Break of journey

[ibendelow]

Hi there,

I have an off peak return from Carlisle to London.

I'm using my return part today but want to break my journey in Wigan for a couple of hours before traveling up to Carlisle.

I can travel up to Carlisle from Euston off peak at any time. However the station I wish to break my journey at is a peak station for the time of travel (1630).

Speaking to NRE, they tell me I can do this but I'm not so sure. Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks,

Ian

 

[higthomas]

There is no such thing as a peak station, only trains which aren't allowed on a ticket. Your ticket says you can't use trains which depart Euston before 0905. Therefore you can use any train leaving Wigan in the afternoon or evening.
Therefore what you want to do is fine

 

[miami]

You are absoutely right you can break your journey as many times as you want on the return as long as you are on a valid route. You could for example break in Birmingham overnight, then get the 0615 train from Birmingham to Wigan and break again for a couple of weeks, then return and catch the 0855 from Preston to Carlisle.

As long as your train did not leave london before 0905 and you're on a valid route, you're fine.


However do please let us know how you get on if there are checks in place at Wigan (looking for people attempting to break on the outbound part of the ticket). In my experience Virgin staff do not understand the ticket rules.

Your ticket will have either the link
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/3A

Or a code 3A in the corner.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/3A is the terms of your ticket. You are on the return part of the ticket, travelling from Euston, thus

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:05;
Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:00;
Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:00.
Valid on all Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement).

The rest of the information

For Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see restriction code GK.
For Super Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see restriction code 2Q.
For journeys via Nottingham, see restriction code CG.
For journeys to/via London Kings Cross and Stevenage, see restriction code 1K.
For journeys to/via London St Pancras International, see restriction code 7E.

Doesn't apply to you.

 

[ibendelow]

Thanks - even though a peak return to Euston from Wigan would be significantly more expensive because it's peak than an off peak return from Carlisle?

Essentially what I'm saying is people could just get a Carlisle - Euston off peak and save £££ just having a dodgy "break of journey" in Wigan every time.

 

[miami]

Thanks - even though a peak return to Euston from Wigan would be significantly more expensive because it's peak than an off peak return from Carlisle?

Essentially what I'm saying is people could just get a Carlisle - Euston off peak and save £££ just having a dodgy "break of journey" in Wigan every time.

Only on the return leg, and there's nothing dodgy about it, breaking, or terminating, your return journey is absolutely fine. On the outbound leg you can't break your journey, precisely because of the reason you state.

See this thread for the messy details: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141636

I suspect the upcoming fare trials will stop all break of journeys from all tickets, or maybe all non-anytime tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks - even though a peak return to Euston from Wigan would be significantly more expensive because it's peak than an off peak return from Carlisle?

The conditions of that fare are here: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=CAR&tkt=SVR
Restriction Code: 5F

Restriction Code: 5F

APPLICABLE DAYS

Mondays-Fridays

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
DEPART:

London Euston after 0429 and
before 0905;

Watford junction after 0429
and before 0900;

Milton Keynes Central after
0429 and before 0900.

Break of journey not allowed,
except to change trains.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
ARRIVE:

London Euston after 0429
and before 1005;

Watford Junction after 0429
and before 1020;

Milton Keynes Central after
0429 and before 1020.

Valid on all Caledonian
Sleeper services (with
supplement).

For Off-Peak journeys via
Hereford, Oxford & Newport see
Restriction GK.

For Super Off-Peak journeys
via Hereford, Oxford & Newport
see Restriction 2Q.

For travel via Nottingham, see
Restriction CG.

Code 9F applies_for journeys
from via Kings Cross &
Stevenage.

Code 9J applies for journeys
from/via St Pancras Int'l

SEASONAL VARIATIONS

Restrictions are lifted from
midday on Thursday 22nd
December 2016 until Monday 2nd
January 2017.

There is no requirement to have any knowledge of the price or conditions of any other product and no requirement to adhere to any conditions for any other product as quite simply they do not apply to you.

Essentially what I'm saying is people could just get a Carlisle - Euston off peak and save £££ just having a dodgy "break of journey" in Wigan every time.

