Boris Johnson is a liability.

[fowler9]

how is it a contradiction? Freedom of movement has nothing to do with control of borders and immigration... fact is, under the current EU rules every single one of those refugees that were "invited" into Germany can, once granted citizenship, up sticks and move to the UK and there is NOTHING we can do about it... heck, under current rules the EU can FORCE us to take a quota of refugees or fine us for not doing so! This is where remainers get confused... freedom of movement and control of borders are NOT the same thing!

Ah right, You do realise that the vast majority of those none EU citizens that are granted citizenship in Germany, Belgium or wherever actually stay there. we are not Forced to take refugees. Perhaps Rees-Mogg and bloody Johnson should ask Italy how they are currently legally allowed to turn boats of refugees away. This is were you are confused.

They're not allowed to argue one way or the other... they have to abdicate responsibility to the EU negotiators... whether the outcome harms their economy or does it good.... them's the rules...

Hmmm, so the people of ROI who want to remain in the EU and the people of Northern Ireland who had a remain majority are being forced by the EU?

 

[fowler9]

Eh? I'm talking about the Irish/UK reciprocal right to travel/work. I thought I was quite clear that I thought this has nothing to do with the EU. Why do you think Ireland isn't in Schengen?

(Let's not go down the "the majority of a region voted blah" route again, it's unhelpful and in the case of Northern Ireland very misleading!)

The whole free travel agreement thing gets complicated when we decide to leave a huge trade block that the ROI doesn't want to leave. I haven't been able to find anyone who can explain exactly where that stands. As for you wanting to ignore the fact that the majority of people over there don't want to leave the EU I am really not shocked you don't want to discuss it. Why is it misleading in Northern Ireland? Was the vote faked?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Ah right, You do realise that the vast majority of those none EU citizens that are granted citizenship in Germany, Belgium or wherever actually stay there. we are not Forced to take refugees. Perhaps Rees-Mogg and bloody Johnson should ask Italy how they are currently legally allowed to turn boats of refugees away. This is were you are confused.

Hmmm, so the people of ROI who want to remain in the EU and the people of Northern Ireland who had a remain majority are being forced by the EU?

and you accuse ME of being confused... what have the people of the ROI got to do with the referendum? THEY didn't vote in it... they are not part of the UK!... in fact, because the ROI didn't take part in the referendum how do you KNOW that the people there wish to stay in the EU?

As to your other points... well whether a refugee decides to stay or move on from the country that gives them citizenship is immaterial... they still have the RIGHT to move to the UK without any further checks... and as we have seen in Germany AND Belgium those checks haven't exactly been stringent have they?

As to the Italians being allowed to turn boatloads away... well of course they can.. that's within the rules... they haven't landed yet and been given refugee status... typical remainer arguments really... you merge arguments about different subjects and then conflate that homogenous blob into trying to make out that anyone who agrees with Brexit is a raving Xenophobe that hasn't got a clue about the issues.... it really is tiresome...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

As for you wanting to ignore the fact that the majority of people over there don't want to leave the EU I am really not shocked you don't want to discuss it. Why is it misleading in Northern Ireland? Was the vote faked?

Simply because it's clutching at straws... the nation State of the UK voted to leave the EU. Northern Ireland, like Wales, Scotland and England, is NOT a nation state in it's own right...it is a constituent state of the UK.. heck if we went down that road does that mean that if say, Penzance, voted to remain then it should be able to cede from the UK and remain part of the EU?

The whole free travel agreement thing gets complicated when we decide to leave a huge trade block that the ROI doesn't want to leave. I haven't been able to find anyone who can explain exactly where that stands.

how is it complicated? Neither the UK or Eire are part of the Schengen agreement as far as I know. If it IS so complicated to trade with a nation outside of the EU block then how comes every other item you buy these days says "made in China"?

 

[EM2]

... heck, under current rules the EU can FORCE us to take a quota of refugees or fine us for not doing so!

Not true.
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-cant-be-forced-accept-more-refugees/

European leaders can't "force" the UK to take a quota of refugees from elsewhere in the EU, or anywhere else for that matter.

The reported EU proposal to relocate 120,000 asylum seekers from countries like Hungary, Greece and Italy appears to be on top of a plan first floated in May this year, which sought to distribute 40,000 people among other member states. This explains the reference to 160,000 by the Express.

