Breich - Public Consultation on Station Closure

[jopsuk]

kind of with tbtc - it only makes sense if the next statement is about building a new town at Breich, really

 

[InOban]

I haven't done the arithmetic, but the subsidy per passenger must be on a par with that to the Caledonian Sleeper!

 

[DuncanS]

Its a political decision rather than a practical one. You could give Breich 4 tph and its not going to increase the amount of passengers by that much.

I can see the press release now "since we saved Breich passenger numbers have increased by 500% per day" and everyone will be saying its been a great success but the truth will be a different matter.

 

[mcmad]

shocking decision really. Just shows that the Scottish Government is too weak to make necessary closures. So no railway station closures for the forseeable but no money to pay for keeping them going.

 

[kieron]

Its a political decision rather than a practical one. You could give Breich 4 tph and its not going to increase the amount of passengers by that much.

I wonder. I don't really know the area, but from a cursory look Hartwood seems to be in a fairly similar situation (few people living in walking distance, nothing nearby to attract users), but it has 1tph each way and around 100 times as many ticket sales as Breich. Is there more to it than that?

 

[Stopper]

Hartwood and nearby places like Allanton isn’t much different in size to the Breich and Longridge area, the main difference is that Hartwood station is actually near some houses. I don’t see why Breich wouldn’t have reasonable usage with the hourly stopper calling. The Shotts line has loads of stations with very poor usage anyway, it’s only the Glasgow end, Shotts, Livingston and West Calder that do decent numbers.

If you cut low usage stations like Hartwood, Addiewell or Kingsknowe to 1tpd each way then they’d have similar numbers to Breich I’m sure.

 

[InOban]

Addiewell is the station for a major prison.

 

[Stopper]

I’m aware as I live in West Lothian, I was just pointing out that if you give a relatively small area/village 1tpd each way, the usage will obviously be very low.

 

[Altnabreac]

I suspect if Breich station is moved closer to the village and gets a 1tph service it would generate similar numbers of passengers to Addiewell or Hartwood (e.g. not many but a lot more than now.

Obviously Transport Scotland were persuaded by the strengths of West Lothian Council's arguments. Hopefully the option taken forward will be S3 to relocate the station to the actual village of Breich.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Daft idea time - build two Conon Bridge-style platforms nearer Breich village and rely on local door operation. The 385s even have the end gangways needed to make it work for multiple unit operation.

 

[kieron]

Addiewell is the station for a major prison.

Shotts prison? It's not that close to the railway line, and the few buses which go there go past Shotts station instead. That said, the prison service do actually recommend Addiewell here (and say nothing at all about buses), so there may be some people who use the station for that.

Whether there's anything like that vaguely near Breich, I don't know.

 

[alistairlees]

In the article:

“The overwhelming response to the consultation was in favour of keeping Breich Station open. Not only that, many respondents wished to see more services calling at Breich Station to increase patronage."

Of course it was, Humza. The only people who are going to respond to this are those who want it kept open yet don't have to pay for this or bear the opportunity cost of money being spent on this not benefitting far more people somewhere else. I expect most people would, if the facts were presented without bias, also agree (obviously this is an unprovable assertion!).

In many cases station closures are difficult decisions, but in this one it's really easy. It's a shame that the Scottish government does not have due care as to how its population's money is spent (I am not trying to make any particular political point here - just making a conclusion from the evidence relating to this particular event).

I'm sure a few people believe that stations should never be shut; that it's the "thin end of the wedge", etc. I strongly disagree - our focus should be entirely on bringing the greatest benefit for the largest number of people within the resources available. Not preserving the network in aspic, irrespective of how the needs of customers are changing. That will mean change; by definition every change will make more people better off.

I'm not trying to create an argument for closing rural lines or any line that's less than average in terms of usage - there's a network effect (easy access to rail) that will be lost if we go down that route - but some decisions like closing Breich should be really easy.

 

[InOban]

I quite agree. Perhaps if savings to be made by closing Breich had been ringfenced for investment in the area, then local community and its representatives might have chosen differently. It's called participatory budgeting.

 

[Altnabreac]

Shotts prison? It's not that close to the railway line, and the few buses which go there go past Shotts station instead. That said, the prison service do actually recommend Addiewell here (and say nothing at all about buses), so there may be some people who use the station for that.

Whether there's anything like that vaguely near Breich, I don't know.

Funnily enough it's Addiewell prison that is next to Addiewell station.

 

[PaulLothian]

Shotts prison? It's not that close to the railway line, and the few buses which go there go past Shotts station instead. That said, the prison service do actually recommend Addiewell here (and say nothing at all about buses), so there may be some people who use the station for that.

Whether there's anything like that vaguely near Breich, I don't know.

Addiewell Prison is five minutes' walk from Addiewell Station. It acts as the local prison for short term prisoners for North and South Lanarkshire, and the rail service therefore provides useful transport links.

Shotts Prison is almost two miles from Shotts Station.

 

[philthetube]

:I'm not trying to create an argument for closing rural lines or any line that's less than average in terms of usage - there's a network effect (easy access to rail) that will be lost if we go down that route - but some decisions like closing Breich should be really easy.

close any line with less than average usage and you end up with one

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I’m aware as I live in West Lothian, I was just pointing out that if you give a relatively small area/village 1tpd each way, the usage will obviously be very low.

