Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?

[Oswyntail]

There would be demand just not enough to justify even a skeleton service on the main routes, as stated above the railways need subsidy every other day of the year so how can anyone think that a Boxing day service would cover its costs?

If the (highly-dubious) proposition that railways run at a a loss because of their nature is accepted, why insist that Boxing Day must cover its costs entirely and directly? That is simply doing what railways have usually done - load costs onto start-up (or retention) projects so as to render them unfeasible. Instead, it could be maintained that, by introducing a wider market to rail travel, the result could actuall be a reduction in the overall subsidy required across the year.

 

[313103]

Oh eck i thought this thread was deleted, now it has suddenly returned in a different area and i have at least 10 pages to look through since i posted. Which means i wont be able to post any replys! Oh well we live and learn.

 

[noddingdonkey]

The problem with providing even a limited service on Boxing Day is connections - whether with other trains or with road transport. People will not travel unless they are sure of actually being able to reach their final destination.
One cannot expect minor lines with a normal frequency of one train per hour or less to be operating on Boxing Day (example from my own experience is EMT's Newark-Grimsby service). Many provincial towns have no bus or coach service on Boxing Day.

Can anybody comment on how well used the trains are today (New Year's Day) in places like West Yorkshire which has a normal train service but no buses?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Do they close every route on the network for engineering? Colton Junction (south of York) was closed this Christmas but what about the rest of the ECML? If it was open then there's no reason why services could have run on that route with a bus shuttle between Doncaster - York.

I agree that any such services should be secondary to the engineering work but I don't accept that a) the whole network is shut down and b) that those shut downs couldn't be avoided with the standard measures.

The problem with running buses is that the bus driver can demand up to triple pay for working boxing day which has the effect of driving up the cost and making it a less attractive proposition for the toc and it also makes it a lot less attractive for the passenger which could affect passenger numbers and make it unviable.
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I think you may be correct about the crosscity line in Birmingham.

Bristol/Oxford - London Paddington are two routes I think could justify a hourly service on boxing day if staff etc are available and there is no or limited engineering works.

I think a regular service along the West London line would do ok on boxing day considering the new shopping centre at Sheperds bush

Due to crossrail works over the next couple of years its likely that there will be no possibility for services from paddington on boxing day as there is a few heavy engineering projects which are planned to take place over the christmas breaks such as the new dive under at acton and the new flyover at airport junction to name just two. And i dare say a Bristol/Oxford - Reading service is probably a much less attractive proposition for both toc and passenger as would the rail replacement bus.

Saying that it wouldn't surprise me to see crossrail operate boxing day once its up and running.

 

[12CSVT]

Can anybody comment on how well used the trains are today (New Year's Day) in places like West Yorkshire which has a normal train service but no buses?

Can't comment on Yorkshire, but FCC (Thameslink route) ran a Sunday service on New Years Day. Most of the trains I saw were nearly empty.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh eck i thought this thread was deleted, now it has suddenly returned in a different area and i have at least 10 pages to look through since i posted. Which means i wont be able to post any replys! Oh well we live and learn.

Read the first two pages, everything else is repetition!

 

[A-driver]

The problem with running buses is that the bus driver can demand up to triple pay for working boxing day which has the effect of driving up the cost and making it a less attractive proposition for the toc and it also makes it a lot less attractive for the passenger which could affect passenger numbers and make it unviable.

Not only that but you need far more bus drivers than you do train drivers and you need to find bus drivers willing to work at all from other companies so there would be absolutely no Garuntee you could source anywhere near enough buses.

 

[northwichcat]

I have to provide emergency out of hours support.

Not sure what role you do but the equivalent for drivers or conductors would be to be called not during scheduled hours to operate a service that hasn't been scheduled.
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Dont confuse good with cheap, people use Ryanair because they are very cheap and boy do you get what you pay for!

I heard the cabin crews on Ryanair will torture you for free.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Airports are a completely different argument as they are dealing with transport from other areas of the world with different cultures and calendars which won't all see Xmas as a big festival. Railways are entirely internal and so recognise major uk holidays.

