Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?

[anthony263]

Do they all have it in their contracts, which they all read before signing, that they may be required to work?

Just wondered like.

My contract said I might be required to work on boxing day when I started work with Consortia Group back in July.

 

[dstrat]

When I signed my contract it said there would be NO Xmas Day/Boxing Day working now I actually do have a family life and these are the ONLY 2 days of the year I can guarantee I will have off in advance, for the 1st time in 10 years I won't be working New Years Eve/Day either so this time I can enjoy myself, why people want to destroy every tradition in this country baffles me, Sundays are now a normal day, why because people let it happen there is too much of a 365 day 24/7 attitude in this country just for convenience, well sod convenience how about giving Sundays back to people to have off if they choose and put Xmas back to where it belongs, where people spend time with their families and loved ones instead of glorified shopping trips.

And if people think I am selfish for my views tough, I Love my job and am proud to say I am good at it, however my family will always come first...Period!

Yeah I agree. Xmas and Boxing and perhaps New Years Day as well should carry the right to refuse work and if you want to work; be suitably paid for it, at least double and probably should be triple time.

Or do we simply want to just let ourselves become drones to fulfilling some endless purpose within our jobs? Born...do a job...then die? Is there not more to life than this?

I'd rather have a few days off to reserve my sanity and spirit.

 

[noddingdonkey]

You can make comparisons like saying if the low paid shop workers don't get the day off then why shouldn't there be public transport to get them to work considering the transport employees are paid more but it doesn't meaning driving a train is like working in a shop.

If this country is serious about the idea that people don't need cars and should use public transport to get to work, there has to be some level of public transport (which includes buses) on every day when a reasonable number of people will be working. In this day and age, that includes Boxing Day for a lot of people working in retail. A public transport system which buries its head in the sand and ignores those people is, frankly, unfit for purpose.

 

[nedchester]

If this country is serious about the idea that people don't need cars and should use public transport to get to work, there has to be some level of public transport (which includes buses) on every day when a reasonable number of people will be working. In this day and age, that includes Boxing Day for a lot of people working in retail. A public transport system which buries its head in the sand and ignores those people is, frankly, unfit for purpose.

Totally agree.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The argument about engineering work is one I am rather sceptical about as well as how do the railways on the continent manage to run a 365 day service?

Well it depends what you mean by service.
I travel to Germany 3-4 times a year and have often seen posters on stations giving advance warning that services will be schwebend on certain routes on particular dates. Clearly, they have engineering possessions and bus substitutions, the same as we have here. So if you believe that DB run a train service on every line, every day of the year, you are in fact mistaken.

 

[causton]

Totally agree.

I agree. I did laugh at some people who put themselves down for Boxing Day work then realised they didn't get in - but why would you not have any buses or trains on Boxing Day when it is so important for people these days? The amount of people that were in my local shopping centre with their families checking out the sales leads me to believe that Boxing Day is no longer a day to sit around and do nothing all day. And that's just the retail side - there are lots of other jobs, some vital to human lives, that have to exist on Boxing Day, and these people should have a public transport option available to them!

 

[northernrail2009]

I know there are a few trains that run on boxing day down south but in years to come will we see trains running on the whole network?

Would people use them if they ran and would rail staff work that day?

 

[A-driver]

I know there are a few trains that run on boxing day down south but in years to come will we see trains running on the whole network?

Would people use them if they ran and would rail staff work that day?

Yes, rail staff would work that day as they do today.

 

[kermit]

As someone who has worked quite a few Christmases, as paid employee and as a volunteer, I think there should be a service of some sort every day of the year. Nobody should be forced to work, and there should be good remuneration for those who do. Many folk in Scotland feel more strongly about January 2nd (never mind the 1st) than Boxing or even Christmas Day.
See how all the TV and Radio stations go off air for Xmas / New Year? No - they don't, and I remember thinking when I was a kid how grateful I was to the staff who turned out so I could watch Morecambe and Wise. Public gratitude is a priceless commodity for any service industry. And that's what a passenger railway is.