Indeed, if you give any station only one train per day, usage will be quite low, even Edinburgh Waverley.

 

[Rob F]

Sometimes this forum amazes me. It is a railway interest group isn't it? On this thread we have people lamenting that a station hasn't been closed, on another we have multiple people pouring scorn on the idea that Skipton-Colne should be re-opened. With friends like this the railway doesn't need many enemies.

Rob

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Because I personally value objective critique more than blind support. If this forum was full of people going 'reopen all of the lines and stations now; anything else is trolling' and we all agreed it would be utterly tedious.

 

[najaB]

Sometimes this forum amazes me. It is a railway interest group isn't it? On this thread we have people lamenting that a station hasn't been closed...

In the case of Breich it really is a basket-case station that takes more money to keep alive than it takes in revenue. You realise that the proposal is to spend c £2M on a station that serves a population of about 200 people and has fewer than three passengers use it per week. At the same time, Leven is disconnected from the railway...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Sometimes this forum amazes me. It is a railway interest group isn't it? On this thread we have people lamenting that a station hasn't been closed, on another we have multiple people pouring scorn on the idea that Skipton-Colne should be re-opened. With friends like this the railway doesn't need many enemies.

Rob

Oh I don't know. I think, overall, averaged out, it's quite balanced. Plenty of extreme views on either end of the spectrum. You just have to plough through all the 'stuff' to come to a balanced opinion. There are plenty of speculative, blue-sky, fantasy ideas which need scorn pouring on them by the bucketful. What wears me down is the lack of perspective / consideration of others viewpoints by some members. My view is X, I am right, everyone else is wrong and if they have an opinion I shall shout and scream and call them names. Typical social media behaviour basically.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In the case of Breich it really is a basket-case station that takes more money to keep alive than it takes in revenue. You realise that the proposal is to spend c £2M on a station that has fewer than three passengers use it per week. At the same time, Leven is disconnected from the railway...

That applies to the entire rail network. Close it down and the government saves £billions per year.

The cost of retaining the station, as part of the overall cost of the improvement scheme was what? Now that it has to rebuilt as an afterthought, outside of the main scheme, it will cost more than it otherwise would have done (alongside the live railway, additional possessions etc). Who should bear that additional cost?

A similar situation applied to Norton Bridge (whose closure has been accepted). Within the costs of the overall scheme a replacement station built at the same time would have been small beer. Certainly cheaper than diverting and building over/underbridges for numerous very minor roads, used by a couple of tractors per day, which could have been stopped up. Similarly the cost of providing footbridges for rights of way used by a couple of ramblers per week. Yet those costs were accepted without question. Why accept some costs which could be avoided but not others? A facility exists, your proposed schemes requires its alteration / replacement, you pay for it.

 

[najaB]

That applies to the entire rail network. Close it down and the government saves £billions per year.

Nice, but I suspect you know full well that that analogy doesn't work since closing the network would cost the economy way more than the savings.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Nice, but I suspect you know full well that that analogy doesn't work since closing the network would cost the economy way more than the savings.

I'm not entirely convinced. Extrapolated benefits are dubious.
Close a small station, 3 people per week have to find alternatives. They do so, the country carries on.
Close Network South-East (yes I am old), 3m people have to find alternatives. They would do so, the country would carry on. After some fairly significant short term disruption. People who commute from Salisbury to London would no longer do so. Is that really such a bad thing from many aspects?

The only difference is scale. To the regular commuter at Breich (who it is suggested has passed away or was it simply retired anyway) the loss of their train service to work is as significant as it is to the commuter at Salisbury. Neither can get to work anymore it's just that 3m votes mean more than 1.

 

[najaB]

Neither can get to work anymore it's just that 3m votes mean more than 1.

Welcome to the real world. Government doesn't have a bottomless pot of money so its their obligation to provide the maximum utility for every pound spent. £2M spent on opening Levenmouth is hugely more useful than £2M spent on Breich.

 

[sheff1]

Shotts prison? It's not that close to the railway line, and the few buses which go there go past Shotts station instead. That said, the prison service do actually recommend Addiewell here (and say nothing at all about buses), so there may be some people who use the station for that.

When I last alighted at Addiewell around 20 others did as well. I was the only one who was not visiting HMP Addiewell.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

When I last alighted at Addiewell around 20 others did as well. I was the only one who was not visiting HMP Addiewell.

Single or return tickets?

 

[stu77]

Single or return tickets?

Open return surely ?

 

[Altnabreac]

In the case of Breich it really is a basket-case station that takes more money to keep alive than it takes in revenue. You realise that the proposal is to spend c £2M on a station that serves a population of about 200 people and has fewer than three passengers use it per week. At the same time, Leven is disconnected from the railway...

Point of Order: 450 population not 200 population.

Doesn't hugely change your point but just keeping things accurate.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I guess it's a good thing that at least the powers that be are prepared to invest in trying to make Breich work... as long as they go the whole hog rather than just replacing a rubbish and underused station with a less-rubbish but equally underused one.

If the replacement has better access, a decent car park, and is closer to those who might use it (and has a useful level of service) it could provide a blueprint for other underused stations on routes where engineering upgrades mean difficult decisions need to be made. I'm thinking of course of places like Ravensthorpe...