Bracknell MP - service to Waterloo unacceptable

[nw1]

Good suggestion!

It was SWT that started the downgrade of the service when they introduced 455s on evening and weekend services, thus softening up passengers for inner suburban stock as standard.

Personally I prefer the 450s to 458s. Overall better ambience.

I think the 701s would be fine if they had seat back tables, but they don't.

Indeed, and at one time (1982, see post above) a majority of the peak services between 1700 and 1800 were CIGs, which would be equivalent to running 444s on prime peak Reading services today!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Until you get to Reading, which is a pig for traffic.

I'm from Caversham, I should know! There are shortcuts though if you're local!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Until you get to Reading. The council is pro-public transport (unlike a few people on these forums!) so deliberately doesn't make it too easy to reach the town centre by car.

As I said before no one is going to drive north, south or west to catch a train into London when London is so close. Bracknell is in the Greater London Urban Area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2023 ==

Anyway, back to railways rather cars as a mode, and in particular the slow down of services on the line. Until the 2004 timetable overhaul there was an 0713 from Reading that ran all stations to Ascot, then Staines, Richmond and Clapham Junction, arr Waterloo at 0826. I used to catch it most days and very popular and generally reliable it was too.

Nowadays the equivalent is the 0711 from Reading that makes five additional stops and arrives at Waterloo 13 min later.

The idea of RBC being pro PT is a discussion for another thread - the town centre is not terrible if you come in the right way.

They will drive to the nearest station if the train is up the spout, because it's Bracknell and >80% of residents will own or have access to cars.
BF being in the Greater London urban area is only because of ribbon development, irrelevant to its actual location and connections.

Back on topic as you say, the slow down on the line is due to the relative importance of previously minor stops growing (as others have mentioned). The only real solution to speed things up (and frequency will not make it particularly more attractive - the level crossing issues that killed Airtrack at the London end will put a ceiling on much higher frequencies) is building the proposed link from Heathrow Terminal 5 to the Reading (Waterloo) line and SWML.
But that is a pipeline improvement, I acknowledge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2023 ==

Looking at the journey I do on a regular basis, where it takes 30+ minutes to get from Bracknell (Great Hollands / Birch Hill) to the Oracle Riverside car park, the train is just about as competitive (in fact for my office which is in Apex Plaza, it is quicker), if the trains were more frequent and more reliable, it would actually be quicker, but I need the flexibility to leave at a moment's notice and get back home if necessary.

Depending on where in London I needed to be, the only reason I would drive into Reading would be because work are paying for my parking anyway, so it makes an easier expenses claim.

Anybody who claims that Bracknell to Reading via the A329(M) is an easy journey does not do it on a regular basis and certainly not around rush hour

The train can be competitive in the Reading direction, but realistically, in times of disruption from Brk. itself, you'll choose the Reading or Farnborough fasts.
It's not easy if you come off at TVP and use the A4, instead of other routes at Suttons Seeds rbt. Other routes, or rat runs, should I say are available.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm from Caversham, I should know! There are shortcuts though if you're local!

If you're local that's the point.

In any case I'd drive to Hatton Cross if I was heading towards London and the trains were up the spout. Only 3 miles further away than Reading and similar journey time.

 

[Jimini]

I'm from Caversham, I should know! There are shortcuts though if you're local!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Do you drive over Christchurch Bridge to avoid the queues on Caversham / Reading bridges?

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you're local that's the point.

In any case I'd drive to Hatton Cross if I was heading towards London and the trains were up the spout. Only 3 miles further away than Reading and similar journey time.

Surprised Hatton Cross is so close tbh, and the Tube isn't as fast as the Intercity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2023 ==

Do you drive over Christchurch Bridge to avoid the queues on Caversham / Reading bridges?

Lived in the NW for 3 years, but I still reckon you could get a Smart car over there at 20 with some decent cornering skills .
The last man who tried with a BMW ended up having his car fished out the Thames

 

[Goldfish62]

Surprised Hatton Cross is so close tbh, and the Tube isn't as fast as the Intercity.

The tube wins with frequency and once you're on it your connected to the central London public transport network.

I have known people in the past in Bracknell who would use this way for their regular commute. Another popular station is Osterley.

 

[nw1]

The tube wins with frequency and once you're on it your connected to the central London public transport network.

I have known people in the past in Bracknell who would use this way for their regular commute. Another popular station is Osterley.

One thing that is apparent is that the distance from Bracknell to Greater London is much smaller than you think. The railway line appears to loop significantly southwards to Longcross then northwards again, making it seem a much bigger distance from say Ascot to Staines than it actually is.

I didn't realise for example how close to the M3 the line gets - almost adjacent at one point. I always imagined it was two or three miles north.

Also means that Longcross to Woking isn't as far as all that - perhaps doable as a walk in half a day, and looking at a map, an almost continuous off-road route is possible. About the same as Woking to Guildford?

 

[JonathanH]

The railway line appears to loop significantly southwards to Longcross then northwards again, making it seem a much bigger distance from say Ascot to Staines than it actually is.

Indeed. It basically is a west-east railway that runs north-south through Virginia Water.

