Boris Johnson is a liability.

[Bromley boy]

I often wonder what Boris and his bexiteers will say to those people particularly the car industry who are likely to be on the dole if something regarding customs unions and the Europeans accepting british standards as equivalent to eu and other similar standards issues.
K

We’d say:

1. There are other jobs out there;
2. If there aren’t, maybe you should have worked harder at school?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Your postings are generally good value and I agree with some of what you say.

But, for the sake of your own credibility, you should go on record as acknowledging you were completely wrong here.

I'm not sure that I have anything to apologise for tbh.... as I stated my understanding of the situation was gleaned from some neighbours who were born and raised in Eire {btw to those who object to me using the Gaelic name for Ireland... tough... that's how my neighbours always referred to it, so that is how I am used to referring to it... it isn't some kind of one upmanship on my part!} they described themselves as loyalist... and they also believed in a united Eire... and as I also pointed out... they definitely looking back had pro IRA sympathies... I can only go by MY personal experiences.... and tbh citing wikipedia as a primary source really is like quoting "the man down the pub"

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

what I don't get is the vitriol from remainers... they cite report after report made by pro-EU bodies, organisations and individuals... all of which say that if we stay on the path we have chosen it will be "woe, woe and thrice woe"

May I politely request that, before swallowing all these reports as FACT that any remainer considers a couple of points.

1. No-one can see into the future... ANY report from either side is only theory and conjecture... and will be biased by the personal opinions of whoever commissions/ writes the report

2. The EU has a track record of not accepting votes when the decision voted is not the one they want {think Greek, Italian and Spanish General Elections, Irish, and was it Netherland referendum decisions} the people have then been ordered to go back and vote again... in the meantime the EU then commissions all they can muster to throw the fear of G-d into the people so that they vote the way the EU wants...

Can you really not see this is what is happening here during the Brexit negotiations?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not sure that I have anything to apologise for tbh.... as I stated my understanding of the situation was gleaned from some neighbours who were born and raised in Eire {btw to those who object to me using the Gaelic name for Ireland... tough... that's how my neighbours always referred to it, so that is how I am used to referring to it... it isn't some kind of one upmanship on my part!} they described themselves as loyalist... and they also believed in a united Eire... and as I also pointed out... they definitely looking back had pro IRA sympathies... I can only go by MY personal experiences.... and tbh citing wikipedia as a primary source really is like quoting "the man down the pub"

I’m not asking for you to apologise. Just an acknowledgement that loyalists aren’t the same as republicans - you appear to have confused the two!

If your neighbours referred to themselves as loyalists, yet favoured a united Ireland, they were wrong. And you were also fundamentally wrong to suggest that loyalists are in favour of a united Ireland.

Jesus christ - take it from a Brit whose family tree includes someone who was imprisoned for IRA activities (and I admire him).

Loyalists do not = people who want a united Ireland.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I’m not asking for you to apologise. Just an acknowledgement that loyalists aren’t the same as republicans - you appear to have confused the two!

If your neighbours referred to themselves as loyalists, yet favoured a united Ireland, they were wrong. And you were also fundamentally wrong to suggest that loyalists are in favour of a united Ireland.

Jesus f**kng christ - take it from a Brit whose family tree includes someone who was imprisoned for IRA activities (and I admire him).

Loyalists do not = people who want a united Ireland.

ok in that case I will recognise that I was misinformed... perhaps it was a ruse for IRA sympathisers living in the UK to describe themselves as that... after all... in everyday parlance... "I support x, y and z cause" so it makes sense to assume that they are loyal to the cause? a classic case maybe of "thick paddy" using the English language to confuse an Englishman?

 

[Bromley boy]

Just as you REALLY know your suggestion wouldn't solve things either!

What, ceding Northern Ireland back to ROI?

It would solve it at a stroke.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

What, ceding Northern Ireland back to ROI?

It would solve it at a stroke.

hmm... I wonder what the DUP would say to a referendum worded such-
Do you:

a) wish to cede from the UK, unite with the Republic of Ireland and remain in the EU

or

b) wish to remain part of the UK, have a hard border with the Republic of Ireland and cede from the EU

of course that won't happen for fear of wee Jimmy Krankie {sorry Ms Sturgeon} crying "foul"

 

[Bromley boy]

ok in that case I will recognise that I was misinformed... perhaps it was a ruse for IRA sympathisers living in the UK to describe themselves as that... after all... in everyday parlance... "I support x, y and z cause" so it makes sense to assume that they are loyal to the cause? a classic case maybe of "thick paddy" using the English language to confuse an Englishman?