Such a scheme might compel most member states to accept more asylum seekers, but the UK is an exception. We have what's often referred to as an opt-out, although strictly speaking what happens is that EU laws on the likes of asylum and border control don't apply to the UK unless we choose to opt in.

The European Commission acknowledged as much in its proposals in May, and again in its more recent proposals.

It left the UK out of its calculations for what it considered a fair scheme for relocating asylum seekers within the EU, and similarly seemed to accept that Britain couldn't be forced to resettle people from outside the EU either.

 

[EM2]

As to your other points... well whether a refugee decides to stay or move on from the country that gives them citizenship is immaterial... they still have the RIGHT to move to the UK without any further checks... and as we have seen in Germany AND Belgium those checks haven't exactly been stringent have they?

And if, after three months, they are not supporting themselves either by employment or independent income, and are relying on the state, they can be removed. Yet the UK doesn't do that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

but what we have seen so far is the UK saying "here are our proposals" and the EU saying "no"

What we have seen so far is the UK proposing things that it knows the EU won't accept, so the UK can then turn around and say "look we tried, blame the EU". Despite the fact it is us who aren't budging.

no what I want is freedom of movement of goods and people but at the same time control over who gets to come into this country... tbh I blame Brexit solely on the shoulders of Angela Merkel and her ill-advised open invite to the "refugees"

If you want control, then why not champion for us to actually use the controls we have available to use but we don't use?

heck, under current rules the EU can FORCE us to take a quota of refugees or fine us for not doing so!

1 - No they can't, we have an opt out.
2 - Surely sharing refugees around the EU is fairer than just Italy, Greece etc bearing the burden? I am sure if the UK was in that geographic position instead you'd be complaining if the EU didn't do something to fairly disruptive the burden!

 

[greyman42]

We won't be in the EU. Why should they even consider bending the rules to suit a non member?

Because they want our £39 Billion.

 

[nlogax]

Anyway. More comment on Boris Johnson being a liability.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...-drown-under-a-gigantic-deficit-a3935251.html

"Russell Lynch: Bojonomics does not add up — this wannabe PM would drown under a gigantic deficit"

 

[muddythefish]

Anyway. More comment on Boris Johnson being a liability.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...-drown-under-a-gigantic-deficit-a3935251.html

"Russell Lynch: Bojonomics does not add up — this wannabe PM would drown under a gigantic deficit"

Fed up with Alexander? Take a look at this and donate to the worthy cause of getting him banged up for misconduct in public office:

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjusticeprosecution

How anyone can view this oaf as prime minister material is beyond comprehension.

 

[muddythefish]

Private Eye sums up Alexander.

 

[fowler9]

and you accuse ME of being confused... what have the people of the ROI got to do with the referendum? THEY didn't vote in it... they are not part of the UK!... in fact, because the ROI didn't take part in the referendum how do you KNOW that the people there wish to stay in the EU?

As to your other points... well whether a refugee decides to stay or move on from the country that gives them citizenship is immaterial... they still have the RIGHT to move to the UK without any further checks... and as we have seen in Germany AND Belgium those checks haven't exactly been stringent have they?

As to the Italians being allowed to turn boatloads away... well of course they can.. that's within the rules... they haven't landed yet and been given refugee status... typical remainer arguments really... you merge arguments about different subjects and then conflate that homogenous blob into trying to make out that anyone who agrees with Brexit is a raving Xenophobe that hasn't got a clue about the issues.... it really is tiresome...

Never said they had anything to do with the referendum. Polls in the ROI tend to show a large majority happy to remain.

Simply because it's clutching at straws... the nation State of the UK voted to leave the EU. Northern Ireland, like Wales, Scotland and England, is NOT a nation state in it's own right...it is a constituent state of the UK.. heck if we went down that road does that mean that if say, Penzance, voted to remain then it should be able to cede from the UK and remain part of the EU?



how is it complicated? Neither the UK or Eire are part of the Schengen agreement as far as I know. If it IS so complicated to trade with a nation outside of the EU block then how comes every other item you buy these days says "made in China"?

Nothing to do with Schengen, am talking about leavers thinking we can keep an open border because of the pre existing free travel agreement. I don't know if this is the case and can't find anything that says that the pre existing free movement between ROI and NI would overrule the fact that without a deal a hard border would be required.

