the vote, the big disappointment to me is the way that remainers have now become so bitter and twisted. Whereas once a friendly debate could be had, nowadays, any attempt at discussion soon degenerates into acrimony. Even reading this limited forum, you can tell that people are not right in the head about the result.

For some, unless they get some form of counselling, they will end up carrying their bitterness to the grave and that would be a waste of a life.

Despite the long prose above, I really wish the mods would ban this type of Brexit discussion forum, it has nothing to do with railways, is distorted with the weight of grieving remainers and all it succeeds in doing is winding people up.

 

[fowler9]

Before Brexit, I attended two events in Manchester/Salford to hear structured debates from both sides. The first at MMU was fine enough (well organised and attended with plenty of free wine and canapés).

However, the event at MMU definitely had a pro-EU flavour (mainly lefty academics and students in the audience) and it wasn't long before Godwin's Law came into play, as a reason for remaining in the EU.

The second one, at Media City, was affected by very heavy rain and although the audience turnout was reduced, I found a better balance. For example, there were speakers from industry taking a pro-Brexit stance and giving examples how the so called “free market” was pretty much rigged.

Although I am a resolute Brexiter, both events provided an opportunity to have robust, yet friendly, discussions with remainers.

I duly voted for Brexit and, although in no way did I think we would win, I was surprised as anyone, in the early hours of the following morning, to hear that things were going the Brexit way.

Democracy had spoken and it appears that enough folk refused to be taken in by the endless BBC propaganda, testimony from various captains of industry, most of the media, a raft of left-wing luvvies, academics and financial experts, the political establishment (remember Osbourne’s lies?), Cameron’s letter warning everyone that the world would come to an end if we voted leave and being called thick, stupid or xenophobic.

Anyhow, since the vote, the big disappointment to me is the way that remainers have now become so bitter and twisted. Whereas once a friendly debate could be had, nowadays, any attempt at discussion soon degenerates into acrimony. Even reading this limited forum, you can tell that people are not right in the head about the result.

For some, unless they get some form of counselling, they will end up carrying their bitterness to the grave and that would be a waste of a life.

Despite the long prose above, I really wish the mods would ban this type of Brexit discussion forum, it has nothing to do with railways, is distorted with the weight of grieving remainers and all it succeeds in doing is winding people up.

That is a nice story but if you had spent more time on here the last couple of days you would have seen Brexiters talking about Somalian families with 8 kids coming here for benefits. Quite what that has to do with Brexit I don't know, you seem a reasonable person so perhaps you could explain. As for Brexit having nothing to do with railways, neither does aviation, football, rugby or many of the other areas of the forum in a direct sense. I think as a railway forum it is interesting to be able to chat with people that you have a lot in common with in some ways and not in others. As long as we are reasonable about I don't see the problem. And in a perhaps abstract way the railways do have a lot to do with many aspects of society. You talk about democracy and then say people who don't agree with you as not being right in the head and perhaps needing counselling.

 

[Cowley]

Well said (and nothing against you Sox).
I enjoy reading each sides opinions on here and I’ve probably learnt quite a bit from listening to the opposing arguments over the last few months (and following up what’s been said).
But. It doesn’t hurt to listen to each other’s opinions on the subject - I’ll nail my own colours to the mast here... I didn’t actually vote. Mainly because I felt that I didn’t know what was for the best even with research .
If the referendum happened again, I think (and I only think) that I’d vote to stay in Europe, because it feels like such an absolute shambles to leave at the moment.
I’m by no means convinced of the ‘European Dream’ however...

 

[jon0844]

I doubt many remainers think the EU is perfect. Any more than our Government, local councils etc.

We had issues with the EU before. Cameron even attempted to negotiate to resolve some issues with limited success.

I just don't get why we thought leaving was the solution when we can't move away from the rest of Europe. Now we have no say or control with how our neighbours evolve, and for whom we can't stop trading with or traveling to.

I suspect most of the problems are down to our own Government. Can't we leave them?

 

[najaB]

I suspect most of the problems are down to our own Government.

They are all the fault of our government, it will be interesting to see who they're going to blame things on after 2019.

 

[fowler9]

They are all the fault of our government, it will be interesting to see who they're going to blame things on after 2019.

I suspect the same, we need psychiatric help though.

 

[Cowley]

Much agreed jon0844.
I personally would appreciate from everyone taking part in this thread - Some reasoned fact based debate...
It’s good to listen to both sides of the argument and then make your own mind up. Unless I’m the only one that still feels unsure at times? (I don’t believe I am though) and it’s probably fair to say that it’s been a little bit angry at times recently...

I know people personally that regret voting ‘Leave’, and I know others that don’t regret their decision at all.
It’s alright to disagree,but everyone needs to understand and value each other’s point of view if we’re going to understand why we got to this point and learn from it.