Thanks for the acknowledgement. You were fundamentally wrong there.

“IRA sympathisers”... good for them! I’m one myself.

I’m not sure where you’re going with the the “thick paddy” thing, but you should stop now. Seriously not cool. I guess that includes my stupid, Irish ancestors?!

You are starting to come across as properly thick and ignorant.

hmm... I wonder what the DUP would say to a referendum worded such-
Do you:

a) wish to cede from the UK, unite with the Republic of Ireland and remain in the EU



b) wish to remain part of the UK, have a hard border with the Republic of Ireland and cede from the EU

of course that won't happen for fear of wee Jimmy Krankie {sorry Ms Sturgeon} crying "foul"

I wish the DUP would foxtrot Oscar.

 

[mmh]

(EDIT: this was in reply to a (ridiculous) suggestion that you could have a Northern Ireland referendum to stay in the UK or join the republic)

I think the RoI would want more than a little bit of a say in that rather the none it allows!

NI/RoI is still far more difficult than a lot of people seem to think, which is why I think the EU needs to keep its nose out of it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Thanks for the acknowledgement. You were fundamentally wrong there.

“IRA sympathisers”... good for them! I’m one myself.

I’m not sure where you’re going with the the “thick paddy” thing, but you should stop now. Seriously not cool. I guess that includes my stupid, Irish ancestors?!

You are starting to come across as properly thick and ignorant.

I'm sorry you're offended by the remark... no offence was meant... I deliberately put the phrase in quotation marks to signify that they were playing up to the stereotype

I wish the DUP would foxtrot Oscar.

Any reasonably rational and peace loving person would!

 

[bnm]

they were playing up to the stereotype

You were the one who was confused and lacked understanding of what a loyalist is. On the face of it I'd say it wasn't the neighbours who were, or were pretending to be, thick. Other side of the fence...

And stereotype or not, quote marks or not, it's still an ethnic slur.

I, as an Irish diaspora descendent, agree with Bromley Boy. Not cool.

I'll go on record and say I'd like to see a united Ireland too. That's for the Northern Irish to decide though. And not with guns and bombs. They've tried that method and it didn't work.

 

[Bromley boy]

Delete please.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You were the one who was confused and lacked understanding of what a loyalist is. On the face of it I'd say it wasn't the neighbours who were, or were pretending to be, thick. Other side of the fence...

And stereotype or not, quote marks or not, it's still an ethnic slur.

Good grief... as I have already explained... as if my original post wasn't clear enough... I suspect with what @Bromley boy said, my neighbours were playing up to the image of the "thick paddy" and using the English language to confuse the English... in fact if you re-read the post again without your OWN preconceptions and connotations you will see that I was paying them a compliment and illustrating that they had a high degree of intelligence....

We were only aware of their sympathies because we were their best friends... certainly no-one else ever said anything about them...

oh and just to put it on record... I agree that Eire should be a united and free country, devoid of British interference... seeing as though the Unionist Protestants of NI were originally installed there by Henry VIII {IIRC} then when Eire was granted it's freedom then those in NI that wanted to stay within the UK should have been offered resettlement in England, Scotland and Wales...

I sympathise with those that would like to see their country re-united, but could never condone the methods used from the late 60's... then again the British government were totally incompetent and inept at dealing with the Troubles and only served to make matters worse...

 

[Bromley boy]

Good grief... as I have already explained... as if my original post wasn't clear enough... I suspect with what @Bromley boy said, my neighbours were playing up to the image of the "thick paddy" and using the English language to confuse the English... in fact if you re-read the post again without your OWN preconceptions and connotations you will see that I was paying them a compliment and illustrating that they had a high degree of intelligence....

We were only aware of their sympathies because we were their best friends... certainly no-one else ever said anything about them...

oh and just to put it on record... I agree that Eire should be a united and free country, devoid of British interference... seeing as though the Unionist Protestants of NI were originally installed there by Henry VIII {IIRC} then when Eire was granted it's freedom then those in NI that wanted to stay within the UK should have been offered resettlement in England, Scotland and Wales...

