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Boris Johnson is a liability.

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eotw

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As far as I remember, Ireland has only one land border with any other EU member state... US... also AFAIR Ireland is not part of the schengen area and therefore conducts the same level of border checks at it's ports as we do... otherwise what would be the point of us NOT being part of the schengen area when we have an open border with Ireland.... therefore there is no need to have any form of border control between NI and Eire... because there is already a border in the Irish Sea!

The problem on the NI border is the movement of goods, Eire does not have to check goods travelling in or out to the rest of the EU because they are in the Custom Union and the Single Market. After we leave the EU we will not be and therefore all goods travelling between the UK and EU will have to go through Customs. Customs posts on the NI border are seen as being in contravention of the GFA.

What border in the Irish Sea? If there is one, don't tell the DUP, they won't be happy.
 
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AlterEgo

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oh pur-lease... is it too difficult to understand my point? Ireland was part of the UK until it ceded from the Union... but there was still freedom of movement between Ireland and the Union of the United Kingdom... a case of a member state ceding from a Union and keeping freedom of movement... so what is so different about the UK, as a member state ceding from the Union of the EU and still having freedom of movement?

still I can't expect a remoaner to understand a simple point that blows their argument out of the water can I?

You fundamentally misunderstand the issue of the Irish border. Others have pointed this out to you. You’re talking nonsense.

Do you understand the difference between the emergence of Ireland’s independence as a sovereign nation and a member state leaving the EU?

If you don’t, then tone down the misplaced hubris in your posts.

As far as I remember, Ireland has only one land border with any other EU member state... US... also AFAIR Ireland is not part of the schengen area and therefore conducts the same level of border checks at it's ports as we do... otherwise what would be the point of us NOT being part of the schengen area when we have an open border with Ireland.... therefore there is no need to have any form of border control between NI and Eire... because there is already a border in the Irish Sea!

Oh God please stop.
 

bnm

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Yes. Please stop Teflon Lettuce. Or at the very least take your fundamental misunderstandings to the EU thread.

Anyone seen Alexander in this thread recently? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

Teflon Lettuce

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You fundamentally misunderstand the issue of the Irish border. Others have pointed this out to you. You’re talking nonsense.

Do you understand the difference between the emergence of Ireland’s independence as a sovereign nation and a member state leaving the EU?

If you don’t, then tone down the misplaced hubris in your posts.



Oh God please stop.
I see.... the usual argument from a remainer... "you don't know what you're talking about, you're stupid... shut up" with not ONE shred of evidence to support your claim that I am wrong...and not a single point of argument against the point made.... the internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Na-na-na NAna I'm not listening!"
 

eotw

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I see.... the usual argument from a remainer... "you don't know what you're talking about, you're stupid... shut up" with not ONE shred of evidence to support your claim that I am wrong...and not a single point of argument against the point made.... the internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Na-na-na NAna I'm not listening!"
I have not said that to you, however you have not answered my point.

So as to avoid confusion, a straight forward question, where will the customs post be for goods travelling between the UK and the EU?
 

Teflon Lettuce

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eotw has already shown why you are wrong. Now argue their points that rebut yours.
as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out now... I was not talking about the NI/Eire border per se... I was using the fact that Eire ceded from a union and still kept commonality with the union it left... therefore proving the EU's claim that it can't be done is false.... is that really such a hard argument to follow....

As to the border between Eire/ NI as I remember it being taught to me {by London Irish neighbours born and raised in Eire- and supporters of a united Ireland} the border between Eire and NI was originally nothing more than a formality and basically you was just "nodded through" it wasn't until the Troubles and the increased security risks that the border became a "hard" border
 

Bromley boy

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Yes. Please stop Teflon Lettuce. Or at the very least take your fundamental misunderstandings to the EU thread.

Anyone seen Alexander in this thread recently? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Huh? Who is Alexander?

I thought this thread was about Boris.
 

EM2

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as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out now... I was not talking about the NI/Eire border per se... I was using the fact that Eire ceded from a union and still kept commonality with the union it left... therefore proving the EU's claim that it can't be done is false.... is that really such a hard argument to follow....
Because (again) they are not the same union. There is no open border anywhere between the EU and a non-EEA state.
As to the border between Eire/ NI as I remember it being taught to me {by London Irish neighbours born and raised in Eire- and supporters of a united Ireland} the border between Eire and NI was originally nothing more than a formality and basically you was just "nodded through" it wasn't until the Troubles and the increased security risks that the border became a "hard" border
Because (again) they were not moving goods. I suggest actually reading some Irish history.