The rest of what you said was pretty uninteresting or just putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned anything about leavers being xenophobic, I didn't even imply it without actually saying it.

 

[fowler9]

Because they want our £39 Billion.

Ha ha, fair point.

 

[eotw]

Because they want our £39 Billion.

The No Deal and pay nothing Brexit would indeed be bad for the EU but it would be catastrophic for the UK and cost our economy considerable more than £39 billion - Carney said today in a Cabinet meeting it would be similar to the 2008 crash with cost the UK economy up to £7 trillion (£7,000 billion) in lost output.

May knows this and that Canada kill whats left of our exporting manufacturing industries but also knows she has to deliver Brexit... Chequers anyone?

The EU also know this and realise our threats of withholding the £39 billion are empty. Threat is explained best in this scene from Blazing Saddles

 

[Typhoon]

Oh dear!

MP George Freeman has said he will put his name forward to be the next Tory leader if "asked to" amid continuing speculation over Theresa May's future.

It comes after the ex-minister, who once chaired Mrs May's policy board, said there should be leadership contest next summer after Brexit was settled.

He said he was "no Michael Heseltine" and would "stand back" if top figures from the "next generation" emerged.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519604

Presumably working on the assumption that since no-one* knows who he is, they won't know of any baggage he may have (unlike those given above).

He does have two things in common with Mr Johnson though.

The crows are circling.

* - well, almost no-one.

 

[AlterEgo]

We won't be in the EU. Why should they even consider bending the rules to suit a non member?

Bending the rules will suit Ireland, a member.

 

[fowler9]

Bending the rules will suit Ireland, a member.

To be honest I am passed caring today. Enjoy your sovereignty and all the other joys of Brexit.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

To be honest I am passed caring today. Enjoy your sovereignty and all the other joys of Brexit.

Thanks I will...

tbh the EU talks a lot of old codswallop about free movement and Brexit...saying it can't be done... oh no? Ireland proves that it CAN be done... When Ireland decided to cede from the UK it gained it's sovereignty and control of it's borders... but there was still free movement between Ireland and the UK... well before either became members of the EU... so please can any remoaners explain why it can't happen the same way between the UK and EU after Brexit?

 

[eotw]

Thanks I will...

tbh the EU talks a lot of old codswallop about free movement and Brexit...saying it can't be done... oh no? Ireland proves that it CAN be done... When Ireland decided to cede from the UK it gained it's sovereignty and control of it's borders... but there was still free movement between Ireland and the UK... well before either became members of the EU... so please can any remoaners explain why it can't happen the same way between the UK and EU after Brexit?

The NI border problem is nothing to do with free of movement of people. It is about the movement of goods across the border and that was always a problem. I was brought up near the border and have memories of being stopped at Pettigo on our way to Donegal and also burnt out custom posts.

 

[EM2]

... well before either became members of the EU... so please can any remoaners explain why it can't happen the same way between the UK and EU after Brexit?

*SIGH*
Previously, neither state was a member of the EU. Currently, both states are. There has not been a situation where one state is a member and one is not.
Therefore, neither the previous situation, nor the current situation, are equivalent to the future situation, which is why they will be treated differently.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

*SIGH*
Previously, neither state was a member of the EU. Currently, both states are. There has not been a situation where one state is a member and one is not.
Therefore, neither the previous situation, nor the current situation, are equivalent to the future situation, which is why they will be treated differently.

oh pur-lease... is it too difficult to understand my point? Ireland was part of the UK until it ceded from the Union... but there was still freedom of movement between Ireland and the Union of the United Kingdom... a case of a member state ceding from a Union and keeping freedom of movement... so what is so different about the UK, as a member state ceding from the Union of the EU and still having freedom of movement?

still I can't expect a remoaner to understand a simple point that blows their argument out of the water can I? I'm still waiting for the economic meltdown we were threatened would happen within 24 hrs of voting to leave.... 2 yrs on and there's no sign of it yet... mind you the same organisations threatened that it would be economic suicide to stay out of the Euro... and look what happened there!