 

[northwichcat]

Do they all have it in their contracts, which they all read before signing, that they may be required to work?

Just wondered like.

The question is why most TOCs don't have any employees who's contract may require them to work Boxing Day. Like I suggested earlier on new employees could have working the 26th written in to their contracts, which could be optional for existing employees with some form of additional benefit on offer for working on the 26th.

With Northern the unions had an issue with the staff working on the 27th and 28th December in 2010 because they were additional bank holidays to the contract in the union's view and Northern's view was they were replacement bank holidays for Christmas and Boxing Day falling on Saturday and Sunday.

If rail contracts leave huge grey areas like that which unions can dispute they really need tearing up and writing again from scratch.

 

[A-driver]

The question is why most TOCs don't have any employees who's contract may require them to work Boxing Day. Like I suggested earlier on new employees could have working the 26th written in to their contracts, which could be optional for existing employees with some form of additional benefit on offer for working on the 26th.

With Northern the unions had an issue with the staff working on the 27th and 28th December in 2010 because they were additional bank holidays to the contract in the union's view and Northern's view was they were replacement bank holidays for Christmas and Boxing Day falling on Saturday and Sunday.

If rail contracts leave huge grey areas like that which unions can dispute they really need tearing up and writing again from scratch.

Once again (and this is really going round in circles!) staffing isn't the reason no service runs on Boxing Day. It would be easy to run a service in terms of train crew as companies like southern prove-they ask for a handful of volunteers to work a few shuttle services and get far more volunteers than they can find work for. And companies without a Boxing Day service still have a handful if drivers in more often than not to work a night or late afternoon doing preps, marshalling, ferrying, working staff trains etc and again there is more than enough interest in that work with few special financial incentives. Certain depots certainly used to have 3 shifts of drivers in on Xmas day aswell just to fire up the deisel locos and switch them off again after an hour or so if idling to warm them up and prevent leaks and other problems when the came back into service.

So in short, the lack of service has nothing to do with drivers refusing to work.

The issue is that TOCs don't find it worthwhile, network rail don't either and like the time for engineering work. And drivers are not the only staff needed by any means-you would also need control managers, shunters, cleaners, platform staff, station staff etc.

 

[northwichcat]

staffing isn't the reason no service runs on Boxing Day

There have been a lot of posts on here from train crews saying it is because they aren't contracted to work Boxing Day and wouldn't want to.

The issue is that TOCs don't find it worthwhile, network rail don't either and like the time for engineering work. And drivers are not the only staff needed by any means-you would also need control managers, shunters, cleaners, platform staff, station staff etc.

I'm sure TOCs would find running a Boxing Day service to be more beneficial than running a service in the early hours of New Years Day.

 

[A-driver]

There have been a few posts from people stating they are against working Boxing Day but there are also plenty of staff who are happy to work (and as I mentioned this is proved by the volume if volunteers every year). As for contracts, you are correct, its not in most contracts. But neither is Sunday working and they still find more than enough volunteers for Sunday work aswell as Boxing Day.

I think most rail staff like the choice rather than being forced but as I keep saying-if they ran a service there wouldn't be an issue staffing it. I know southern at least used to ask for volunteers around early November and plan the Boxing Day service around the train crew avaliable to garantee services.

As for how beneficial it would be we can only guess on here. I'm pretty sure the TOCs have looked into it and made a decision based on that but there is no real evidence supporting weather new year or Boxing Day is more heavily used.

 

[northwichcat]

As for contracts, you are correct, its not in most contracts. But neither is Sunday working and they still find more than enough volunteers for Sunday work as well as Boxing Day.

Really they shouldn't rely on people volunteering to provide services that are part of the franchise commitment. It might work OK most of the time but then if staff morale drops it can lead to the number of people volunteering to work overtime dropping. In the North West we experienced that with train drivers under FNW.