 

[fowler9]

Much agreed jon0844.
I personally would appreciate from everyone taking part in this thread - Some reasoned fact based debate...
It’s good to listen to both sides of the argument and then make your own mind. Unless I’m the only one that still feels unsure at times? (I don’t believe I am though) and it’s probably fair to say that it’s been a little bit angry at times recently...
I know people personally that regret voting ‘Leave’, and I know others that don’t regret their decision at all.
It’s alright to disagree,but everyone needs to understand and value each other’s point of view if we’re going to understand why we got to this point and learn from it.

Yeah mate, we all need to remain civil about it. You are 100% right. It can be difficult to do with such an emotive subject “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” Abraham Lincoln. A great quote and in one of my favourite films, American History X. Not comparing anyone to Neo Nazis by the way, just a great quote. The bolds are just from where I copy and pasted, apologies.

 

[Cowley]

It was a great quote Mr9.

I think that if there had been a choice on the referendum paper that said:

“Carry on as we are - with a fair degree of influence but without fully buying into the ‘European Dream’ unless a few important things were changed and we were happier that our slightly different circumstances had been taken into account. Also, it’s not that we don’t like you, but we’ve had a few issues with certain European countries before and that this sometimes effects the way we see things rightly or wrongly.”

I’d probably have gone for that one...

Actually wasn’t that pretty much what we already had?

Instead it’s been turned into this ridiculous black and white situation that it just isn’t in my opinion.

 

[fowler9]

It was a great quote Mr9.

I think that if there had been a choice on the referendum paper that said:

“Carry on as we are - with a fair degree of influence but without fully buying into the ‘European Dream’ unless a few important things were changed and we were happier that our slightly different circumstances had been taken into account. Also, it’s not that we don’t like you, but we’ve had a few issues with certain European countries before and that this sometimes effects the way we see things rightly or wrongly.”

I’d probably have gone for that one...

Actually wasn’t that pretty much what we already had?

Instead it’s been turned into this ridiculous black and white situation that it just isn’t in my opinion.

I couldn't argue with that. We are where we are though. I prefered it pre article 50 when we just had to try and argue our case with the EU, now we are arguing with the EU and each other. Still, that is where we are.

 

[bramling]

Yes, indeed, we have thrown that away for ourselves and future generations.
Has any country in the past ever voted away a freedom?

A freedom that most don’t use, versus the issues which a rapidly rising population brings in an already comparatively densely populated country that’s experiencing pressures on infrastructure, services and housing, with no politician seemingly able to offer solutions. That is how many people see it, and evidently many feel the loss of freedom of movement is a price worth paying.

Perhaps the remain contingent could consider whether the EU could have compromised more on the issue. Normally if a politician or political party lose an election they are held responsible and key figures resign, yet when the EU effectively lost a referendum no one seems to feel that EU is in any way responsible. Just an observation.

 

[bramling]

I doubt many remainers think the EU is perfect. Any more than our Government, local councils etc.

We had issues with the EU before. Cameron even attempted to negotiate to resolve some issues with limited success.

I just don't get why we thought leaving was the solution when we can't move away from the rest of Europe. Now we have no say or control with how our neighbours evolve, and for whom we can't stop trading with or traveling to.

I suspect most of the problems are down to our own Government. Can't we leave them?

Britain has always had a slightly strained relationship with the EU, and unlike some other European countries it’s fair to say Britain has always been a somewhat reluctant European.

I see it as a situation where we have been together for years like in a failing marriage where finally things have gone too far and divorce has become necessary.

Both sides have tried to make it work, arguably less so on the EU side, but time to say enough is enough and try a different approach. Britain can still have a relationship with other European countries, but it certainly doesn’t have to be in the form of the EU, which at the end of the day is simply someone’s political creation, and an idea the British people have decided to reject.

 

[fowler9]

A freedom that most don’t use, versus the issues which a rapidly rising population brings in an already comparatively densely populated country that’s experiencing pressures on infrastructure, services and housing, with no politician seemingly able to offer solutions. That is how many people see it, and evidently many feel the loss of freedom of movement is a price worth paying.

Perhaps the remain contingent could consider whether the EU could have compromised more on the issue. Normally if a politician or political party lose an election they are held responsible and key figures resign, yet when the EU effectively lost a referendum no one seems to feel that EU is in any way responsible. Just an observation.

The UK is less densly populated than Holland and Belgium and relies upon that population to provide necessary services. It also relies upon that dense population to provide the GDP it does thanks to the massively dense population in the South East where most of the people are. I would be more than happy to see the country getting more of its GDP from other areas but the government wouldn't.