Break of journey is not permitted on the outward portion of the ticket you hold.

Break of journey is permitted on the return portion of the ticket you hold.

 

[ibendelow]

Just an update on this:

I was told by the station staff at Euston and then the train manager in no uncertain terms that I would not be able to alight at Wigan. This was because the Euston - Wigan part of the journey was considered a peak service and therefore I would be charged for that journey if I attempted to get off, and I only had an off peak ticket to Carlisle.

Clearly, this is in contradiction to what NRE and I've been told on here.

It meant that I had to go back up to Carlisle and then rearrange to come down again the following day, at my own time/expense. What would people recommend I do? Would it be worth writing a polite letter explaining the circumstances?

Thanks,

Ian

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I would make a formal complaint, as they were wrong, with a view to receiving a refund of the ticket you had to buy to do the journey on the later date - though you are likely to have to push this hard including escalation to Passenger Focus. It is company policy that they would like to be right, but they are not. Indeed, I'm not even sure why you mentioned it to them.

How did they propose to stop you? (Wigan NW is not barriered).

 

[ibendelow]

She just said if there are ticket checks when you get off then you'll risk being charged for it.

The reason why I thought this could be the case is because I got off at Preston recently and there were ticket checks in place. She said I could get off at Lancaster and come back down as it wasn't a peak service from Preston onwards.

You're right, Neil, I don't know why I mentioned it. I see this now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

She just said if there are ticket checks when you get off then you'll risk being charged for it.

Worst case you could have declined to pay and returned to the platform to board the next train. OK, the NRCoT doesn't say it any more, but conventionally you haven't broken your journey until you leave the station. You can hang around on platforms all you like, and change trains at every station stop if that appeals to you.

The reason why I thought this could be the case is because I got off at Preston recently and there were ticket checks in place. She said I could get off at Lancaster and come back down as it wasn't a peak service from Preston onwards.

What a twit.

You're right, Neil, I don't know why I mentioned it. I see this now.

 

[miami]

What a surprise, another railway failure. Are those fraudsters (agents of Virgin Trains) off to court? They've decieved the OP, they've extracted money unfairly. It's clearly a misrepresentation, and I suspect it's a misrepresentation made with an intention to cheat.

 

[ibendelow]

I've emailed a letter of complaint to them, so we shall see what they say.

Thank you very much for the advice, it is appreciated.

Ian

 

[Hadders]

Virgin Trains spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a surprise, another railway failure. Are those fraudsters (agents of Virgin Trains) off to court? They've decieved the OP, they've extracted money unfairly. It's clearly a misrepresentation, and I suspect it's a misrepresentation made with an intention to cheat.

They've breached their franchise agreement before (putting peak restrictions northbound from MKC on SVRs) and it took a couple of months to fix that.

 

[najaB]

What a surprise, another railway failure. Are those fraudsters (agents of Virgin Trains) off to court? They've decieved the OP, they've extracted money unfairly. It's clearly a misrepresentation, and I suspect it's a misrepresentation made with an intention to cheat.

Never ascribe to malice that which is explained by incompetence.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Never ascribe to malice that which is explained by incompetence.

Agreed.

 

[yorkie]

Just an update on this:

I was told by the station staff at Euston and then the train manager in no uncertain terms that I would not be able to alight at Wigan. This was because the Euston - Wigan part of the journey was considered a peak service and therefore I would be charged for that journey if I attempted to get off, and I only had an off peak ticket to Carlisle.

Clearly, this is in contradiction to what NRE and I've been told on here.

It meant that I had to go back up to Carlisle and then rearrange to come down again the following day, at my own time/expense. What would people recommend I do? Would it be worth writing a polite letter explaining the circumstances?

Thanks,

Ian

There have been numerous reports of Virgin staff at Euston giving out incorrect information. This does not surprise me one bit. In fact, I'd be surprised if Virgin ever ensure that all their staff at Euston are knowledgeable.

Complain to the company.

You can also report a franchise breach to the DfT and a breach of consumer law to the ORR, but it may be worth seeing if Virgin will provide adequate compensation and assurances of re-training their staff before escalating the matter.