What about the Eurostar? That's in no way internal.

 

[A-driver]

Not sure what role you do but the equivalent for drivers or conductors would be to be called not during scheduled hours to operate a service that hasn't been scheduled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I heard the cabin crews on Ryanair will torture you for free.

Doctors are also paid a lot more than train drivers for the reasons you are arguing. Ok they don't get paid huge amounts from day one but doctors generally make a lot more money.

 

[northwichcat]

Doctors are also paid a lot more than train drivers for the reasons you are arguing. Ok they don't get paid huge amounts from day one but doctors generally make a lot more money.

I was actually arguing yesterday that comparing train crews and doctors is a very poor example.

Clip then quoted one of my posts and argued that he/she provides also out-of-hours support.

Doctors incur 6+ years of university debts while becoming a doctor so of course the end job has to be well paid otherwise no-one would want to be a doctor.

 

[A-driver]

I was actually arguing yesterday that comparing train crews and doctors is a very poor example.

Clip then quoted one of my posts and argued that he/she provides also out-of-hours support.

Doctors incur 6+ years of university debts while becoming a doctor so of course the end job has to be well paid otherwise no-one would want to be a doctor.

I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that they are also paid to be on call, as many rail staff are aswell, especially management grads who are on 24hr call several days a week.

 

[Clip]

Not sure what role you do but the equivalent for drivers or conductors would be to be called not during scheduled hours to operate a service that hasn't been scheduled.

Im in quite a senior position within stations/customer service which means my works phone is never off. At night the text and email function is on silent but the ringer is on and they will only call me if its a very serious incident which would affect passengers first thing in the morning.

On the other hand I work 1 week in 4 on call which means should even a minor incident occur even for the last services then I am rang and informed and then basically make a decision about what to do - this has often led to me having to go out to any of our mid size stations to make sure passengers are kept informed and shown about bus connections or indeed those who need cabs to get home. Then I either go home or hotel it to be in work early enough for the next day and conference call. Then if something happens during the day there have been times when im still at work 12 hours after I have started maybe more should it be needed. Then after the weekend I work I dont finish until the following friday which is 13 days on the bounce before I get 2 rest days then back again monday - should something not happen to ruin my sunday night and I have to go in.

In effect I am on call 24 hours a day/night all the time. Luckily and aside from the big headlines not much happens that regular anyway and work do know that I go to football and have a social life so I have a sticker next to me name in control to inform them that I am not available for any call due to unfit for work at other times and this works well but as I say, 24/7 on call. No overtime paid either.

Thats what I was alluding to.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I've realised hasn't been pointed out is when there are no passenger services, the number of people who think it's OK to trespass increases as has proved to be the case in Cumbria: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12073383

 

[quarella]

Originally Posted by HexDriver View Post
The problem with running buses is that the bus driver can demand up to triple pay for working boxing day which has the effect of driving up the cost and making it a less attractive proposition for the toc and it also makes it a lot less attractive for the passenger which could affect passenger numbers and make it unviable.

Triple Pay!! There may be a few operators with historic arrangements but the coach firm I worked for and others in the area it was flat rate whatever day, or time of day you worked. If there is an enhanced rate of pay then it is likely to be borne by the operator as most TOCs whether in house or using one of the management companies such as First Rail Support will have pre agreed rates for pre planned or emergency Rail Replacement.

Not only that but you need far more bus drivers than you do train drivers and you need to find bus drivers willing to work at all from other companies so there would be absolutely no Garuntee you could source anywhere near enough buses

Whilst you may need more buses than trains depending on loadings the bus driver is all you need. A mechanic and traffic/ops manager may be on call but that will be it in a lot of firms.

 

[SPADTrap]

One thing I've realised hasn't been pointed out is when there are no passenger services, the number of people who think it's OK to trespass increases as has proved to be the case in Cumbria: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-12073383

The locals weren't happy because its a tradition being stopped?! Speechless.

 

[GB]

Send a 2000 tonne ballast train down there, that will put them in their place...or put them in several places :roll:

Idiots!

 

[SPADTrap]

Send a 2000 tonne ballast train down there, that will put them in their place...or put them in several places :roll:

Idiots!