 

[eotw]

oh pur-lease... is it too difficult to understand my point? Ireland was part of the UK until it ceded from the Union... but there was still freedom of movement between Ireland and the Union of the United Kingdom... a case of a member state ceding from a Union and keeping freedom of movement... so what is so different about the UK, as a member state ceding from the Union of the EU and still having freedom of movement?

still I can't expect a remoaner to understand a simple point that blows their argument out of the water can I? I'm still waiting for the economic meltdown we were threatened would happen within 24 hrs of voting to leave.... 2 yrs on and there's no sign of it yet... mind you the same organisations threatened that it would be economic suicide to stay out of the Euro... and look what happened there!

Why do you keep talking about freedom of movement and the NI border? It is the movement of goods which requires a hard border. There was a hard border with customs etc before the EU custom union and single market.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why do you keep talking about freedom of movement and the NI border? It is the movement of goods which requires a hard border. There was a hard border with customs etc before the EU custom union and single market.

who said I was speaking about the NI/Eire border specifically? I didn't!

 

[eotw]

Ireland was part of the UK until it ceded from the Union... but there was still freedom of movement between Ireland and the Union of the United Kingdom...

You mentioned it here

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You mentioned it here

to make the point that the EU stance on freedom of movement between an ex-member and the union is impossible is absolute twaddle...

now where is that brick wall for me to bang my head against? why is it that when it comes to Brexit remoaners just cannot or will not understand a simple point made... instead of trying to find ways of twisting my words to try and make me look silly why not try putting forward valid reasons why Eire ceding from the union of the UK is in any way different to the UK ceding from the EU

 

[eotw]

I will ignore your us of the pejorative "Remoaner", I voted remain but accept we will leave.

As you say when the RoI gained independence people were free to cross the border without passport checks or visas.
When the UK leaves the EU people will almost certainly still be able to do this, it is not an area of dispute and is covered by the CTA.

This does not cover goods and hence the need for a customs border, either in the Irish Sea or on the NI border. This is the major obstacle stopping a deal.

The CTA does not cover travel to the rest of the EU. There already are passport checks for people travelling between the UK and the EU mainland. In the event of a No Deal then the equivalent of a CTA with the EU will not be agreed and therefore we may need additional documentation to travel to the EU.

I am not trying to twist your words, I am trying to understand why you think there is equivalence between Irish Independence and the UK leaving the EU?

 

[EM2]

oh pur-lease... is it too difficult to understand my point? Ireland was part of the UK until it ceded from the Union... but there was still freedom of movement between Ireland and the Union of the United Kingdom... a case of a member state ceding from a Union and keeping freedom of movement... so what is so different about the UK, as a member state ceding from the Union of the EU and still having freedom of movement?

Because the Unions are different. The rules of one do not necessarily align with the rules of another.
ASLEF probably have different rules for members to the RMT, and they probably have different rules to TSSA.

 

[deltic]

Depends what is meant by freedom of movement. The EU is based on the four freedoms, free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour. The UK does not wish to accept the free movement of labour with most of the EU - exception is that it will with the Irish Republic. The EU will therefore not accept a deal with the UK based only the first three freedoms without the four. There is no having your cake and eating it. Boris is quite happy to accept the freedom of movement of labour as he recognises its importance to London's global position from his time as mayor.

 

[fowler9]

Thanks I will...

tbh the EU talks a lot of old codswallop about free movement and Brexit...saying it can't be done... oh no? Ireland proves that it CAN be done... When Ireland decided to cede from the UK it gained it's sovereignty and control of it's borders... but there was still free movement between Ireland and the UK... well before either became members of the EU... so please can any remoaners explain why it can't happen the same way between the UK and EU after Brexit?

Perhaps you should just explain to the UK government and the people in the EU we are negotiating with why it simply isn't a problem to have an open border between ROI and NI because you obviously know something no one else does.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Perhaps you should just explain to the UK government and the people in the EU we are negotiating with why it simply isn't a problem to have an open border between ROI and NI because you obviously know something no one else does.

As far as I remember, Ireland has only one land border with any other EU member state... US... also AFAIR Ireland is not part of the schengen area and therefore conducts the same level of border checks at it's ports as we do... otherwise what would be the point of us NOT being part of the schengen area when we have an open border with Ireland.... therefore there is no need to have any form of border control between NI and Eire... because there is already a border in the Irish Sea!