Boris Johnson is a liability.

[Typhoon]

What a dreadful state U.K. politics is in when we have no alternatives to these people!

​

Quite. I think we can probably all agree on this - and I can't see the situation getting better any time soon!

Boris has at least served at higher levels of government and is experienced.

​

His period as Foreign Secretary seemed to be a procession of foreign trips (no problem with that) and unhelpful, but 'clever', statements about foreign governments or organisations*, punctuated by a request - even demand - for a personal jet and an intervention that has endangered a British citizen.
Achievements - I can't think of any!

I saw him described in foreign media as Britain's premier diplomat. I don't think so. All the heavy lifting seemed to be done by ministers Alastair Burt and Alan Duncan.

Am I now going to say something positive about Jeremy Corbyn? No. I'm just hoping for a British Macron, who may not be wonderful but is an improvement on Hollande and Sarkozy.

* - designed, no doubt, for the home market.

 

[eotw]

Are you now telling the forum that someone who has spent:

- 8 years as mayor of London;
- 2 years as Secretary of State;
- 3 years as a shadow minister in various roles
- has been an MP since 2001

Isn’t an experienced and accomplished politician?

Accomplished?

As London Mayor

• he made London's housing shortage worse
• His handling of the riots was dreadful
  
• He bought water cannons that the police couldn't use
• Cable car
• Garden Bridge
• Estuary Airport

His record as Foreign Secretary wasn't great, a few gaffes for you

• Made a joke about the “dead bodies” getting in the way of businesses investing in Libya after its bloody civil war
  
• Made a diplomatic blunder over the British charity worker being held in a brutal Iran prison
  
• Managed to describe the entire continent of Africa as “that country”
  
• Compared traditional Maori greeting to a headbutt while on a tour of New Zealand
  
• Compared Francois Hollande’s attitude towards Brexit with a prisoner of war camp
  
• Caught on camera part-reciting a colonial poem in a Burmese temple before being stopped by an ambassador

He is not fit to be Prime minister.

Just remembered, he is also a coward. Day return to Kabul to avoid vote on 3rd runway, didn't resign post Chequers until after David Davis.

 

[bramling]

Slightly off topic.

But that’s an interesting point. Does Corbyn’s Labour really appeal to its northern working class heartland any more?

It strikes me Labour’s appeal these days is less to Durham miners than it is to a weird combination of deluded trots, naive students, religious conservatives (from one religion in particular) and rich, clueless urbanites who live in zone 1, eat quinoa on toast for breakfast every morning, and don’t actually have to work for a living.

I’m sure I read an article recently citing statistics showing how many traditional working class voters no longer believe Labour represents them. I’ll try and dig it out.

The north-east is still a Labour heartland. Barring a few inner-city areas Labour’s main heartlands are now reduced to the north-east (eg Teesside, Durham and Tyne & Wear), South Wales and of course London. There’s certainly a fundamental difference between the white working-class vote in the first two, and the probably heavy ethnic minority vote in London.

I’m sure plenty of the naive students turn up at the gala though.

We still don’t really know Corbyn’s true electoral appeal - the last election result I feel was largely driven by May’s incompetence rather than Corbyn’s appeal. I think a lot of people would hesitate putting that cross in the box if they thought Corbyn was actually -a realistic proposition and would be in a position to affect what *they* pay in tax. Having said that the Conservatives continue to self-destruct, so that factor is still present should an election happen imminently.

 

[bramling]

Accomplished?

As London Mayor

• he made London's housing shortage worse
• His handling of the riots was dreadful
  
• He bought water cannons that the police couldn't use
• Cable car
• Garden Bridge
• Estuary Airport

His record as Foreign Secretary wasn't great, a few gaffes for you

• Made a joke about the “dead bodies” getting in the way of businesses investing in Libya after its bloody civil war
  
• Made a diplomatic blunder over the British charity worker being held in a brutal Iran prison
  
• Managed to describe the entire continent of Africa as “that country”
  
• Compared traditional Maori greeting to a headbutt while on a tour of New Zealand
  
• Compared Francois Hollande’s attitude towards Brexit with a prisoner of war camp
  
• Caught on camera part-reciting a colonial poem in a Burmese temple before being stopped by an ambassador

He is not fit to be Prime minister.

