Boxing day services only in the South?

[muz379]

Always makes me laugh every year just before Xmas when the perpetual moaning about the numerous engineering projects begins . I know its hardly convenient for there to be no trains between Xmas and New year in some places , But unfortunately it will be far less convenient when there is a points failure during Rush hour on a Monday morning in February because engineering works have been neglected .


As for Christmas day and Boxing day . There is an agreement in place that I am not required to work either of these days . If they are rostered days of work I have to save annual leave days or loose pay for these days . Luckily this year I was only rostered X mas day so only needed one lieu day . Today and the next 4 days are all rest days meaning I dont have to return to work until New years eve(what some must think me enjoying my rest days ) . As far as I am concerned this is an agreement that I was party to when I joined the company . And if the company wishes to change this agreement then there will need to be another agreement to replace it . As I dont foresee myself wanting to agree to work on Christmas day or boxing day I wouldn't agree to any change in my T's & C's regarding X mas day and boxing day .


I have worked in jobs that have required me to be in on boxing day before but they where not safety critical so I could go in heavily hungover on the boxing day . Not something I would dream of doing in my current role .

I do appreciate that there are some industries where it is essential that people get to work on boxing day , Christmas day etc etc but they know a whole year in advance that they will have to get to work on those days with no rail and in some places no bus services .

 

[fowler9]

I do think quite correctly I am entitled to the day off. I signed for just that. What's wrong with that? I've yet to see a compelling argument.

I don't think you should have to work and of course you are not contractually obliged to do so. I wish someone would work it though.

 

[plymothian]

May be it would be easier just to abolish Christmas.
That way no one would ever get the time off and we can all go on as normal.

 

[bicbasher]

The demand for public transport, especially in London has increased on Boxing Day. With no London Overground services from Forest Hill until Monday (RRB operate from tomorrow), the local buses into Zone 1 are packed to the rafters full of shoppers.

 

[fowler9]

As others have pointed out, if their contract or roster says they have the time then yes they are entitled to it. Not really that difficult to understand is it?

I'm interested to know what your profession is though.

I know you aren't contractually obliged to work but it would be nice if it was possible that a service could be provided. I don't begrudge you a day off. I know it is complicated. We provide a lot of the the support services to the armed forces in the UK.

 

[6Gman]

At least it has taken until Boxing Day for the annual 'why are there no trains over Christmas' thread!

Indeed - we have usually had six different threads by mid-December!

To offer my twopennorth:-

1. It's a service industry so staff should accept that they may need to work at odd times [and, yes, I do know the effect on family life - my dad was a driver];
2. Those commenting on twitter and in the press that this is some terrible new development are idiots. Boxing Day has been trainless for most of the past 40 years;
3. Personally I think a basic service should normally be provided on Boxing Day on key routes where the cost/benefit ratio makes sense :-

Would I man umpteen boxes and crossings to let people travel from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Grimsby? No. Would I man a few powerboxes to let people travel from Euston to Glasgow? Yes I would.

 

[SPADTrap]

I don't think you should have to work and of course you are not contractually obliged to do so. I wish someone would work it though.

I get you. It would be interesting to see a company 'test' if they could put a service together for Boxing day. I'm not so sure the results would be that good though. What trains do run would probably be too crowded demonstrating that if it is there they will come but I'm not convinced it is essential on that day (IMO). Did Chiltern do something this year?

 

[Suraggu]

Post deleted

 

[SPADTrap]

1. It's a service industry so staff should accept that they may need to work at odd times [and, yes, I do know the effect on family life - my dad was a driver];

Those who work on the railways signed a contract and certainly do accept that and guess what they do work odd times; this isn't one of them. I fail to see why that is so hard to understand. It isn't part of the equation of 'odd times'.

Oh and there's more to rail travel than 'a few power boxes!' even if signalers tell you otherwise :P

Maybe we should means test travel on Boxing day (us Brits love a good means test!?) you can only travel if its deemed essential and not for frivolous spending in the sales! Could be a whole new grade for staff on the gateline! That said I did find myself curiously looking at what is actually in the sales considering payday was Christmas eve so I can understand the appeal!

 

[muz379]

I get you. It would be interesting to see a company 'test' if they could put a service together for Boxing day. I'm not so sure the results would be that good though. What trains do run would probably be too crowded demonstrating that if its there they will come but I'm not convinced it is essential on that day. Did Chiltern do something this year?

The problem is in the modern privatized railway there are too many what ifs and situations that have to be prepared for that its not just a case of getting a few drivers and guards to sign on the dotted line to agree to work for additional pay .

You then have to have on call managers in case there is an operational incident .

You have to have control staff working

You have to have on call fitters as well as on call Pway staff and Moms in case of an incident .

You have to have a contingency plan , it then also means having the possibility of having to use RRB in the case of an incident which means having bus drivers that are prepared to come to work on boxing day .