I sympathise with those that would like to see their country re-united, but could never condone the methods used from the late 60's... then again the British government were totally incompetent and inept at dealing with the Troubles and only served to make matters worse...

Can the thick Irish paddy oiks not speak English then?

You are digging yourself a deep hole. You should give it up...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Can the thick Irish paddy oiks not speak English then?

You are digging yourself a deep hole. You should give it up...

what??? look... I have a great respect for you @Bromley boy and I usually enjoy debating with you but for G-d's sake please stop twisting my words... where the hell did I insinuate that a) I consider the Irish to be "oiks" or b) that I consider them thick or c) that they cannot speak English... what I DID say was that they were using the English language to confuse the English... ie they demonstrated a better grasp of the nuances and vagueries of the English language than the English...

 

[EM2]

So, dear remainers {and the EU for that matter} do not lower yourselves to trying to make anyone who dares to disagree with you look stupid... in the end you just make yourselves look like bullies...

No-one tried to make you look stupid. They simply pointed out where you were wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good grief... as I have already explained... as if my original post wasn't clear enough... I suspect with what @Bromley boy said, my neighbours were playing up to the image of the "thick paddy" and using the English language to confuse the English... in fact if you re-read the post again without your OWN preconceptions and connotations you will see that I was paying them a compliment and illustrating that they had a high degree of intelligence....

No Irish Republican would ever describe themselves as “loyalist” in any context. Doing so wouldn’t mask their political convictions but rather invite further scrutiny. Loyalism is, and has been for a century or more, a well known term to describe “take action” Unionists; the term appears in all areas of the British press throughout the whole of the C20th.

We were only aware of their sympathies because we were their best friends... certainly no-one else ever said anything about them...

Sounds like a tall tale to me. You should really take advice to stop digging when offered.

oh and just to put it on record... I agree that Eire should be a united and free country, devoid of British interference... seeing as though the Unionist Protestants of NI were originally installed there by Henry VIII {IIRC}

No such thing as Unionism during the reign of Henry VIII; the reason why should be hopefully obvious. Not everyone in the early plantations was Protestant; quite a few of the Old English there were Catholic. The plantations were not the first British “interference” in Ireland.

then when Eire was granted it's freedom then those in NI that wanted to stay within the UK should have been offered resettlement in England, Scotland and Wales...

You fundamentally misunderstand what being an Ulster Protestant is about. There is a strong attachment to the land and its history intertwined with the Crown. You can’t just offer to resettle them elsewhere in the UK (they had the option anyway, being British!) and hope that would be acceptable. It wouldn’t have been then and wouldn’t now.

“Eire” has never been “granted” freedom. It wasn’t a gift from the British, but rather was the result of a bilateral treaty after a ceasefire and stalemate in the Irish War of Independence.

I sympathise with those that would like to see their country re-united, but could never condone the methods used from the late 60's... then again the British government were totally incompetent and inept at dealing with the Troubles and only served to make matters worse...

Many of the methods used in the most recent iteration of the Troubles are exactly the same ones which forced the British to grant independence to the Free State.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

No Irish Republican would ever describe themselves as “loyalist” in any context. Doing so wouldn’t mask their political convictions but rather invite further scrutiny. Loyalism is, and has been for a century or more, a well known term to describe “take action” Unionists; the term appears in all areas of the British press throughout the whole of the C20th.



Sounds like a tall tale to me. You should really take advice to stop digging when offered.



No such thing as Unionism during the reign of Henry VIII; the reason why should be hopefully obvious. Not everyone in the early plantations was Protestant; quite a few of the Old English there were Catholic. The plantations were not the first British “interference” in Ireland.



You fundamentally misunderstand what being an Ulster Protestant is about. There is a strong attachment to the land and its history intertwined with the Crown. You can’t just offer to resettle them elsewhere in the UK (they had the option anyway, being British!) and hope that would be acceptable. It wouldn’t have been then and wouldn’t now.

“Eire” has never been “granted” freedom. It wasn’t a gift from the British, but rather was the result of a bilateral treaty after a ceasefire and stalemate in the Irish War of Independence.



Many of the methods used in the most recent iteration of the Troubles are exactly the same ones which forced the British to grant independence to the Free State.