 

[Craig1122]

Indeed. It basically is a west-east railway that runs north-south through Virginia Water.

I'm guessing that Virginia Water lake was the issue when the line was built as the line skirts round the royal park. A straight line from Ascot to Egham takes you through the middle!

 

[Goldfish62]

One thing that is apparent is that the distance from Bracknell to Greater London is much smaller than you think. The railway line appears to loop significantly southwards to Longcross then northwards again, making it seem a much bigger distance from say Ascot to Staines than it actually is.

I didn't realise for example how close to the M3 the line gets - almost adjacent at one point. I always imagined it was two or three miles north.

With a clear run down the A322 and the M3 the M25 is less than 15 min away.

Just beyond Longcross towards Virginia Water the line briefly runs alongside the M3, albeit with a local road sandwiched in between.

 

[nw1]

With a clear run down the A322 and the M3 the M25 is less than 15 min away.

Everywhere in this area is closer together than I imagined. Didn't think Bracknell was so close to Bagshot, for example.

Possibly I thought this way because a) my only real journeys through the area by road have been the M3, where you don't notice anything much anyway and b) when travelling by rail, the services are relatively slow, making it seem like you're covering a fair amount of distance.

As another example Guildford-Reading seems about 30 miles by rail (even the non-stop IC services in the 80s took over half an hour). Yet the view-finder on Gibbet Hill near Hindhead suggests Reading is 30 miles away, meaning it must be considerably closer than that to Guildford.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unannounced by SWR but showing in timetables is that from next week up services are slowed by 3 minutes, and depart from Reading at XX09 and XX39 instead of the current XX12 and XX42. This is carried forward into the May timetable. The down services remain unchanged.

Very bizarre to tinker with timings that have remained unchanged for the past 17 years just at a time when the planned introduction of high performance units should in future result in faster journey times (there's plenty of evidence for this when 707s have appeared on Reading services).

Does anyone at SWR actually know what they're doing anymore?

 

[Craig1122]

The 2004 timetable, while basically sound, has a number of minor performance issues which probably could and should have been tackled years ago. It's very common for up Reading's to run late, this in turn delays the up Weybridge at Virginia Water and up Windsor at Staines.

I'm not familiar enough to say what the most common cause is but if this tweak enables them to present right time then it's long overdue.

Someone in another group recently shared a section of timetable from May 72 that lasted just one year. Off peak pattern was 2tph fast Waterloo to Staines, 1tph then all stations to Reading and 1tph fast to Bracknell then all stations. Journey time 57/67 minutes Waterloo-Reading. It's only an extract but presumably Ascot-Staines was also served by Camberley trains.

 

[nw1]

The 2004 timetable, while basically sound, has a number of minor performance issues which probably could and should have been tackled years ago. It's very common for up Reading's to run late, this in turn delays the up Weybridge at Virginia Water and up Windsor at Staines.

I'm not familiar enough to say what the most common cause is but if this tweak enables them to present right time then it's long overdue.

Someone in another group recently shared a section of timetable from May 72 that lasted just one year. Off peak pattern was 2tph fast Waterloo to Staines, 1tph then all stations to Reading and 1tph fast to Bracknell then all stations. Journey time 57/67 minutes Waterloo-Reading. It's only an extract but presumably Ascot-Staines was also served by Camberley trains.

I actually remember this from a May 1972 timetable I had at one point (obtained it from an open day on the Watercress line in 1987). ISTR the times out of Waterloo were xx00 Reading and Camberley line (divide), xx30 Camberley line and xx40 super-fast though I misremembered the latter as also calling at Ascot.

What then happened in 1973?

I think 1972 was when CORs were finally withdrawn (which had been displaced from Portsmouth) and the line was presumably operated fully with CIGs and VEPs (+HAPs and EPBs at peak times) for the first time.

 

[Beebman]

Sometime in the early 90s when I was commuting from Paddington, the GWML was closed just before the evening peak due to a lineside building fire involving gas canisters (ISTR it was near Southall). Passengers were redirected to Waterloo where an 8-CIG formation was ready with a non-stop additional service to Reading. Other than some slowing just before Barnes and Ascot (where at both places stopping trains were overtaken) and before entering Reading the journey was indeed non-stop and I timed it at 56 minutes. It's another example of the sort of journey time which could be achieved on the route.

 

[Craig1122]

What then happened in 1973?

The accompanying comments suggest that the great & good of Ascot (And I suspect possibly Sunningdale and Virginia Water) made it known that they were far too important for a train to sail through non stop.

It wouldn't be the first time the population of an area like that has a disproportionate swap on railway operations.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 2004 timetable, while basically sound, has a number of minor performance issues which probably could and should have been tackled years ago. It's very common for up Reading's to run late, this in turn delays the up Weybridge at Virginia Water and up Windsor at Staines.

I'm not familiar enough to say what the most common cause is but if this tweak enables them to present right time then it's long overdue.

It's true that up trains are often a minute or two late by Bracknell (it seems to be the Earley - Winnersh section where time is lost), but still usually make up the time by Waterloo, so a tweak of the intermediate times may have been appropriate rather than a further extending of schedules. The scheduled journey time from Clapham Junction to Waterloo is generally very generous with up Reading trains often arriving 3-4 min early.