Pretty much what my first thoughts were. Should make an example of every single one of them. See them all in court receiving the maximum possible and then each a mandatory mental health check. I think they need it. If this article accurately represents the truth it just makes me angry.

 

[Goldfish62]

Personally, I would encourage the development of Boxing Day travel but only where the demand really is for a train. There is no need to run an empty Pacer around half of Lincolnshire.

I am sure that we can all come to a point where the commercial demands and supply can meet out some form of service.

Agreed. It seems absurd that in London on Boxing Day you have a full Sunday service on the buses and (ASLEF permitting) the tubes, yet virtually nothing on National Rail.

I think the truth is that the TOCs/DfT are not willing to pay the wage enhancements that would be required to get staff to agree to work.

 

[Greenback]

I think the truth is that the TOCs/DfT are not willing to pay the wage enhancements that would be required to get staff to agree to work.

I would further say that TOC's are probably not convinced that the reveneu generated would cover the costs of running services.

 

[Dave1987]

I would further say that TOC's are probably not convinced that the reveneu generated would cover the costs of running services.

Also as I said previously you then take another day away from NR for major engineering work.

 

[Greenback]

Also as I said previously you then take another day away from NR for major engineering work.

Absolutely. The complications of having to allow for engineering works would be a further cost to the TOC, making the task of covering the direct operating costs even more diffcult.

 

[notadriver]

Triple Pay!! There may be a few operators with historic arrangements but the coach firm I worked for and others in the area it was flat rate whatever day, or time of day you worked. If there is an enhanced rate of pay then it is likely to be borne by the operator as most TOCs whether in house or using one of the management companies such as First Rail Support will have pre agreed rates for pre planned or emergency Rail Replacement.


Whilst you may need more buses than trains depending on loadings the bus driver is all you need. A mechanic and traffic/ops manager may be on call but that will be it in a lot of firms.

I agree. It would be very easy around here to source bus drivers for Boxing Day and pay them a flat rate of say £100 for the day for whatever hours are necessary. Some companies pay less than that. There's a lot of unemployment and drivers looking for work around here. A job at Stagecoach buses paying £9.50 an hour here is like gold dust. God knows how getting a job as a train driver is regarded!

 

[455driver]

I think the truth is that the TOCs/DfT are not willing to pay the wage enhancements that would be required to get staff to agree to work.

Can you prove this with any sort of link to prove your point as to the (alledged) pay enhancements required or this just another case of "staff bashing" because you can and as for "I think" oh please!
Actually dont bother answering!:roll:

How many long distance NX coaches run on Boxing day and what sort of loading do they carry.

I work every other bank holiday for flat money, the only difference is that my booked (weekday) job gets cancelled and I am allocated a (saturday) shift, our Saturday shifts are all over 8hr30 and most well over 9hrs, that is within 2 hours of my original start time which I will find out what I am working the Friday before (if the B/H is the Monday) the shift can also be extended by 2 hours (for which I will be paid at flat rate) as well.
An example-
Late spring holiday last year I should have had a nice 0515on-1211off (6hr56) job, that got cancelled and I was given a 0710on-1540off (8hr40) job, did I moan, no because it is within the rules (wasnt impressed though) but I will be buggered if I am going to come on here just to read personal opinion being touted as fact just so you can stick the knife into traincrew (drivers especially) so either link to some actual/real facts (that rules out wikipedia then) or be quiet!

Isnt it about time this circular thread was locked so we can have a break until the new one starts up in November just to go over the same old cowmanure again?
Is it any wonder a lot of staff are leaving this forum when we are subject to half truths/ lies on a daily basis but when we "take the bait" we are given an infraction but the "person of little knowledge" is free to spout their rubbish with gay abandon without fear.

So can ANYONE link to something that proves that the reason there are no trains on Boxing day is down to the traincrew (in any way) or not?
It isnt a difficult question is it?

 

[Greenback]

Personally, I believe that even if no additional payments were made TOC's would not be rushing to run Boxing Day trains as they will need a lot of convincing that they will not lose money on them.