Good grief you really are desperate to keep an argument rumbling aren't you.... it's now getting totally beyond belief... the ONLY reason why I ever mentioned Eire ceding from the UK was to prove a point that the EU is wrong when saying you can't have free movement between a union and an ex-member of that union.

To say that our family's closest friends and neighbours for over 30 yrs were just spinning us a "tall tale" is insulting to our neighbours, us, and our close friendship. To say that I "fundamentally misunderstand" the situation in NI is insulting also...as to the history of Protestantism in NI and the plantations.... it was a policy that was started by Henry VIII and subsequently followed by future British rulers... notably Cromwell... planting Protestants in NI was seen as a way of quelling the rebellious Catholics... or are you now telling me that every history teacher I've had and every Tudor history book I've read have been totally and utterly wrong and only you are right?

note to all forum members:

I have now made my apologies for any mistakes I have made in my understanding, and for any offence caused by them... it is now getting to the point where it is quite clear that some on here wish to continue to beat me with a large stick... any further comments or attacks over what I have written will be considered as bullying by me and I will report any such posts as such to the moderators

 

[fowler9]

Teflon Lettuce I apologise sincerely that I inferred you were stupid yesterday. I was out of line and would hate you to think I was bullying you. To me this is just a discussion about one subject, there are probably any number of things we all completely agree on. All the best to you. Anyway, this has kind of drifted away from Boris Johnson, ha ha.

 

[Bromley boy]

what??? look... I have a great respect for you @Bromley boy and I usually enjoy debating with you but for G-d's sake please stop twisting my words... where the hell did I insinuate that a) I consider the Irish to be "oiks" or b) that I consider them thick or c) that they cannot speak English... what I DID say was that they were using the English language to confuse the English... ie they demonstrated a better grasp of the nuances and vagueries of the English language than the English...

Ok, apologies, I misinterpreted what you said and overreacted.

This is clearly very sensitive subject for many of us.

 

[AlterEgo]

Good grief you really are desperate to keep an argument rumbling aren't you.... it's now getting totally beyond belief... the ONLY reason why I ever mentioned Eire ceding from the UK was to prove a point that the EU is wrong when saying you can't have free movement between a union and an ex-member of that union.

The EU have not said that about “a union” but rather about *their union*.

As I have pointed out, you don’t seem to grasp the difference between Ireland’s independence as a sovereign country from another sovereign county, and the withdrawal of the UK from something which isn’t a sovereign entity but instead operates by consensus. Many people have pointed out that it’s movement of goods which causes friction with the EU at the moment and there was no free movement of goods between the two Irelands after the partition. You tried to claim people who told you this were wrong, and then a poster showed up to evidence exactly that - you were wrong.

To say that I "fundamentally misunderstand" the situation in NI is insulting

Then don’t come out with nonsense like claiming the IRA are a loyalist organisation, and that the BBC said so, and that it was the other people who corrected you were wrong.

Understanding loyalist/unionist and republican/nationalist is Level 1 of understanding Northern Ireland.

...as to the history of Protestantism in NI and the plantations.... it was a policy that was started by Henry VIII and subsequently followed by future British rulers... notably Cromwell... planting Protestants in NI was seen as a way of quelling the rebellious Catholics...

Only some of the plantations were intended to do this, as policy wasn’t consistent and depended on the whims of the monarch or Cromwell. Mostly, the long term overarching aim was to absorb the Irish through financial hegemony and landlordism and to enable the British ruling classes to make more money from confiscated land. Some plantations were granted solely on a punitive basis after specific rebellions. There was no serious rebellion in Ireland to quell when the policies began under Henry, although sources disagree as to how much he was influenced by the Silken Thomas Rebellion (which was done when Henry was still a Catholic).

or are you now telling me that every history teacher I've had and every Tudor history book I've read have been totally and utterly wrong and only you are right?

History is not a science of exact fact, for one, and I struggle to accept that you were taught the plantation policy any more than on one occasion if you are from England. I was taught it zero times at school. In fact, I’m confused as to why you would reply explaining to me what the plantations were.

any further comments or attacks over what I have written will be considered as bullying by me and I will report any such posts as such to the moderators

Is this your way of saying again you’re done with the thread?

 

[jon0844]

oh? MP's spend most of their time in Westminster do they? strange how the benches are always so empty in the chamber most of the time!