Just remembered, he is also a coward. Day return to Kabul to avoid vote on 3rd runway, didn't resign post Chequers until after David Davis.

I think this sums up why there’s a lot of scepticism about Johnson taking over from May. In that sense I’d feel more comfortable with Rees-Mogg.

 

[SWTCommuter]

... or Mediocre Jake O'Grease-Smogg, the toff who loves this country so much he moved his business to Ireland...

His company's offices are in London and Singapore.
http://somersetcm.com/contact-us/

According to Rees-Mogg, they have recently opened a new fund in Dublin, not an office. Scroll through to 24 mins 50 secs in this video for the relevant conversation.

Do you have contrary evidence?

 

[Typhoon]

Just remembered, he is also a coward. Day return to Kabul to avoid vote on 3rd runway, didn't resign post Chequers until after David Davis.

So just the sort of person we want to make difficult decisions.

 

[DarloRich]

I’d value @DarloRich ’s take on this.

As one of the forum’s most bellicose contributors, and proud working class northerner, who believes labour has lost touch.

Firstly the Durham Miners Gala is a really good family day out. It is always fun and the refreshment flows. There is much more to it these days than politics and speeches however the marching of the colliery banners and brass bands is still an important "thing" in the north east and a big source of pride to those communities. The banners are first shown in the home village, then taken to Durham and marched through the streets, past the County Hotel ( where the VIP's view the parade) to the racecourse where speeches are made followed by a church service in the Cathedral. There is a fun fair on the racecourse and a good family atmosphere. The meet is often, but not always, addressed by the Labour leader of the day. The other speakers are lower level labour MP's, TUC types, union types, the local Labour MP & prominent lefties.

There has been a community movement in recent years to restore the banners for long defunct pits and even create them where none existed. This project benefited from lottery money aimed at improving social cohesion. There is, for obvious reasons, an anti Tory feeling throughout the day and especially in the speeches. That isnt Corbyn. That is years of getting screwed. As many posters may be unaware what a colliery banner looks like here are some examples:
http://collections.beamish.org.uk/search-results?query=union banner&searchType=archive

As for Corbyn: There is so much wrong with the man. The list grows day by day and would take far to long to list here. Some are mentioned here: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/shouldnt-vote-jeremy-corbyn/ but there are more.

I think my favorites are the support for his friends who are terrorists and murders, the facilitation of antisemitic views, the appearances on Press TV, the lies that he sorted out peace in NI his hatred of NATO and Western institutions, the hypocrisy about loyalty and his views on the EU.

I said when he was elected leader ( i didn't vote for him) that his own words, views, associations and past would be his undoing. Anyone who knew anything about Labour politics knew what Corbyn was like. He is a liability but his cult like clown army are now in firm control of the party and the mechanisms the party. Corbyn is the best tool the Conservatives have, despite their obvious problems and weak leadership, to ensure they remain in power. A half decent labour leader would have them on the ropes. Corbyn is 3rd in a who makes the best PM poll behind May and don't know!

I ask a simple question about the current Labour party: How, despite all the members and the magic granddad leadership are we going to attract middle England and Scotland to vote in enough numbers to return a Labour government?

where Corbyn gets my favour is that he has the courage of his convictions. Someone can probably prove me wrong but I don't think Corbyn has ever denied anything he has done

He often denies things. Then he goes away and has a think about it and then remembers something did actually happen but that he didn't know who the people were or that he didn't understand the meaning of the event or that he didn't actually say something that he did say then his clown army take to twitter to blame an MSM conspiracy against their hero!

 

[EM2]

What a dreadful state U.K. politics is in when we have no alternatives to these people!

There are plenty of alternatives on the red side but the issue is that any leadership contest is now dominated by the cult of Corbyn, and no-one else will get a sniff.
On the blue side, the party is so fundamentally split between Remainers and Leavers that you'll never get a consensus.

