Break of journey

[Puffing Devil]

But surely if there's a 'ticket confirmation' facility it should be located where the tickets are checked, ie the gate line.

Is this too much to ask?

Yes - there are not enough exceptions to warrant the staffing.

I am sympathetic, I also have to pay fares to fund my travel.

 

[Hadders]

The staff manning the barriers should be able to look up whether or not a ticket is valid. With a smart phone or tablet this need not take more than a few seconds. Staff manning the gate lines need to be responsible for this in my view and not simply abdicate their responsibility. It might also encourage them to get it right.

Let's face it you, I or most of us on this forum could do this at the gate line. It's not that difficult.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The staff manning the barriers should be able to look up whether or not a ticket is valid. With a smart phone or tablet this need not take more than a few seconds. Staff manning the gate lines need to be responsible for this in my view and not simply abdicate their responsibility. It might also encourage them to get it right.

Let's face it you, I or most of us on this forum could do this at the gate line. It's not that difficult.

This is where we disagree.

I do not want to wait while someone takes "a few seconds" to look up a specific service and confirm a delay. I do not want them to be responsible for anything else: they can't cope with the responsibilities that they already have.

If I'm delayed, I'm happy to accept that I'll need to spend a few more minutes sorting out my onward travel. It already happens with planes, and Eurostar delays.

 

[yorkie]

I suggest you write to the company to complain if you are held up again at a gateline.

Staff should let all valid fares through in a timely manner.

If they are unable to easily verify if a fare is valid they should accept it as valid. It's up to the rail industry to ensure staff are able to avoid incurring additional delay to any customer.

There is no requirement for 'validation' and I don't support any proposals to introduce further delay to customers by introducing such a requirement.

 

[miami]

Any exceptions can be handled by the guard on board. The passenger should never be delayed, especially when Virgin are knowingly allowing its staff to mislead passengers and buy tickets they don't need. Virgin's systematic peddling of misinformation, and profiting from them is, i'm sure, criminal.

 

[Hadders]

This is where we disagree.

I do not want to wait while someone takes "a few seconds" to look up a specific service and confirm a delay. I do not want them to be responsible for anything else: they can't cope with the responsibilities that they already have.

If I'm delayed, I'm happy to accept that I'll need to spend a few more minutes sorting out my onward travel. It already happens with planes, and Eurostar delays.

We do disagree here. I was delayed at Kings Cross by Virgin unnecessarily when I tried to pas through the gate line a few months back with a perfectly valid ticket.

Gate line member of staff says not valid, his manager also says not valid. Why should I have to go to some other point on the station to have validity confirmed.

Just train the staff on the gate line correctly, don't tell them rubbish like no off peak tickets are allowed in the evening peak and give them the tools to look things up.

Eurostar and air planes are different as there is a requirement to check in ahead of departure. There is no such requirement on the national rail network. How far in advance should I arrive at Kings Cross ahead of the 1743 departure to ensure my ticket can be correctly validated?

 

[Puffing Devil]

We do disagree here. I was delayed at Kings Cross by Virgin unnecessarily when I tried to pas through the gate line a few months back with a perfectly valid ticket.

Gate line member of staff says not valid, his manager also says not valid. Why should I have to go to some other point on the station to have validity confirmed.

Just train the staff on the gate line correctly, don't tell them rubbish like no off peak tickets are allowed in the evening peak and give them the tools to look things up.

Eurostar and air planes are different as there is a requirement to check in ahead of departure. There is no such requirement on the national rail network. How far in advance should I arrive at Kings Cross ahead of the 1743 departure to ensure my ticket can be correctly validated?

Was your delay caused by incorrect applications of restrictions or was it an advance ticket on which you had already been delayed?

If the former, you have my sympathy and support. Gate staff should be able to deduce which tickets are valid or not.

My contention is related to the use of advance tickets following a delay to a preceding service. I still believe that the TOC should have the opportunity to validate the delay before accepting. At a large station, such as Euston, it makes sense for this to be centralised. Passengers may even benefit from having a point where they can go to have their onward journey replanned.

I would also contend that the number of passengers who missed the "next available service" due to this rebooking would be minimal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "next available service" from Euston to Manchester is 20 minutes later. A Pendolino seats several hundred. How many staff do you propose to dedicate to this?

You've seen what happens when a flight is cancelled, presumably? The numbers are similar.