As for how beneficial it would be we can only guess on here. I'm pretty sure the TOCs have looked into it and made a decision based on that but there is no real evidence supporting weather new year or Boxing Day is more heavily used.

Wait a minute you were saying before that Network Rail influence whether or not they can run trains, so could for instance TPE want to run a Boxing Day service on the main parts of their network but be told they can't as Network Rail won't support it?

 

[A-driver]

Sunday working and volunteering is a seperate discussion which has been had many times and you are quite right-it can cause problems and Sunday working should be in the working week. The union agrees with that to-it would mean more work and more staff needed. But the TOCs don't like that as they prefer less staff to pay, train, pay NI, pay annual leave, pay sickness cover, supply uniforms etc. and so they like to rely on overtime. In fact the unions are all for scrapping all firms of overtime completely and will only allow rest day working if the TOC can prove they are actively recruiting new drivers to fill depots. There are examples of problems on Sundays due to no volunteers but that is very rare and there are usually more than enough volunteers as I said earlier.

As for network rail, it depends in engineering arrangements. If they have planned engineering work then the TOC won't be allowed to run trains over that line. That is partly why Boxing Day has little service-if that happens then the TOC need to provide buses and that means more costs as private coach firms will put prices up, coach drivers will expect to be paid and they are doing all this with a possibility no one will buy a ticket and want to travel.

 

[SPADTrap]

At least you guys know how important you are

 

[Dave1987]

It amuses me that people talk about there being no need for the shops to be open on Boxing Day,but the fact is they are!
There is a demand for travel on Boxing Day and the railway should provide for this.
This could be done by means of asking for volunteers (at the good rate of pay) or by providing day(s) in lieu.
The argument about engineering work is one I am rather sceptical about as well as how do the railways on the continent manage to run a 365 day service? I also think there is more of a demand for later services especially out of major conurbations as the UK moves to a more 24 hour society.
The railways have started to move a little bit in the right direction with better Sunday services but Sundays for many TOC's still rely on volunteers which is something that needs to change.

Wow wow!! For a start Sunday's will never ever become part of the working week on the railway. Sunday services are like they are for reason. The argument about engineering work is perfectly valid, as when are NR supposed to maintain the line? It doesn't just take them 5 mins to set up the possession and 10 mins to replace a bit of worn out track so overnight engineering works are usually for more minor maintenance.

 

[nedchester]

Wow wow!! For a start Sunday's will never ever become part of the working week on the railway. Sunday services are like they are for reason. The argument about engineering work is perfectly valid, as when are NR supposed to maintain the line? It doesn't just take them 5 mins to set up the possession and 10 mins to replace a bit of worn out track so overnight engineering works are usually for more minor maintenance.

I understand that quite a few TOCs DO have Sundays as part of the working week and I think others should follow. I am sure that other occupations that operate on Sundays have Sundays as part of the working week so why are the railways so different? I am not talking about imposing Sundays / Boxing Day but this could be done by proper negotiation.

Going back to the engineering work then how do they manage in Europe where they operate 365 days a year?

 

[A-driver]

Going back to the engineering work then how do they manage in Europe where they operate 365 days a year?

They have a much more modern railway in euroupe-it was largely built post war rather than our Victorian set up. There are less major upgrade programmes as a result and more flexibility for them to do a certain amount of work without causing as much disruption.

Am I right in thinking that there are less major engineering possessions on the at pancras-Ashford line than the rest of the network? May be wrong on that.

 

[attics26]

Wow wow!! For a start Sunday's will never ever become part of the working week on the railway.



I really wish you had told management and unions this quite a while back when Sundays (and bank hols etc) became part of my working week !

 

[EM2]

Wow wow!! For a start Sunday's will never ever become part of the working week on the railway.

Really? I wonder what I've been doing for the last five years then.

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry I phrased that wrongly. I choose to do sundays for the extra money plus I get more than just my normal rate for doing them. BUT you can make yourself unavailable for a sunday if you dont want to do it. What the other post stated was they think Sundays should become more of a normal service and make everyone on railway work even if they dont want to.