 

[eotw]

If the next election is in 2022, I doubt if Corbyn will still be in charge of Labour. At 72 he will be getting on a bit and will have finished purging the Blairites from the party.

I am a Labour voter and member and in both leadership recent elections have voted ABC*.

Not because of any of his policies (can't be worse than the insanity of austerity) or the fact that I dislike him (I do) but because he has too much baggage and alienates to many potential voters. Just reading the vitriol directed against Corbyn in a thread about Boris Johnson makes it clear he is un-electable.

One of the reason I dislike him is his hubris in believing he is electable.

*Anyone but Corbyn

 

[Typhoon]

Firstly the Durham Miners Gala is a really good family day out. It is always fun and the refreshment flows. There is much more to it these days than politics and speeches however the marching of the colliery banners and brass bands is still an important "thing" in the north east and a big source of pride to those communities. The banners are first shown in the home village, then taken to Durham and marched through the streets, past the County Hotel ( where the VIP's view the parade) to the racecourse where speeches are made followed by a church service in the Cathedral. There is a fun fair on the racecourse and a good family atmosphere. The meet is often, but not always, addressed by the Labour leader of the day. The other speakers are lower level labour MP's, TUC types, union types, the local Labour MP & prominent lefties.

There has been a community movement in recent years to restore the banners for long defunct pits and even create them where none existed. This project benefited from lottery money aimed at improving social cohesion. There is, for obvious reasons, an anti Tory feeling throughout the day and especially in the speeches. That isnt Corbyn. That is years of getting screwed. As many posters may be unaware what a colliery banner looks like here are some examples:
http://collections.beamish.org.uk/search-results?query=union banner&searchType=archive

Thank you one of the first positive and encouraging descriptions on this thread, it was all becoming very depressing. It is good to read that 'community' is alive and well in the north east rather than the one-area-is-much-like-another that pervades parts of the country.

Back to negative - the question of hypocrisy about loyalty. I have no problem with an MP voting against his/her party, they are, after all, elected to represent their constituents but if you are a habitual rebel, you cannot expect loyalty in response - a statement which I would have thought to be obvious even in N1. Both Corbyn and Johnson are, by their nature but for different reasons, disloyal which is why they are unsuited for any form of high office. The beef I have with Frank Field is not that he voted with the government in the EU bill but that he nominated Jeremy Corbyn for leader!

 

[Senex]

Corbyn is the best tool the Conservatives have, despite their obvious problems and weak leadership, to ensure they remain in power. A half decent labour leader would have them on the ropes.

And there's the huge constitutional problem. At precisely the time when a two-party, government and opposition, system requires there to be a strong opposition able properly to hold government to account, what we've got is Corbyn, his weak shadow cabinet, and a party that under his "leadership" can't decide what it's all about.

 

[DarloRich]

Back to negative - the question of hypocrisy about loyalty. I have no problem with an MP voting against his/her party, they are, after all, elected to represent their constituents but if you are a habitual rebel, you cannot expect loyalty in response - a statement which I would have thought to be obvious even in N1. Both Corbyn and Johnson are, by their nature but for different reasons, disloyal which is why they are unsuited for any form of high office. The beef I have with Frank Field is not that he voted with the government in the EU bill but that he nominated Jeremy Corbyn for leader!

agreed!

And there's the huge constitutional problem. At precisely the time when a two-party, government and opposition, system requires there to be a strong opposition able properly to hold government to account, what we've got is Corbyn, his weak shadow cabinet, and a party that under his "leadership" can't decide what it's all about.

Agreed - but given a chance to change the system we voted no. Will of the people and all that.......................

If the next election is in 2022, I doubt if Corbyn will still be in charge of Labour. At 72 he will be getting on a bit and will have finished purging the Blairites from the party.

I am a Labour voter and member and in both leadership recent elections have voted ABC*.