An Advance ticket shows the services it can be used on (OK, the odd person may ignore suggested unreserved trains, but most won't). It'd take 5 seconds with RTT to verify that the previous train was late if they would want to do that.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The "next available service" from Euston to Manchester is 20 minutes later. A Pendolino seats several hundred. How many staff do you propose to dedicate to this?

You've seen what happens when a flight is cancelled, presumably? The numbers are similar.

An Advance ticket shows the services it can be used on (OK, the odd person may ignore suggested unreserved trains, but most won't). It'd take 5 seconds with RTT to verify that the previous train was late if they would want to do that.

How many passengers per train need to validate an advance ticket? 1 or 2? Not a huge overhead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many passengers per train need to validate an advance ticket? 1 or 2? Not a huge overhead.

There are going to be more than 1 or 2 people with Advance tickets on a given Virgin train from Euston. Or are you referring to situations where a previous train in a connectional journey was delayed/cancelled?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Or are you referring to situations where a previous train in a connectional journey was delayed/cancelled?

^^ This.

Everyone else should be able to pass through the gateline. Advances are specifically valid (hence the need to validate changes). Other tickets should be accepted with no spurious rejection of conditions. That requires properly trained staff, which we have a right to expect.

For the avoidance of doubt - I'm only suggesting that those passengers with "delayed" advances get approval to travel. This is to save time at the gate and to have a properly trained member of staff with access to official train running data.

 

[miami]

More evidence of Virgin Trains WCML systematic misleading of passengers which has the effect of cheating them out of money - a train stating it's a "peak time train"

This was reinforced by an audible statement that "this is a peak time train off peak tickets are not valid"

Lets look at section 2 of the fraud act:

Fraud by false representation (Section 2)
The defendant:

made a false representation correct - tickets with restrictions VN,VM,5F,1E, and far more, are off peak tickets that are valid on this service.
dishonestly
knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading correct
with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss. correct - they want to sell peak time tickets
The offence is entirely focused on the conduct of the defendant.

So the question is "are they doing it dishonestly". To quote: "The question of dishonesty' is one for the jury and submissions of no case to answer should not be acceded to based only on the issue of dishonesty."

 

[najaB]

This was reinforced by an audible statement that "this is a peak time train off peak tickets are not valid"

Was that exactly what was said or a paraphrasing?

 

[miami]

"this is a peak time train" was certainly said
"off peak tickets are not valid" was also certainly said

There may have been a conjunction ('and' for example) between them, and the "off peak tickets" may have been followed up by "on this train", I wasn't quick enough to record the announcement. It was a manual announcement by the guard.

I wonder if it's the same guard ALR mentions here (this was the 0930 ex Crewe)

That's not VTWC's interpretation. When on a day out to Manchester a few years ago with two children in tow, the train manager on the outward journey refused to accept that SOR (Standard Anytime Return) tickets were valid in first class on a Pendolino on a weekend (a concession that VTWC has offered for many years). After politely and calmly explaining why the tickets were indeed valid, and eventually deciding to stop talking when I could see the conversation was going nowhere, the train manager said that the BTP would be waiting for us at Manchester Piccadilly. Unsurprisingly, the BTP weren't there. I'm sure the train manager involved was the same one who regularly claimed that the 08:29 Crewe to Euston (07:55 ex. Manchester) is a "peak train" and refused to accept off-peak tickets from stations in Wales.

It is normal behaviour on the WCML. This isn't a one-off. This isn't even a guard getting VK and VM confused. Vrigin operate a systematic attack on people using off peak tickets. Not just guards, not just barrier staff, not just team leaders, but also "Dave", who is apparently the oracle of Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's about time a system was developed that could be used to scan the 2D barcode on any ticket and say, definitively, if it is valid on a specific train or not, and perhaps to print out a piece of till roll with an explanation why not and advice on what to do if it is not.

It would not be difficult to implement that at all.

 

[najaB]

"this is a peak time train" was certainly said
"off peak tickets are not valid" was also certainly said.

The reason I ask is because a statement such as "Off peak tickets from Crewe are not valid*." would be true. "Off peak tickets may not be valid" would also be true.

"This is a peak time train" is *technically* wrong, but effectively true again for people with tickets from Crewe*.

*When speaking of tickets to London.

 

[miami]

The reason I ask is because a statement such as "Off peak tickets from Crewe are not valid." would be true. "Off peak tickets may not be valid" would also be true.

"This is a peak time train" is *technically* true again for people with tickets from Crewe.