Christmas day engineering projects would also have to be done to a very tight timescale unless Network rail want to accrue a load of delay minutes for overrunning engineering . When it comes to stuff like bridge replacements sometimes that added leway is actually an important consideration .

For TOCS the additional cost just is not worth the hassle that it would bring with it in the event of an incident .

We will go from having threads about No service on boxing day , to Poor service on boxing day because a train broke down and the nearest fitter was 100 miles away enjoying a turkey curry with his leftovers and then got stuck in a snow drift on his way to resolve the issue .

 

[SPADTrap]

The problem is in the modern privatized railway there are too many what ifs and situations that have to be prepared for that its not just a case of getting a few drivers and guards to sign on the dotted line to agree to work for additional pay .

You then have to have on call managers in case there is an operational incident .

You have to have control staff working

You have to have on call fitters as well as on call Pway staff and Moms in case of an incident .

You have to have a contingency plan , it then also means having the possibility of having to use RRB in the case of an incident which means having bus drivers that are prepared to come to work on boxing day .

Christmas day engineering projects would also have to be done to a very tight timescale unless Network rail want to accrue a load of delay minutes for overrunning engineering . When it comes to stuff like bridge replacements sometimes that added leway is actually an important consideration .

For TOCS the additional cost just is not worth the hassle that it would bring with it in the event of an incident .

We will go from having threads about No service on boxing day , to Poor service on boxing day because a train broke down and the nearest fitter was 100 miles away enjoying a turkey curry with his leftovers and then got stuck in a snow drift on his way to resolve the issue .

Exactly what I think would be the outcome of such a test and why it wouldn't be possible, always willing to be proven wrong though as I am open minded.

Can't think of anyone at my depot that would volunteer however, including myself.

 

[TheWalrus]

Agreed!! Surely you can stop travelling for two days??

Not unless your after 15% off in the sales that start 9am boxing day. Not all of us have cars!!!

I have a car but don't go to Boxing Day sales! Why can't people wait until the 27th?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed!! Surely you can stop travelling for two days??

Good job emergency services dont think that way,my opinion

Obviously not every sector can have Christmas Day and Boxing Day off. But why do we need to run trains and buses essentially for people to go to sales? Why can't we have two days rest per year for as many people as possible?

 

[455driver]

You are of course not contractually obliged to work those days.

Correct!

I'm guessing you don't have to actually save up 2 days out of 25, you probably like us get extra days leave added on in your contract to make up for the fact you are often expected to work bank holidays? Apologies if I am wrong.

Its 2 out of our 28 actually!
The rest is right although we only get a few extra days to compensate for all the bank holidays we are expected to work (at flat rate).

 

[SPADTrap]

My daughter, on a zero hours contract in retail that she was lucky to get, managed to swap her Boxing day shift so that she could come home on Christmas Eve and have Christmas Day with us. Sadly, the condition was that she started at 8am tomorrow, so she had to travel back today. We are "lucky" that we can easily drive her there.
I do appreciate that Christmas is a family time, but, increasingly, as families become more distributed, that means more requirement to travel, later on Christmas Eve, and on Boxing Day. Society has changed a lot in the last thirty years, and, perhaps sadly, service industries like the railways must change in tune.

So you can have your family time but we can't?

I do see your point though.

 

[muz379]

Good job emergency services dont think that way,my opinion

The thing is though even I understand that If I needed an emergency service or medical treatment over the christmas period the response time and level of response is going to be far reduced from what it normally is .

 

[fowler9]

I think part of the problem is everyone wants things done cheaper. Where as once what was once sorted out by a chap on call at every military bass in the UK money has been saved by having me and a few others on call at a central location. We can then contact everyone we need to. No one wants to pay for us to get to work though. The same is true for many businesses. I fully respect the right for the staff of the railways to have some downtime, they do a great job for me and others all year round at unsociable times, not to mention the fact that they are not contractually obliged to work as others have mentioned.

Correct!


Its 2 out of our 28 actually!
The rest is right although we only get a few extra days to compensate for all the bank holidays we are expected to work (at flat rate).

I get enhanced leave and work bank holidays at a flat rate to.

 

[455driver]

I don't think you should have to work and of course you are not contractually obliged to do so. I wish someone would work it though.

Does he have a chip on his shoulder as well?
Earlier you stated that anyone who doesnt work on these 2 days has a chip on their shoulder!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed - we have usually had six different threads by mid-December!

To offer my twopennorth:-

1. It's a service industry so staff should accept that they may need to work at odd times [and, yes, I do know the effect on family life - my dad was a driver];
2. Those commenting on twitter and in the press that this is some terrible new development are idiots. Boxing Day has been trainless for most of the past 40 years;
3. Personally I think a basic service should normally be provided on Boxing Day on key routes where the cost/benefit ratio makes sense :-

Would I man umpteen boxes and crossings to let people travel from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Grimsby? No. Would I man a few powerboxes to let people travel from Euston to Glasgow? Yes I would.