Not because of any of his policies (can't be worse than the insanity of austerity) or the fact that I dislike him (I do) but because he has too much baggage and alienates to many potential voters. Just reading the vitriol directed against Corbyn in a thread about Boris Johnson makes it clear he is un-electable.

One of the reason I dislike him is his hubris in believing he is electable.

*Anyone but Corbyn

Also agreed. I think only stubbornness and a refusal to give up is keeping me as a Labour member. I have come close to leaving this summer.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

well Jacob Rees-Mogg has gone on record today as saying that the PM has his full support... isn't that Tory code for "I want to be the next leader, but I need someone else, preferably a no-hoper to challenge the leader so I can look like the saviour of the party"?

 

[NSEFAN]

well Jacob Rees-Mogg has gone on record today as saying that the PM has his full support... isn't that Tory code for "I want to be the next leader, but I need someone else, preferably a no-hoper to challenge the leader so I can look like the saviour of the party"?

Yes Minister said it best. "You must get behind someone if you wish to stab them in the back"

 

[Typhoon]

Interesting slant.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/12/boris-johnson-never-prime-minister

 

[fowler9]

Regarding Rees-Mogg talking about the Irish Border and EU rules, I don't see it the same as some. The EU bending the rules for people who are members of or want to be members of the EU (When they think it will benefit the EU) are not in the slightest bit like bending the rules for a country that doesn't want to be in the EU and only hopes to benefit itself. Which other none EU countries should the EU bend the rules and have open borders with? Russia? Belarus?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Regarding Rees-Mogg talking about the Irish Border and EU rules, I don't see it the same as some. The EU bending the rules for people who are members of or want to be members of the EU (When they think it will benefit the EU) are not in the slightest bit like bending the rules for a country that doesn't want to be in the EU and only hopes to benefit itself. Which other none EU countries should the EU bend the rules and have open borders with? Russia? Belarus?

No..his point was this...during the Brexit "negotiations" the EU have repeatedly said "the rules are the rules. The rules cannot be bent!"
whilst the Maastricht treaty, in regards to setting up the Eurozone clearly states in the rules of the Eurozone that no Eurozone economy can ever be bailed out under ANY circumstances... yet, quite clearly, a number of countries HAVE been bailed out... therefore bending or breaking the rules...

His question, which the witness refused repeatedly to answer, was whether the EU rules are intransigent and immutable and can never be broken/ bent/ changed to suit the EU {as in Brexit} or whether the rules are there to be bent/ broken/ ignored when it suits the EU {as in the Eurozone financial crisis}

 

[fowler9]

No..his point was this...during the Brexit "negotiations" the EU have repeatedly said "the rules are the rules. The rules cannot be bent!"
whilst the Maastricht treaty, in regards to setting up the Eurozone clearly states in the rules of the Eurozone that no Eurozone economy can ever be bailed out under ANY circumstances... yet, quite clearly, a number of countries HAVE been bailed out... therefore bending or breaking the rules...

His question, which the witness refused repeatedly to answer, was whether the EU rules are intransigent and immutable and can never be broken/ bent/ changed to suit the EU {as in Brexit} or whether the rules are there to be bent/ broken/ ignored when it suits the EU {as in the Eurozone financial crisis}

We won't be in the EU. Why should they even consider bending the rules to suit a non member?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

We won't be in the EU. Why should they even consider bending the rules to suit a non member?

because it's in their own best interest? eg... IF there is a hard border between us and Eire.... what is that going to do to the Irish economy considering that the majority of goods that Eire exports to EU countries comes through the UK? because in our dealings with the other 27 EU countries we are a net IMPORTER?

In any case we ARE in the EU at the moment... and we wish to change our relationship... the EU bent/ broke/ disregarded the rules to bail out Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Eire... so on that basis the EU's insistence that "the rules are the rules and cannot be broken" ring very hollow...

 

[fowler9]

because it's in their own best interest? eg... IF there is a hard border between us and Eire.... what is that going to do to the Irish economy considering that the majority of goods that Eire exports to EU countries comes through the UK? because in our dealings with the other 27 EU countries we are a net IMPORTER?