 

[ainsworth74]

They have a much more modern railway in euroupe-it was largely built post war rather than our Victorian set up. There are less major upgrade programmes as a result and more flexibility for them to do a certain amount of work without causing as much disruption.

Well that but also they do the same as us and use buses! I think it's clear that should Boxing day services go ahead there would be a need to accommodate engineering work. For instance Colton Junction was closed over Christmas for replacement work (something that you'd struggle mightily at any other time to get done). But I see no reason why on Boxing Day it wouldn't be possible to run shuttle buses between Leeds/Doncaster and York linking into/from trains.

 

[attics26]

Sorry I phrased that wrongly. I choose to do sundays for the extra money plus I get more than just my normal rate for doing them. BUT you can make yourself unavailable for a sunday if you dont want to do it. What the other post stated was they think Sundays should become more of a normal service and make everyone on railway work even if they dont want to.

Yeah I remember the good old days 14 hours pay for 8 rostered hours worked and often worked 2 out of 3 Sundays so that was 28 hours overtime - sadly now just part of the working week with no enhanced pay for Sundays or bank holidays and if rostered xmas or boxing day annual leave reduced by 1 or 2 days.

 

[radamfi]

They have a much more modern railway in euroupe-it was largely built post war rather than our Victorian set up. There are less major upgrade programmes as a result and more flexibility for them to do a certain amount of work without causing as much disruption.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollandsche_IJzeren_Spoorweg-Maatschappij#Statistieken

for example, shows considerable rail usage in the 1840s in the Netherlands. The Dutch actually went through their own Beeching-type network cull long before the UK did. So they have had to go through a continual process of infrastructure improvements as rail transport was prioritised since the 1970s.

So, please, give a better excuse why the UK can't do a 365 day railway, or at least a 7 day one.

 

[EM2]

BUT you can make yourself unavailable for a sunday if you dont want to do it.

Er, no I can't.

 

[A-driver]

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollandsche_IJzeren_Spoorweg-Maatschappij#Statistieken

for example, shows considerable rail usage in the 1840s in the Netherlands. The Dutch actually went through their own Beeching-type network cull long before the UK did. So they have had to go through a continual process of infrastructure improvements as rail transport was prioritised since the 1970s.

So, please, give a better excuse why the UK can't do a 365 day railway, or at least a 7 day one.

I know very little about European rail but how much usage do those lines get compared to the uk? Do they get anywhere near as intensive service every day and are they run over capacity to the same extent as the Uks main rail corridors? Do they carry the same number if passengers every day/ year? And I honestly don't know the answer for sure, just a suspicion.

 

[A-driver]

And the uk does have a 7 day railway.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Er, no I can't.

Luckily I Can

 

[radamfi]

I know very little about European rail but how much usage do those lines get compared to the uk? Do they get anywhere near as intensive service every day and are they run over capacity to the same extent as the Uks main rail corridors? Do they carry the same number if passengers every day/ year? And I honestly don't know the answer for sure, just a suspicion.

Dutch railways in particular are very intensively used. There is no station that has less than an hourly service on any day of the week. Most lines run at least every 30 minutes and many lines in the heavily populated west of the country have fast and slow trains both running every 15 minutes or better.

Clearly when we talk about a '7 day railway' we mean a timetable that is roughly the same 7 days a week. Most of western Europe except the UK and Ireland run a very similar timetable 7 days a week especially for longer distance trains. The first train may be later and local and suburban trains may run less frequently.

Here are all the timetable pdfs for the whole Netherlands:

http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/reisinfo...w-reis/download-dienstregeling-2012-2013.html

There are no separate timetables for Saturday and Sunday.

Belgium is a bit unusual in that they have two separate timetables, one for M-F and one for S-S. But the differences at the weekend are mostly a reduction in local trains, meaning that all lines are open and fast trains run virtually the same 7 days a week.