So what happens when you dont get enough volunteers to run your intended service?

 

[BestWestern]

Look folks I know I didn't make this very clear but it is something that interests me. I volunteered to work Christmas because I have no kids and I know that my rather grown up family wouldn't miss me for 5 hours in the morning. I can even walk to work although being able to get to work on a bus would be a bonus. There are however people in my office living further away who were pretty much forced to work it. Like myself they are pretty much relied upon by many people. Yes when they took the job they knew what it may involve but when you are on the dole they kind of frown upon it if you turn down a job. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but some people do. We don't even live in a very religious country. I was in Chile for Christmas 3 years ago which is far more Christian than here and they had public transport on Christmas Day. Anyone who thinks I have a chip on my shoulder has a far bigger one on theirs because they think they are entitled to a day off.

I certainly don't have any Crimb chips on this shoulder; why would I, I get the day off?

 

[455driver]

The thing is though even I understand that If I needed an emergency service or medical treatment over the christmas period the response time and level of response is going to be far reduced from what it normally is .

I tried to make an appointment at my doctors practice but got put through to NHS direct, I assume that all the staff at the practice were at home with their families/in town/on tw@ter or forums bitching about no buses or trains running!
While some emergency staff are expected to work it wont be anywhere near the normal amount that would be working on an ordinary Wednesday or Thursday!

but you certainly meet all the criteria of having a chip on you shoulder.

I am very well balanced thank you, I have a chip on each shoulder!
It was the way you posted that anyone not working has a chip on their shoulder (even though we are not contracted to work) but you, who were insisting that because you had to work we should too, didnt have a chip on your shoulder!

I get enhanced leave and work bank holidays at a flat rate to.

How many days leave (in total) do you get a year?

 

[muz379]

I tried to make an appointment at my doctors practice but got put through to NHS direct, I assume that all the staff at the practice were at home with their families/in town/on tw@ter or forums bitching about no buses or trains running!
While some emergency staff are expected to work it wont be anywhere near the normal amount that would be working on an ordinary Wednesday or Thursday!

indeed and some years ago when I gave serious consideration to joining the Police I knew it would have at some point in my career entailed me working Christmas day and boxing day

Contrast that to when I decided to become a guard and I was told I wouldn't have to work Christmas day or boxing day

 

[fowler9]

Does he have a chip on his shoulder as well?
Earlier you stated that anyone who doesnt work on these 2 days has a chip on their shoulder!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what happens when you dont get enough volunteers to run your intended service?

If I stated that then I apologise, I don't think I did, if I did then I apologise again, it came out wrong. Lets get back on the subject as I fear I may have diverted away from it. I don't think you or any of your colleagues or indeed my friends should be forced to work Christmas, you aren't contracted to do so and I would be the first to say people shouldn't have to change the contracts they have signed. I do think it would be useful if some kind of service was provided though as more and more people are having to work the likes of Christmas to provide services to people who don't have to, and indeed to some that do.

 

[455driver]

I have quoted your post #43 in its entirety for you, do you have a problem with your memory that you cant remember what you posted 2 hours ago?

Look folks I know I didn't make this very clear but it is something that interests me. I volunteered to work Christmas because I have no kids and I know that my rather grown up family wouldn't miss me for 5 hours in the morning. I can even walk to work although being able to get to work on a bus would be a bonus. There are however people in my office living further away who were pretty much forced to work it. Like myself they are pretty much relied upon by many people. Yes when they took the job they knew what it may involve but when you are on the dole they kind of frown upon it if you turn down a job. I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but some people do. We don't even live in a very religious country. I was in Chile for Christmas 3 years ago which is far more Christian than here and they had public transport on Christmas Day. Anyone who thinks I have a chip on my shoulder has a far bigger one on theirs because they think they are entitled to a day off.

I have highlighted the important stuff for you!

 

[Hadders]

I've been working in London today, although I rather I didn't have to!

I had to drive in due to there being no trains, the journey into the centre was ok as I was early and arrived around 8.30am.

Different thing this evening though. I had to visit a store in Streatham and it was an absolute nightmare, taking over two hours to get back to Stevenage.

My personal view is that we should have a proper break at Christmas and I wish we shut down properly for two days.

We need to be careful what we wish for. Sundays were a different day 20 years ago, now thanks to Sunday trading it's like a normal working day. Bank Holidays are the same. If we carry on like this there won't even be a shut down of any sort even on Christmas Day.

Very sad.

