Boris Johnson is a liability.

[EM2]

right, to try and clear up the confusion once and for all about why I mentioned the Eire/ NI border in the first place...

it was to prove the point that the assertion of the EU that you can't have a frictionless border between an organisation and a state that cedes from that organisation is factually incorrect as shown by the fact that for many yrs before the EU was created there was an example of such... namely the Eire/ NI border.

Except it wasn't.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Except it wasn't.

wasn't what?

 

[EM2]

why not? you seem to be the one confused... Unionists believe in keeping the Union with the UK as in the DUP. Loyalists are Loyal to a United Ireland. Therefore someone who believes in a United Ireland are loyalist NOT Unionist

Er...no. Loyalists and Unionists are basically the same thing. Those that want a united Ireland are Republicans.
If you can't get that basic point right, I suspect that you are monumentally mistaken about most other things regarding Northern Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_loyalism

Ulster loyalism is a political ideology found primarily among working class Ulster Protestants in Northern Ireland, whose status as a part of the United Kingdom has remained controversial. Most Ulster Protestants are descendants of settlers from Great Britain in the 17th and 18th centuries. Like unionists, loyalists are attached to the British monarchy, support the continued existence of Northern Ireland, and oppose a united Ireland. Ulster loyalism has been described as a kind of ethnic nationalism and "a variation of British nationalism".[4][5] It is strongly associated with paramilitarism.

 

[EM2]

wasn't what?

Frictionless.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Er...no. Loyalists and Unionists are basically the same thing. Those that want a united Ireland are Republicans.
If you can't get that basic point right, I suspect that you are monumentally mistaken about most other things regarding Northern Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_loyalism

lol I just absolutely LOVE it... you're quoting that fount of all wisdom and infallible knowledge... Wikipedia....

ok so if that article is correct why were the provisional IRA referred to by the BBC as loyalist para military then? because they were loyal to the Republican cause perchance?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Frictionless.

except, until the troubles and the need for extra security it effectively WAS....

 

[AlterEgo]

oh? so because you have a theoretical knowledge of the subject that makes you correct does it? whereas I grew up with people who had to deal with the issues caused by the division of Ireland... and their families who lived it on a DAILY basis? hmmm.... so my neighbours who were from Eire, were pro- United Ireland and {I suspect had strong Loyalist tendancies} would scupper their whole argument on a lie that there was, and had always been since partition, a hard border between Eire and NI.... seems to me that would be a strange way of arguing that the situation was unfair... by proving that it wasn't by your own argument... but never mind... I'm just ignorant and stupid because I don't agree with you....thanks for showing and proving to me your superior intelligence!

Oh dear. It gets worse doesn’t it?

You have confused being pro-United Ireland and Loyalism. They are certainly not the same thing. Loyalism in an Irish context means loyalty to the British crown. It is the literal opposite of republicanism and United Irelandism.

Loyalism is to unionism roughly what republicanism is to nationalism - basically the implication is not just a political belief but the willingness to take action (military or otherwise) to assert that belief.

I do not have a theoretical knowledge of Ireland. I have a practical one, and my family lived in Ireland through all of the conflicts of the 20th century, various members and generations were on various “sides”. Last year I wrote a paper on the public relations and communications strategies used by the Provisional IRA.

I do not have superior intelligence but I do have an excellent knowledge of the history and politics of Ireland. I also have, for an English person, a very deep practical understanding of the issues. My father was a member of the original Civil Rights campaign, and there are members of my extended family who were killed during the 69-98 Troubles. My father and uncles gave evidence to the Savile Tribunal - the Bloody Sunday Inquiry.

Also please don’t use “Eire”, even Irish people don’t use the term when speaking English. It is the Irish language name for Ireland, and it doesn’t make you look clever. It makes you look like you don’t know anything about the place.

Could I ask you to please stop digging.

 

[EM2]

lol I just absolutely LOVE it... you're quoting that fount of all wisdom and infallible knowledge... Wikipedia....

Please provide evidence that counters the link that I posted.

ok so if that article is correct why were the provisional IRA referred to by the BBC as loyalist para military then? because they were loyal to the Republican cause perchance?

They didn't. Loyalist paramilitaries were the UDA and UVF. If you can find evidence of the BBC stating this, I'd be interested to see it.

 

[EM2]

except, until the troubles and the need for extra security it effectively WAS....