No, Crewe was not mentioned. May was not mentioned. There is no such thing as a "peak time train", only ticket restrictions.

 

[najaB]

There is no such thing as a "peak time train", only ticket restrictions.

I know, but it's a peak time train (to the layperson's understanding of the term) if your ticket is from Crewe to London. I erred above - what I wrote isn't what I intended to write. I'll edit the post to make it clearer.

 

[miami]

I know, but it's a peak time train (to the layperson's understanding of the term) if your ticket is from Crewe to London. I erred above - what I wrote isn't what I intended to write. I'll edit the post to make it clearer.

However for those travelling on the advertised connection from Rhyl via Chester and Crewe, it's not. They may well be turned off this train thinking their 'off peak' ticket is not valid

 

[najaB]

However for those travelling on the advertised connection from Rhyl via Chester and Crewe, it's not. They may well be turned off this train thinking their 'off peak' ticket is not valid

That's why I asked exactly what was said.

 

[miami]

That's why I asked exactly what was said.

As I said, there was no "may", no "some". It was made clear both on the door and on the announcement that off peak tickets were not valid.

I normally catch a train ex-Wales where this announcement isn't made, but due to my train from Shrewsbury and beyond being late I was stuck with the ex-MAN connection to London.

 

[najaB]

As I said, there was no "may", no "some". It was made clear both on the door and on the announcement that off peak tickets were not valid.

Which was incorrect.

 

[ibendelow]

Have finally received a response from Virgin about the original post, their response is as follows:

Dear Mr Bendelow,

Thank you for your further email.

I am sorry to hear about the confusion surrounding the restrictions placed on the ticket you were travelling with.

I have spoken with our Commercial Issues Team today and they have confirmed that if you were planning to exit the train at Wigan North Western, you would have been required to purchase an excess fare as that train is classed as a peak service to all stations south of Preston, Preston being inclusive.

You are indeed entitled to break your journey on an Off Peak return ticket but when travelling on that particular service a valid break in the journey would have to be at a station north of Preston.

Please accept my apologies for any conflicting information provided to you by Virgin Trains members of staff. If you do have any questions about your ticket in the future it would be better to contact us here at Customer Relations on the details listed above.

 

[jkdd77]

That answer is a lot of manure. It makes me angry that they can shamelessly lie like that (and yes, I believe they are lying and not merely mistaken):-x

Have finally received a response from Virgin about the original post, their response is as follows:

Dear Mr Bendelow,

Thank you for your further email.

I am sorry to hear about the confusion surrounding the restrictions placed on the ticket you were travelling with.

I have spoken with our Commercial Issues Team today and they have confirmed that if you were planning to exit the train at Wigan North Western, you would have been required to purchase an excess fare as that train is classed as a peak service to all stations south of Preston, Preston being inclusive.

You are indeed entitled to break your journey on an Off Peak return ticket but when travelling on that particular service a valid break in the journey would have to be at a station north of Preston.

Please accept my apologies for any conflicting information provided to you by Virgin Trains members of staff. If you do have any questions about your ticket in the future it would be better to contact us here at Customer Relations on the details listed above.

 

[AlterEgo]

Woeful.

 

[General Zod]

I have spoken with our Commercial Issues Team today and they have confirmed that if you were planning to exit the train at Wigan North Western, you would have been required to purchase an excess fare as that train is classed as a peak service to all stations south of Preston, Preston being inclusive.

You are indeed entitled to break your journey on an Off Peak return ticket but when travelling on that particular service a valid break in the journey would have to be at a station north of Preston.

Is this information in the public domain or in any publicly accessible knowledge base; at least have the facts corroborated ? Perhaps it is in the dark and hidden depths of a dusty vault in the imagination of someone from Virgin Customers Services.

 

[Hadders]

What a load of rubbish. Another example of rules being made up...

 

[ibendelow]

What options would be available to me now?

 

[Rover]

You are indeed entitled to break your journey on an Off Peak return ticket but when travelling on that particular service a valid break in the journey would have to be at a station north of Preston.

Where have they got this rubbish from?
Have they not read the 3A restriction?
These people should not be working on the railway!

 

[Hadders]

What options would be available to me now?

Transport Focus. Alternatively when I've needed to escalate complaints I send a concise, old fashioned letter to the Company Secretary via the Registerwd Iffice of the company. I always send it by 1st class recorded delivery. I've always had a high degree of success with this method.