Have a look at this article about the Norway-Sweden border:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561
(hint: it's not open).
But back at the Svinesund customs operation, Kristen Hoiberget thinks we should not underestimate that challenge.
He is dealing with 1,300 lorries a day, while more than ten times as many go through the port of Dover and the Eurotunnel freight terminal.

He advises the UK to get a decent trade deal with the EU: "If you don't get any agreement, it's a big problem - everything has to be stopped and you have to declare everything. If you don't have collaboration you will have to stop on both sides of the border and there is a lot of red tape. So I wish you the best of luck!"
 
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eotw

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as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out now... I was not talking about the NI/Eire border per se... I was using the fact that Eire ceded from a union and still kept commonality with the union it left... therefore proving the EU's claim that it can't be done is false.... is that really such a hard argument to follow....

But the UK doesn't want to keep commonality with the EU, it wants to make it's own trade deals etc.

Barnier produced a graphic with the different possible deals, I can't find the original but this article explains it

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...-on-bespoke-model_uk_5a39497ce4b0fc99878f2058



As to the border between Eire/ NI as I remember it being taught to me {by London Irish neighbours born and raised in Eire- and supporters of a united Ireland} the border between Eire and NI was originally nothing more than a formality and basically you was just "nodded through" it wasn't until the Troubles and the increased security risks that the border became a "hard" border

People could travel freely under the CTA however goods had to be declared. There were customs posts, I know this, I saw them and the custom posts which were targeted by terrorists.
 

furnessvale

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Because (again) they are not the same union. There is no open border anywhere between the EU and a non-EEA state.
A situation the EU has to maintain lest any of its citizens gain access to goods at worldwide prices and realise just what a con the whole EU is!
 

AlterEgo

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I see.... the usual argument from a remainer... "you don't know what you're talking about, you're stupid... shut up" with not ONE shred of evidence to support your claim that I am wrong...and not a single point of argument against the point made.... the internet version of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "Na-na-na NAna I'm not listening!"

It might help to know my Mastermind subject would probably be Irish politics in the 20th Century.

You don’t need my assistance in making you look ignorant by giving detailed corrections (others are doing so anyway), and being shown to be factually incorrect wouldn’t stop you posting nonsense anyway. Do carry on.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Because (again) they are not the same union. There is no open border anywhere between the EU and a non-EEA state.

Because (again) they were not moving goods. I suggest actually reading some Irish history.

Have a look at this article about the Norway-Sweden border:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41412561
(hint: it's not open).

Er... open border between Switzerland and the EU.... but of course you're obfuscating the issue by now quoting the EEA rather than the EU... the point of us not being in the EEA after Brexit is because the EU won't agree to it because we dare to want to take back control!
 

Teflon Lettuce

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It might help to know my Mastermind subject would probably be Irish politics in the 20th Century.

You don’t need my assistance in making you look ignorant by giving detailed corrections (others are doing so anyway), and being shown to be factually incorrect wouldn’t stop you posting nonsense anyway. Do carry on.
oh? so because you have a theoretical knowledge of the subject that makes you correct does it? whereas I grew up with people who had to deal with the issues caused by the division of Ireland... and their families who lived it on a DAILY basis? hmmm.... so my neighbours who were from Eire, were pro- United Ireland and {I suspect had strong Loyalist tendancies} would scupper their whole argument on a lie that there was, and had always been since partition, a hard border between Eire and NI.... seems to me that would be a strange way of arguing that the situation was unfair... by proving that it wasn't by your own argument... but never mind... I'm just ignorant and stupid because I don't agree with you....thanks for showing and proving to me your superior intelligence!
 

EM2

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Er... open border between Switzerland and the EU
Oh, really?
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-forensics-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-the-borders-11489739
...if there is a border which works like clockwork then surely it is here: the boundary between two countries known for their efficiency - Switzerland and one of its EU neighbours, Germany.

Things did not look good on my approach to the Weil am Rhein border crossing near Basel. While cars were whizzing through the crossing because Switzerland is in Schengen with no need for passport checks, the entire inside lane of the motorway was clogged with trucks.

It was the same on the other side, heading from Switzerland into Germany.