It. Was. Not.
http://www.irishborderlands.com/living/customs/index.html

Though the political partition of Ireland occurred in 1920-1 the border became more significant both as a symbol of separation and as practical reality following the creation of the customs barrier in 1923 which financially separated the Irish Free State from Northern Ireland and the British State. A system of duties payable on the movement of goods between the two jurisdictions was put in place and with it a whole new set of arrangements for the regulation of the movement of people and goods across the border, that involved paperwork, permits, custom points, practices of inspection and officially approved routes for travel.

In order to make a system of checking effective, people moving goods for personal use or sale were required to cross the border at a series of official designated crossing place where their goods could be checked. These 'Approved Frontier Crossing Points' and approved routes on the existing road network were agreed between the British and Irish custom authorities. Those bringing goods across the border were required to use these routes at the approved daytime hours. Some roads near approved crossing points were also blocked at this stage but most other roads remained open for people travelling on foot.

However, car travel was prohibited on them and people using these routes could be subject to checks and penalties from patrolling customs officers. These fifteen routes and crossing points remained in place for over six decades. With their associated custom stations, known was 'frontier posts', 'frontier stations' or locally as 'custom huts', on either side, they became an established and significant aspect of the border Customs officers on both sides were responsible for checking what people were bringing with them as they crossed the border and imposing duties when appropriate. People were required to keep up with changes in the lists of what goods were subject to duties and the nature of any allowances or exclusions.

In addition the routes of the railway network at the time of partition frequently crossed the border and a new system for interrupting cross border train journeys for the examination of the goods being transported by individuals or in bulk to supply retailers was established. The difficulties of running railways services under these conditions contributed to the closure of the railway lines that crossed the border. Only the cross-border railway service between Dublin and Belfast survived the closures of the 1950s. These closures had serious consequences for the patterns of work, trade and travel that had developed round the railway network and increased the isolation of the borderlands.

Therefore, until the early 1990s every journey across the border on foot, bicycle, cart, car or train could be subject to some form of inspection either at customs points or by custom patrols. As travelling with some form of shopping is such a routine part of everyday life, the requirement to use approved routes or be subject to penalties meant that most travel in the borderlands had to be planned around using the approved crossing points. This system resulted in three of the key features of borderland life – firstly the experience of being checked by customs officers either side of the border; secondly, people’s efforts to avoid restrictions on or duties payable on the goods they brought with them across the border by smuggling goods across; and thirdly the much longer journeys many people faced in order to cross at an approved route much further away rather than the unapproved routes near by.

The movement of motor vehicles was also regulated after April 1925. Those travelling across the border by car or van were required to obtain authorised pass for travel known as a 'triptyque' or bond in the form of an annual deposit. Acquiring one could be time consuming, difficult and expensive especially for those who lived in the Free State (and later Republic) and needed to have their bond guaranteed by a ratepaying resident in Northern Ireland.

Drivers were required to have a pass book stamped on crossing the border either way and to either do so during daytime hours or pay to cross and be officially stamped back across the border at a specified requested time. Those who failed to have their car pass stamped on the way back across the border could have their vehicle confiscated. This system of regulating car travel also became an established feature of borderland life. Vehicles owners were also required to make sure their vehicles were taxed and insured for travel on both sides of the border.

 

[Bromley boy]

ok so if that article is correct why were the provisional IRA referred to by the BBC as loyalist para military then? because they were loyal to the Republican cause perchance?

Are they?

I think there is some confusion here about what “loyalist” means in the northern irish context.

It. Was. Not.
http://www.irishborderlands.com/living/customs/index.html

We have found agreement at last!

 

[fowler9]

As far as I remember, Ireland has only one land border with any other EU member state... US... also AFAIR Ireland is not part of the schengen area and therefore conducts the same level of border checks at it's ports as we do... otherwise what would be the point of us NOT being part of the schengen area when we have an open border with Ireland.... therefore there is no need to have any form of border control between NI and Eire... because there is already a border in the Irish Sea!

I'm really biting my tongue. I can't really work out what it is you can't understand.

 

[EM2]

We have found agreement at last!

'Cos it's a fact, not an opinion

 

[eotw]

And as I keep saying until the Custom Union and Single Market the border was not frictionless. There were custom checks for goods. I was brought up 15 miles from the border in the 60s (before the troubles began in earnest), 70s and 80s and remember them clearly. My neighbour was jailed for smuggling, you can't smuggle across a frictionless border.