 

[fowler9]

I tried to make an appointment at my doctors practice but got put through to NHS direct, I assume that all the staff at the practice were at home with their families/in town/on tw@ter or forums bitching about no buses or trains running!
While some emergency staff are expected to work it wont be anywhere near the normal amount that would be working on an ordinary Wednesday or Thursday!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I realise that and have edited the post to make that clearer!

I am very balanced, I have a chip on each shoulder!
It was the way you posted that anyone not working has a chip on their shoulder (even though we are not contracted to work) but you, who were insisting that because you had to work we should too, didnt have a chip on your shoulder!

How many days leave (in total) do you get a year?

Mate honestly I wasn't insisting you should have to work or that anyone who wanted Chrimbo off had a chip on their shoulder, at least I hope it didn't come across that way although it obviously did. I really just wanted to debate certain issues that obviously exist. To be fair I get 33 days leave as opposed to your 28. I am however expected to be available 24/7, 365 days a year averaging a 40 hour week. I can be breathalised in work and will be sacked if there is anything in my system. I am pretty confident I earn less than you as well unless your TOC pay a lot less than my mates in Northern get.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have quoted your post #43 in its entirety for you, do you have a problem with your memory that you cant remember what you posted 2 hours ago?
I have highlighted the important stuff for you!

Cheers mate.

 

[455driver]

Mate honestly I wasn't insisting you should have to work or that anyone who wanted Chrimbo off had a chip on their shoulder, at least I hope it didn't come across that way although it obviously did. I really just wanted to debate certain issues that obviously exist. To be fair I get 33 days leave as opposed to your 28. I am however expected to be available 24/7, 365 days a year averaging a 40 hour week. I can be breathalised in work and will be sacked if there is anything in my system. I am pretty confident I earn less than you as well unless your TOC pay a lot less than my mates in Northern get.

Read my quote above or your original post #43 at 1711 today!
I was agreeing with most of this post until you got the dig in about our pay! :roll:
We can be breathalysed (and drug tested) at any time as well, we can fail the railway (alcohol) test but still drive our cars home legally!
The unions wont back us and we will be sacked straight away, subject to due process being followed.
If we fail that one (even by one point as has happened) then we dont have a leg to stand on, and rightly so!

 

[fowler9]

I have quoted your post #43 in its entirety for you, do you have a problem with your memory that you cant remember what you posted 2 hours ago?
I have highlighted the important stuff for you!
Oh I also stand by my tw@ comment, especially as you have backtracking faster than the Swiss would do if they were invaded!

You missed out the important stuff about people taking jobs because they have to by the way.

 

[SPADTrap]

I've been working in London today, although I rather I didn't have to!

I had to drive in due to there being no trains, the journey into the centre was ok as I was early and arrived around 8.30am.

Different thing this evening though. I had to visit a store in Streatham and it was an absolute nightmare, taking over two hours to get back to Stevenage.

My personal view is that we should have a proper break at Christmas and I wish we shut down properly for two days.

We need to be careful what we wish for. Sundays were a different day 20 years ago, now thanks to Sunday trading it's like a normal working day. Bank Holidays are the same. If we carry on like this there won't even be a shut down of any sort even on Christmas Day.

Very sad.

Leave it to us to ensure this won't happen on the railways! Not for the sake of retail!

 

[fowler9]

Read my quote above or your original post #43 at 1711 today!
I was agreeing with most of this post until you got the dig in about our pay! :roll:
We can be breathalysed (and drug tested) at any time as well, we can fail the railway (alcohol) test but still drive our cars home legally!

Mate I wasn't having a dig about your pay, honestly. I was just saying I get more leave, you get more pay. Honestly you really have got a chip on your shoulder By the way I can drive a car legally and fail the work test.

You are looking for stuff to be offended by. I should know, I am an expert. Ha ha.

 

[ExRes]

Same old chestnut, why should railway staff work on Christmas/Boxing Days if their contracts don't require them to, if the TOCs want to run a service then they would have to do a deal with the staff that would make it worthwhile to give up the only 2 guaranteed days off each year. A question for those that want to go to the sales etc, what about railway staff that want a couple of days off to be with their families and go to the sales as well, or do railway staff not have the same rights as others who, for instance, may well have anything up to a fortnight off over Christmas/New Year

Those that do work on these particular days are either contracted to or have agreed to, that's up to them, there is no reason whatsoever that railway staff should have to do the same if they don't want to

 

[MikeWh]

You have to have on call fitters as well as on call Pway staff and Moms in case of an incident .

You have to have a contingency plan , it then also means having the possibility of having to use RRB in the case of an incident which means having bus drivers that are prepared to come to work on boxing day .

Well Network Rail certainly needed the on call staff today to sort out electrical supply problems in the Streatham Common area. I'm not convinced Southern called in RRBs, but the trains could all bypass the issue running via Crystal Palace. Thankfully they did arrange a shuttle between East Croydon and Selhurst so the majority of the footie fans could still get to and from the game.