What a surprise, another railway failure. Are those fraudsters (agents of Virgin Trains) off to court? They've decieved the OP, they've extracted money unfairly. It's clearly a misrepresentation, and I suspect it's a misrepresentation made with an intention to cheat.

Sadly they are only breaching franchise agreements and consumer law. They are not breaching criminal law. It's not a level playing field; I wish it were! If it was, the staff at Euston (VT platforms) and Victoria (GTR platforms 13/14) would be frequently seeking assistance in our disputes section for prosecutions.

It will never be a level playing field.

Never ascribe to malice that which is explained by incompetence.

I think you need to tell that to the train companies who often persecute their customers for all the wrong reasons. There is more than just "incompetence" at Euston. They have been caught red-handed mistreating customers on numerous occasions, most famously over their refusal to accept a Travelcard in 2009. VT staff have shared concerns about the attitude and behaviour of staff at Euston over a period of many years.

Not knowing a rule is one thing, but refusing to look it up and making up lies and making threats, is taking things to a level that I'd expect to be sacked for in almost any responsible job in almost any other industry. If I behaved the way they do at work, I'd expect to be sacked.

This is not an isolated incident by any means.

 

[miami]

Virgin have been informed many times about their staff (not just front line but supervisors) being unwilling to read conditions of tickets and yet do nothing. As I understand it intention is determined by action. Virgins actions, thus intention, is to continue to make money by deceiving passengers. Isn't this the definition of fraud, a criminal offence?

 

[jkdd77]

It seems to me that recklessly telling falsehoods about the validity of a ticket, or denying passage at barriers to holders of valid tickets, could constitute a misleading commercial practice under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which would be a criminal offence:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/regulation/5/made.

(2) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph—

(a)if it contains false information and is therefore untruthful in relation to any of the matters in paragraph (4) or if it or its overall presentation in any way deceives or is likely to deceive the average consumer in relation to any of the matters in that paragraph, even if the information is factually correct; and

(b)it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

In respect of (b), the giving of false information as to ticket validity (or the refusal to let a valid ticket holder pass through a barrier) would be likely to cause the average consumer to "take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise" by unnecessarily buying another ticket, or a more expensive ticket.

 

[ibendelow]

I am currently "in conversation" with them, however they are unable to do anything yet as they cannot find the original reservation.

It was booked through my work, so I have provided the email address it was booked through, as well as the reference number and the email sent to me - but alas I'm not getting very far.

The train manager was perfectly nice about things, but the woman at the gate was certainly a little more combative in her approach to what I was able to do.

 

[najaB]

I think you need to tell that to the train companies who often persecute their customers for all the wrong reasons. There is more than just "incompetence" at Euston. They have been caught red-handed mistreating customers on numerous occasions, most famously over their refusal to accept a Travelcard in 2009. VT staff have shared concerns about the attitude and behaviour of staff at Euston over a period of many years.

There's many different types of incompetence - it sounds like there's the inability of some frontline staff to change entrenched views, and poor people management by their line management.

The point I was making is that a lot of these problems are caused by people who are rubbish at doing their job but honestly believe they are doing things the right way. How many times have we heard about RPIs/barrier staff saying things like "I don't have to look the restriction up, I know them already"?

While they do exist, I believe that few of them leave home in the morning intent on doing passengers over just because they can. If someone was intent on causing grief, they wouldn't choose to pick a passenger up on something which they can objectively be proven to be wrong about.

 

[yorkie]

While they do exist, I believe that few of them leave home in the morning intent on doing passengers over just because they can. If someone was intent on causing grief, they wouldn't choose to pick a passenger up on something which they can objectively be proven to be wrong about.

Yes, few staff do have such a view, and the chances of encountering staff who are intent on causing grief at stations like Edinburgh Waverley or York are almost zero. But go to places like Euston, King's Cross and Victoria and it's like another world at times. Some of the GWR revenue/gateline staff in the London area can be like that too (as I know all too well). Sad but true. If you've not experienced it much, then you're very lucky.

 

[najaB]

But go to places like Euston, King's Cross and Victoria and it's like another world at times. Some of the GWR revenue/gateline staff in the London area can be like that too (as I know all too well). Sad but true. If you've not experienced it much, then you're very lucky.