 

[Bromley boy]

'Cos it's a fact, not an opinion

Let’s go for broke and see if we can also agree on an opinion.

In my opinion it be great if the BREXIT border issue could be solved by Northern Ireland being ceded to the ROI.

Do you agree?

Drumroll....

 

[EM2]

Let’s go for broke and see if we can also agree on an opinion.

In my opinion it be great if the BREXIT border issue could be solved by Northern Ireland being ceded to the ROI.

Do you agree?

Drumroll....

In my opinion, a united Ireland would generally be a good thing. However, I don't live there, and I think that the difference in outlook between different parties in the North is too large to be overcome just now.

 

[Bromley boy]

In my opinion, a united Ireland would generally be a good thing. However, I don't live there, and I think that the difference in outlook between different parties in the North is too large to be overcome just now.

There we have it. Double-bubble. Agreement on both fact and opinion.

The forum should give us a prize of some sort .

 

[fowler9]

There we have it. Double-bubble. Agreement on both fact and opinion.

The forum should give us a prize of some sort .

Let's not get carried away. Ha ha. We may start getting along. Ha ha.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

all I've got to say is "good grief all this vitriol from making one little analogy... whether the analogy was correct or incorrect in the first place is immaterial....

question is, dear remainers... why did you not just say "that's wrong here's the evidence" in the first place? why go through the rigmarole of mis quoting, misinterpretation etc?

For the record... I am pro Brexit.. yes I did vote knowing that it would throw up many problems, but I weighed these up against what I perceived as the proposed benefits of leaving... and chose that leaving the EU would be the best option. I don't have all the answers, and never have I claimed to do so.

I also do not claim to be the most informed person on any subject and never would. An analogy here... I have read "A Brief History of Time" and fully understood the arguments put forward by Stephen Hawking... though for the life of me I'd never be able to explain them to anyone here!

So, dear remainers {and the EU for that matter} do not lower yourselves to trying to make anyone who dares to disagree with you look stupid... in the end you just make yourselves look like bullies...

As I said before, this is the reason why I don't normally discuss Brexit issues... because you just cannot have a reasonable, rational debate with anyone that voted Remain.

I am now unwatching this thread... and you are all welcome to argue yourselves into the nearest black hole!

 

[AlterEgo]

Hope you’re off to read some books.

 

[fowler9]

all I've got to say is "good grief all this vitriol from making one little analogy... whether the analogy was correct or incorrect in the first place is immaterial....

question is, dear remainers... why did you not just say "that's wrong here's the evidence" in the first place? why go through the rigmarole of mis quoting, misinterpretation etc?

For the record... I am pro Brexit.. yes I did vote knowing that it would throw up many problems, but I weighed these up against what I perceived as the proposed benefits of leaving... and chose that leaving the EU would be the best option. I don't have all the answers, and never have I claimed to do so.

I also do not claim to be the most informed person on any subject and never would. An analogy here... I have read "A Brief History of Time" and fully understood the arguments put forward by Stephen Hawking... though for the life of me I'd never be able to explain them to anyone here!

So, dear remainers {and the EU for that matter} do not lower yourselves to trying to make anyone who dares to disagree with you look stupid... in the end you just make yourselves look like bullies...

As I said before, this is the reason why I don't normally discuss Brexit issues... because you just cannot have a reasonable, rational debate with anyone that voted Remain.

I am now unwatching this thread... and you are all welcome to argue yourselves into the nearest black hole!

You normally don't discuss Brexit issues!!!! You haven't shut up!!! I'll ignore you calling remain voters "Remoaners" for a second and ask you what the benefits of Brexit are. You mention the benefits and like many others don't tell anyone what they are!!! I don't blame you for refusing to watch the thread again, you'd probably be embarrassed about what you posted (I've done it myself). For the record, I don't need to try and make you look stupid. Sorry for being rude.

 

[furnessvale]

Let’s go for broke and see if we can also agree on an opinion.

In my opinion it be great if the BREXIT border issue could be solved by Northern Ireland being ceded to the ROI.

Do you agree?

Drumroll....

For the sake of balance, it could also be solved by Eire rejoining the United Kingdom.

 

[EM2]

As I said before, this is the reason why I don't normally discuss Brexit issues... because you just cannot have a reasonable, rational debate with anyone that voted Remain.