Thomas Fischer runs the border crossing and we chat on the roof of the customs building. Inside, it is full of truckers with papers to be stamped.

From the roof, I can see a line of trucks snaking off into the distance. Some are in a slow moving queue, which stretches from a series of manned kiosks back for a few kilometres, while others are parked in a lorry park which looks like it needs expansion.

Over on the other side of the road, it is an identical procedure with similar queues.

As we talk, it dawns on me that this is what an external EU border looks like - even with close alignment to EU regulations. Despite all this, Mr Fischer is upbeat. He is proud of its efficiency.

"The lorry drivers are sometimes surprised how fast they can pass the border in Switzerland," he says.

We watch different goods passing through the kiosk - barcodes are scanned and papers stamped. We have the full guided tour.

A transporter of new cars edges forward as two boats on a low loader are cleared to pass in front. Behind are countless trucks with who-knows-what inside.

But the customs officials here know what is inside because they are required to.

"On the other side of the road, for exports from Switzerland, it's the same," says Mr Fischer.
"Then you start with Swiss customs then you go to German (EU) customs."

Whether all this is seen as efficient or not, the point is - even with close alignment between both sides - these checks are what is required. From boats to cars and everything in between, if it is commercial then it has to be checked in one way or another.
... but of course you're obfuscating the issue by now quoting the EEA rather than the EU... the point of us not being in the EEA after Brexit is because the EU won't agree to it because we dare to want to take back control!
Deliberately, because if I didn't some smart alec would come along and say 'actually some countries have frictionless borders with the EU'. Those being in the EEA, of course. And why will the UK not be in the EEA? Because they don't want to abide by the rules of the EEA.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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You didn’t mean to type that, did you?!
er why not? I'm talking about over 30 yrs ago when I was a kid... I'm anonymous on here so neither I nor they can be identified.. and it is only on hindsight that I have come to that suspicion....perhaps a better wording would have been "loyalist sympathies" though
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Oh, really?
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-forensics-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-the-borders-11489739


Deliberately, because if I didn't some smart alec would come along and say 'actually some countries have frictionless borders with the EU'. Those being in the EEA, of course. And why will the UK not be in the EEA? Because they don't want to abide by the rules of the EEA.
strange... the views expressed in that article are nothing like what I witnessed on my many crossings of borders between the EU and Switzerland as a coach tour driver... and that includes not seeing "a line of trucks snaking off into the distance. Some are in a slow moving queue, which stretches from a series of manned kiosks back for a few kilometres, while others are parked in a lorry park which looks like it needs expansion."
 

Teflon Lettuce

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If there was no hard border, why were there customs posts?
if you are talking about a hard border where everything is stopped and gone over with a fine tooth comb that was NOT the case until after the Troubles started....
 

EM2

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Teflon Lettuce

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right, to try and clear up the confusion once and for all about why I mentioned the Eire/ NI border in the first place...

it was to prove the point that the assertion of the EU that you can't have a frictionless border between an organisation and a state that cedes from that organisation is factually incorrect as shown by the fact that for many yrs before the EU was created there was an example of such... namely the Eire/ NI border.

I will no longer answer any more comments from anyone who cannot see that basic point and wish to continue a fatuous argument about the minutiae of EU rules....

In fact, it is this stupid nonsense of refusing to accept points made by those of an opposing view that stops me from posting in any Brexit forum.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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That makes no sense.
why not? you seem to be the one confused... Unionists believe in keeping the Union with the UK as in the DUP. Loyalists are Loyal to a United Ireland. Therefore someone who believes in a United Ireland are loyalist NOT Unionist
 

Bromley boy

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er why not? I'm talking about over 30 yrs ago when I was a kid... I'm anonymous on here so neither I nor they can be identified.. and it is only on hindsight that I have come to that suspicion....perhaps a better wording would have been "loyalist sympathies" though

I might have misunderstood your point.

If they were pro a United Ireland how did they manage to have loyalist tendancies?
 

eotw

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if you are talking about a hard border where everything is stopped and gone over with a fine tooth comb that was NOT the case until after the Troubles started....

Soldiers searching cars on the border were not looking for contraband other than guns/explosive.

For the purpose of a deal with the EU, HMG has agreed* that there will be no new physical infrastructure on the border - a camera checking lorry number plates would be new infrastructure (despite there already being security surveillance cameras).

*Personally I cannot understand why May agreed to this so easily
 
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