Have you seen the Houses of Parliament (I suggest you one day try and do a visit - perhaps your MP organises trips from time to time)? There are many rooms where MPs work - often very long hours.

Whatever their salary, many are extremely busy. A lot of people don't bother to 'use' their MP for local issues, especially if they didn't vote for them, but MPs can and do help people regardless. Even if letters are written and just signed by the MP, it doesn't mean they don't do any work or are at home doing nothing.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Is this your way of saying again you’re done with the thread?

Nope... it is my way of saying that I have made my apologies for any misunderstanding I have, or any offence caused, and that anyone like yourself who wishes to continually argue the point when I have already said that I have said all that I have to say will be considered by me to be bullying... the fact that you STILL choose to continue to argue the same point over and over again shows to everyone what a small minded bully you really are... if you wish to reply to this post then rest assured you will be reported for bullying.

once again I have said all that I wish to say on the matter this is a thread about Boris Johnson... please get back on topic or leave the thread... in any case do NOT message me or quote me any further on the subject of Eire/NI

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Have you seen the Houses of Parliament (I suggest you one day try and do a visit - perhaps your MP organises trips from time to time)? There are many rooms where MPs work - often very long hours.

Whatever their salary, many are extremely busy. A lot of people don't bother to 'use' their MP for local issues, especially if they didn't vote for them, but MPs can and do help people regardless. Even if letters are written and just signed by the MP, it doesn't mean they don't do any work or are at home doing nothing.

are these the same "hard working" MP's who have just returned from a long summer recess and then 2 weeks later sodded off for their conferences for another 3 weeks... just a few weeks before what will probably be the most crucial time in our country's history since WW2?

 

[nlogax]

Really, no-one is bullying anyone here. Get a grip.

are these the same "hard working" MP's who have just returned from a long summer recess and then 2 weeks later sodded off for their conferences for another 3 weeks... just a few weeks before what will probably be the most crucial time in our country's history since WW2?

Spend some time in Parliament if you can, as has been suggested up the thread. You'd get a very different impression. Parliament isn't just the chambers you see on tv. There are multiple buildings that form the estate.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Really, no-one is bullying anyone here. Get a grip.

Really?? so repeatedly ignoring someone's statements and repeating the same point over and over isn't bullying no? I beg to differ...

Also I might point out that a classic bullying tactic is to say to the person feeling bullied "no-one's bullying you. Get a grip"

Ergo... if the cap fits... wear it!

 

[nlogax]

Really?? so repeatedly ignoring someone's statements and repeating the same point over and over isn't bullying no? I beg to differ...

Just take a deep breath. This is just people taking issue with what you have to say, and other people not understanding what your point is..and vice versa. That's all. I don't see any bullying or bile.

 

[fowler9]

Really?? so repeatedly ignoring someone's statements and repeating the same point over and over isn't bullying no? I beg to differ...

Also I might point out that a classic bullying tactic is to say to the person feeling bullied "no-one's bullying you. Get a grip"

Ergo... if the cap fits... wear it!

I have to admit that whilst I wouldn't want you to feel bullied, disagreeing with someone is not the same as bullying them. Not liking people disagreeing with you and saying you are going to report them to whoever for doing so is bullying.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I have to admit that whilst I wouldn't want you to feel bullied, disagreeing with someone is not the same as bullying them. Not liking people disagreeing with you and saying you are going to report them to whoever for doing so is bullying.

good grief.... where do you get off? I have apologised and acknowledged that I may have been in error in things I have said.. I have also on more than one occasion explained what I actually meant when something I've said has caused offence....

yet still some on here.... yourself included... want to ignore my apologies and still rake over what was/ wasn't said...even though I have said more than once that I want a line drawn in the sand

THE FACT THAT YOU CONTINUE TO TELL ME IT ISN'T BULLYING DOESN'T ALTER THE FACTS... IF YOU REFUSE TO LET SOMETHING DROP AFTER REPEATED REQUESTS TO DO SO IS BULLYING.

If you don't believe me look up the word in a damn dictionary!

 

[Bromley boy]

I have to admit that whilst I wouldn't want you to feel bullied, disagreeing with someone is not the same as bullying them. Not liking people disagreeing with you and saying you are going to report them to whoever for doing so is bullying.

We should give @Teflon Lettuce some kudos for admitting he’d misunderstood something. Many on here wouldn’t be so honest.