I hate to bring up the North/South divide but I honestly think this is a valid observation... It's do to with the pace of life and culture of London and its environs - there's a presumption that people are trying it on that doesn't exist elsewhere which leads to persistent suspicion about people's motives and a default cynical attitude.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Given the recent Lancaster/Preston nonsense and this are Virgins management having some form of clamp down? Throw in the mix poorly / under trained staff and you can see how the above happens.

We had problems with barrier staff at Euston not knowing that Off Peaks to Cambrian destinations were valid in the evening peak a few years back but ive not heard of it recently.

 

[crehld]

Given the recent Lancaster/Preston nonsense and this are Virgins management having some form of clamp down? Throw in the mix poorly / under trained staff and you can see how the above happens.

We had problems with barrier staff at Euston not knowing that Off Peaks to Cambrian destinations were valid in the evening peak a few years back but ive not heard of it recently.

Virgin barrier staff at Euston also refuse to acknowledge that advance tickets are valid on the next available service if you miss your train because of a delayed inward bound connection and will insist you purchase a new one at full rate to complete your journey or insist you delay your journey further still by obtaining special permission from a supervisor in the ticket office.

Poor training coupled with poor customer service skills and the poor attitude described by najaB are contributory factors.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Virgin barrier staff at Euston also refuse to acknowledge that advance tickets are valid on the next available service if you miss your train because of a delayed inward bound connection and will insist you purchase a new one at full rate to complete your journey or insist you delay your journey further still by obtaining special permission from a supervisor in the ticket office.

Poor training coupled with poor customer service skills and the poor attitude described by najaB are contributory factors.

How are the barrier staff to know that your inbound was delayed? The situation presented by the OP is clear cut. I see no issue in requiring validation before moving an advance onto a later service. The time taken to get that validation may be for another discussion.

 

[yorkie]

How are the barrier staff to know that your inbound was delayed?

Apologies for answering for crehld but I understand the staff were informed of this fact, but still claimed that the ticket is still invalid.

The barrier staff were not denying the fact that the inbound train was delayed, but they were denying the fact that the ticket is valid on a later train in these circumstances.

I consider such behaviour to be totally unacceptable, but not surprising at Euston, given their reputation for poor customer service, and inventing rules that do not exist.

The situation presented by the OP is clear cut. I see no issue in requiring validation before moving an advance onto a later service. The time taken to get that validation may be for another discussion.

There is no requirement for any 'validation'; the ticket is automatically valid on the next train. If I was delayed further by such an erroneous requirement, I'd ensure compensation for the additional delay was was paid out by Virgin rather than the company that caused the initial delay.

 

[sheff1]

How are the barrier staff to know that your inbound was delayed? I see no issue in requiring validation before moving an advance onto a later service.

If Virgin provided the barrier staff with the correct equipment (which is nowadays carried by the majority of passengers) they could validate the delay in seconds. You could also argue that validation is not required - the staff could simply believe what the passenger told them.

Either way, already delayed passengers should not be delayed further.

EDIT: from yorkie's reply, I see the staff acknowledged the delay but denied travel due to some made up rule - exactly the sort of thing I would expect from Virgin's awesome customer focused staff, which brings us back round to the OP being fed totally false information by multiple Virgin staff.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If the barrier staff were aware of the delay and the validity of the ticket, then any further delay is a bad thing.

For other delays, there is a consideration. It is impractical, and perhaps undesirable*, to equip all gate guards with ticket validation facilities. We all want to get through the gateline as quickly as possible - that means that all valid tickets** should be accepted as they stand and passengers proceed to the train ASAP.

*Do you want to be in the line behind one of two or three gateline staff who take time to validate an "unusual" ticket? Delays are bad. Should your delay further delay others? Better to have a "ticket confirmation" facility on the station. Let properly trained staff deal with exceptions and the others work within their capabilities.

** Advances or open tickets valid on the service. Just like the OPs.

 

[Hadders]

But surely if there's a 'ticket confirmation' facility it should be located where the tickets are checked, ie the gate line.

Is this too much to ask?