I see the timetable runs until early October meaning presumably that the leaf-fall timetable adding a further three minutes will again be introduced. So that's total of six additional minutes compared with today!

As I said above, the timing is bizarre after 17 years given that SWR themselves have stated that the 701s when they're introduced are expected to speed up journey times.

 

[nw1]

The accompanying comments suggest that the great & good of Ascot (And I suspect possibly Sunningdale and Virginia Water) made it known that they were far too important for a train to sail through non stop.

It wouldn't be the first time the population of an area like that has a disproportionate swap on railway operations.

Sorry, it turns out I can actually answer my own question

Waterloo to Reading is included as Table 21 of the Western Region 1973 timetable on Timetable World.

The xx40 super-fast still exists, with one extra stop at Ascot. Bracknell journey time is 43 mins and Waterloo to Reading is exactly one hour.

The other service in 1973 was an xx59 calling at Richmond, Feltham, Staines and all to Reading, Bracknell in 54 mins, Reading in 1hr11.

The timetable doesn't show Camberley line services but one supposes that the xx59 might have divided and there was another service at xx29 towards Camberley.

A quirky feature of the 1973 timetable is a Wokingham originator at 0700 for Waterloo, formed off the 0629 from Virginia Water arriving 0653. First time I've seen something start at Wokingham. Second class only, so presumably formed of EPBs.

 

[Craig1122]

It's true that up trains are often a minute or two late by Bracknell (it seems to be the Earley - Winnersh section where time is lost), but still usually make up the time by Waterloo, so a tweak of the intermediate times may have been appropriate rather than a further extending of schedules. The scheduled journey time from Clapham Junction to Waterloo is generally very generous with up Reading trains often arriving 3-4 min early.

This probably reflects the move towards measuring right time performance at all stations, IMO a good thing. But also a tendency, by no means unique to SWR, to add minutes in for performance but never to also take them out where appropriate. That's unfortunate as while right time is the number one thing passengers ask for it's also true that faster attracts more business.

 

[Goldfish62]

This probably reflects the move towards measuring right time performance at all stations, IMO a good thing. But also a tendency, by no means unique to SWR, to add minutes in for performance but never to also take them out where appropriate. That's unfortunate as while right time is the number one thing passengers ask for it's also true that faster attracts more business.

Yes, agree completely. These additional minutes tend to get baked in.

I imagine SWR is getting quite a pasting about punctuality. It seems to have gone downhill in the last few months.

Introducing the change, unannounced, next week rather than waiting until May is really odd though.

 

[43096]

It's true that up trains are often a minute or two late by Bracknell (it seems to be the Earley - Winnersh section where time is lost), but still usually make up the time by Waterloo, so a tweak of the intermediate times may have been appropriate rather than a further extending of schedules. The scheduled journey time from Clapham Junction to Waterloo is generally very generous with up Reading trains often arriving 3-4 min early.

I see the timetable runs until early October meaning presumably that the leaf-fall timetable adding a further three minutes will again be introduced. So that's total of six additional minutes compared with today!

As I said above, the timing is bizarre after 17 years given that SWR themselves have stated that the 701s when they're introduced are expected to speed up journey times.

It's classic WorstGroup and a trait brought in from FGW, notably Paddington-Reading timings. Rather than addressing the performance issues' root cause, they just chuck more padding in the timetable and hope they go away. Of course that just encourages more sloppy operating, so they add more time in to the schedule etc etc.

Timekeeping is noticeably worse under SWR than it was under SWT: there is a lack of any sense of "getting on with it" and just happily losing a few minutes. Have they brought Bristol driving standards in?

 

[infobleep]

Yes, agree completely. These additional minutes tend to get baked in.

I imagine SWR is getting quite a pasting about punctuality. It seems to have gone downhill in the last few months.

Introducing the change, unannounced, next week rather than waiting until May is really odd though.

I'm surprised they had the resources or considered it important enough to change it now.

For example when they rerouted the 18:15 London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour service via Woking, with a stop at Clapham Junction, they waited until the December 2022 timetable rather than introduce it sooner.

As for the leaf fall timetable, may be that will be the same.

The New Line Guildford trains via Cobham use to depart at x37 and x37 and then 3 minutes earlier during leaf fall. Now it is just x04 and x34 outside the leaf fall timetable period.

 

[Goldfish62]

This probably reflects the move towards measuring right time performance at all stations, IMO a good thing. But also a tendency, by no means unique to SWR, to add minutes in for performance but never to also take them out where appropriate. That's unfortunate as while right time is the number one thing passengers ask for it's also true that faster attracts more business.

The 0612 and 0642 from Reading often get delayed on the approach to Virginia Water by late running trains from Weybridge, which for some reason in the early AM peak run in front of the up Readings.

The up Weybridges remain at 0645 and 0714 from VW while the up Readings from VW move ahead a minute from 0649 and 0719 to 0648 and 0718 respectively. All that means is an extra minute delay on the approach to Virginia Water, with the delay after VW remaining exactly the same as now.