 

[bramling]

The UK is less densly populated than Holland and Belgium and relies upon that population to provide necessary services. It also relies upon that dense population to provide the GDP it does thanks to the massively dense population in the South East where most of the people are. I would be more than happy to see the country getting more of its GDP from other areas but the government wouldn't.

There comes a point where the south-east, which by your own words already has a massively dense population, simply can no longer cope with the rising population size.

It’s quite clear from conversations being heard that many people feel this point is now too close for comfort, whilst people in other parts of the country look at the south-east and don’t wish to see their area go the same way.

People might be more reassured if they felt their was some kind of strategy for managing all this, but instead they see more and more people all trying to use the same infrastructure and services, and house prices rising seemingly out of control. Where I live, both houses either side of mine have recently changed hands, in both cases to ex Londoners who have chosen to leave London “because we’re sick of all the Europeans”.

 

[algytaylor]

I've enjoyed reading this discussion so far. Interesting reading the leave-voters points as personally I'd not heard that much in the way of reasoned reasons for Brexit (possibly my own fault).

The negotiations seem to be a bit of a mess at the moment - lots of posturing on both sides. Suppose that's to be expected, but there's not *that* long to get it sorted out, and no deal isn't in anyone's interests. The election hasn't done us any favours either, don't think the government's secure enough to be able to do the job properly.

 

[DarloRich]

Before Brexit, I attended two events in Manchester/Salford to hear structured debates from both sides. The first at MMU was fine enough (well organised and attended with plenty of free wine and canapés).

However, the event at MMU definitely had a pro-EU flavour (mainly lefty academics and students in the audience) and it wasn't long before Godwin's Law came into play, as a reason for remaining in the EU.

The second one, at Media City, was affected by very heavy rain and although the audience turnout was reduced, I found a better balance. For example, there were speakers from industry taking a pro-Brexit stance and giving examples how the so called “free market” was pretty much rigged.

Although I am a resolute Brexiter, both events provided an opportunity to have robust, yet friendly, discussions with remainers.

I duly voted for Brexit and, although in no way did I think we would win, I was surprised as anyone, in the early hours of the following morning, to hear that things were going the Brexit way.

Democracy had spoken and it appears that enough folk refused to be taken in by the endless BBC propaganda, testimony from various captains of industry, most of the media, a raft of left-wing luvvies, academics and financial experts, the political establishment (remember Osbourne’s lies?), Cameron’s letter warning everyone that the world would come to an end if we voted leave and being called thick, stupid or xenophobic.

Anyhow, since the vote, the big disappointment to me is the way that remainers have now become so bitter and twisted. Whereas once a friendly debate could be had, nowadays, any attempt at discussion soon degenerates into acrimony. Even reading this limited forum, you can tell that people are not right in the head about the result.

For some, unless they get some form of counselling, they will end up carrying their bitterness to the grave and that would be a waste of a life.

Despite the long prose above, I really wish the mods would ban this type of Brexit discussion forum, it has nothing to do with railways, is distorted with the weight of grieving remainers and all it succeeds in doing is winding people up.

Such wibble. No one is grieving. Some people are angry that an important decision that could have dire consequences for our nation has been taken with little or no thought, little or no understanding of the potential outcomes and with little or no scrutiny of the motives of those leading the charge for Brexit or of the people behind them.

This section is just utter silliness:

Democracy had spoken and it appears that enough folk refused to be taken in by the endless BBC propaganda, testimony from various captains of industry, most of the media, a raft of left-wing luvvies, academics and financial experts, the political establishment (remember Osbourne’s lies?), Cameron’s letter warning everyone that the world would come to an end if we voted leave and being called thick, stupid or xenophobic.

Anyhow, since the vote, the big disappointment to me is the way that remainers have now become so bitter and twisted. Whereas once a friendly debate could be had, nowadays, any attempt at discussion soon degenerates into acrimony. Even reading this limited forum, you can tell that people are not right in the head about the result.

For some, unless they get some form of counselling, they will end up carrying their bitterness to the grave and that would be a waste of a life.

And despite a long wibbly passage there is still no cogent argument as to why you voted Brexit. Tell us why, what made you think leaving was for the best? I hope it is more than just simply meaningless misunderstood statements like soverignty.

BTW - I accept that we voted to leave the EU and need to get on with doing that. I just don't trust that the mechanism of leaving, sitting as it is in a simple brexit dominated world, will deliver the best deal for the country as a whole.

 

[Groningen]

Dear Sox:

As a person from the Netherlands your view limits discussion about this subject. The discussion is clearly in the not train section and with a railconnection between London and Paris/Brussel it is clear that there is a link between Brexit and railway. I could go on, but than i would hurt your feelings.