So why did you bring the EU, Brexit and Ireland into a thread about Boris Johnson?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So why did you bring the EU, Brexit and Ireland into a thread about Boris Johnson?

good grief I DIDN'T... This for the record is how it slid into Brexit:

His company's offices are in London and Singapore.
http://somersetcm.com/contact-us/

According to Rees-Mogg, they have recently opened a new fund in Dublin, not an office. Scroll through to 24 mins 50 secs in this video for the relevant conversation.

Do you have contrary evidence?

Regarding Rees-Mogg talking about the Irish Border and EU rules, I don't see it the same as some. The EU bending the rules for people who are members of or want to be members of the EU (When they think it will benefit the EU) are not in the slightest bit like bending the rules for a country that doesn't want to be in the EU and only hopes to benefit itself. Which other none EU countries should the EU bend the rules and have open borders with? Russia? Belarus?

No..his point was this...during the Brexit "negotiations" the EU have repeatedly said "the rules are the rules. The rules cannot be bent!"
whilst the Maastricht treaty, in regards to setting up the Eurozone clearly states in the rules of the Eurozone that no Eurozone economy can ever be bailed out under ANY circumstances... yet, quite clearly, a number of countries HAVE been bailed out... therefore bending or breaking the rules...

His question, which the witness refused repeatedly to answer, was whether the EU rules are intransigent and immutable and can never be broken/ bent/ changed to suit the EU {as in Brexit} or whether the rules are there to be bent/ broken/ ignored when it suits the EU {as in the Eurozone financial crisis}

in response other members then started the usual remainer tactics of incomprehension of a simple hypothesis, obfuscation, selective quoting, and- to be frank- more and more desperate tangents so that the original point/ argument has been forgotten about....

But please, before accusing me of an action... check up thread and make sure you're accusing the right person of the deed!

 

[fowler9]

Ann

good grief I DIDN'T... This for the record is how it slid into Brexit:






in response other members then started the usual remainer tactics of incomprehension of a simple hypothesis, obfuscation, selective quoting, and- to be frank- more and more desperate tangents so that the original point/ argument has been forgotten about....

But please, before accusing me of an action... check up thread and make sure you're accusing the right person of the deed!

Aaaaaaha ha ha. Says you quoting me from days ago not quoting anyone. Are you trying to be ironic or are you stupid? You need help.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Ann

Aaaaaaha ha ha. Says you quoting me from days ago not quoting anyone. Are you trying to be ironic or are you stupid? You need help.

and how does showing it was a reply I made to your post that was hijacked by others to slide this debate into a Brexit slanging match make ME stupid? I suggest you stop looking in the piece of glass with a silvered back while you sling accusations of stupidity around....

 

[Bromley boy]

For the sake of balance, it could also be solved by Eire rejoining the United Kingdom.

It really couldn’t be solved like that though, could it?!

But you know that already.

 

[Bromley boy]

lol I just absolutely LOVE it... you're quoting that fount of all wisdom and infallible knowledge... Wikipedia....

ok so if that article is correct why were the provisional IRA referred to by the BBC as loyalist para military then? because they were loyal to the Republican cause perchance?

Your postings are generally good value and I agree with some of what you say.

But, for the sake of your own credibility, you should go on record as acknowledging you were completely wrong here.

 

[superkev]

I often wonder what Boris and his bexiteers will say to those people particularly the car industry who are likely to be on the dole if something regarding customs unions and the Europeans accepting british standards as equivalent to eu and other similar standards issues.
K

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I often wonder what Boris and his bexiteers will say to those people particularly the car industry who are likely to be on the dole if something regarding customs unions and the Europeans accepting british standards as equivalent to eu and other similar standards issues.
K

you mean all those thousands of {insert industry} workers who were going to be on the dole if we didn't join the Euro? and look at how THAT one worked out lol... as I said in an earlier post I'm still waiting for that economic meltdown we were threatened would happen the day after the referendum if we voted to leave... well we voted leave... and all that happened was that our currency weakened... which, if you talk about the German economy, is good for exports.... strangely whenever the pound loses a little bit of value economists then want to tell us it's a disaster for our economy.... well you can't have it both ways... a weak currency is either good or bad for the economy.... which one is it?

 

[furnessvale]

It really couldn’t be solved like that though, could it?!

But you know that already.

Just as you REALLY know your suggestion wouldn't solve things either!