In any case we ARE in the EU at the moment... and we wish to change our relationship... the EU bent/ broke/ disregarded the rules to bail out Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Eire... so on that basis the EU's insistence that "the rules are the rules and cannot be broken" ring very hollow...

Alright, I'm happy to accept that. Do the majority of the Republics exports cross the land border in to Northern Ireland or come by ship or aircraft in to the UK? If so a bit of wiggle room would be preferable. I still don't think you can directly compare it to bending the rules for countries that wish to remain members of the EU and contribute. If you are just talking about freight passing through the UK on its way to the rest of Europe and the world then it really doesn't have to come through the UK.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Alright, I'm happy to accept that. Do the majority of the Republics exports cross the land border in to Northern Ireland or come by ship or aircraft in to the UK? If so a bit of wiggle room would be preferable. I still don't think you can directly compare it to bending the rules for countries that wish to remain members of the EU and contribute. If you are just talking about freight passing through the UK on its way to the rest of Europe and the world then it really doesn't have to come through the UK.

hmmm so all those Nolan Transport lorries going through Wales on their way to the continent... after the UK leaves they can either:

a) get held up for 4 or 5 hrs at the Eire/ UK ferry crossing... and then held up for another 4 or 5 hrs at the UK/ France border.... or
b) get on a ferry direct to France {which I doubt exists at this moment in time} or
c) go by air {which begs the question... if that's a viable option... why isn't it sent by air already?}

The point is that the EU says we are "negotiating" but what we have seen so far is the UK saying "here are our proposals" and the EU saying "no"
The truth is the EU will do everything they can to try and convince us, the British public, that we've been very naughty children and must change our minds and do what our creepy uncle wants us to do.

How many countries have had elections/ referendums where the EU have disagreed with the outcome and they've been instructed to vote again?

So far, to my knowledge it's happened to Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Eire and {IIRC either the Netherlands or Denmark}

 

[mmh]

Regarding Rees-Mogg talking about the Irish Border and EU rules, I don't see it the same as some. The EU bending the rules for people who are members of or want to be members of the EU (When they think it will benefit the EU) are not in the slightest bit like bending the rules for a country that doesn't want to be in the EU and only hopes to benefit itself. Which other none EU countries should the EU bend the rules and have open borders with? Russia? Belarus?

There's a difference between a border of people, of labour and of goods. The non-EU members of the Common Travel Area already have "borderless" movement of people between outside the EU and EU via the UK and Ireland - the Channel Islands. The Canary Islands have a very similar position.

 

[fowler9]

Hmmmm. So what you guys want is control of our borders back except for one and you expect the EU to do the same because it eliminates a rather awkward problem for us.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Hmmmm. So what you guys want is control of our borders back except for one and you expect the EU to do the same because it eliminates a rather awkward problem for us.

no what I want is freedom of movement of goods and people but at the same time control over who gets to come into this country... tbh I blame Brexit solely on the shoulders of Angela Merkel and her ill-advised open invite to the "refugees"

 

[mmh]

Hmm. I voted to leave the EU, but had no desire to stop Irish citizens' right to travel and work in the UK and UK citizens' right to do travel and work in Ireland. That's an agreement that has nothing to do with the EU. Neither country wants, or is willing to change that. It's only a problem because people want it to be a problem, I'm afraid.

 

[fowler9]

no what I want is freedom of movement of goods and people but at the same time control over who gets to come into this country... tbh I blame Brexit solely on the shoulders of Angela Merkel and her ill-advised open invite to the "refugees"

Freedom of movement with control over who comes in is a contradiction you realise?

 

[fowler9]

Hmm. I voted to leave the EU, but had no desire to stop Irish citizens' right to travel and work in the UK and UK citizens' right to do travel and work in Ireland. That's an agreement that has nothing to do with the EU. Neither country wants, or is willing to change that. It's only a problem because people want it to be a problem, I'm afraid.

Can you show me where the ROI government is arguing with the EU that a hard border should not be put in place if we leave without an agreement. Remember the majority of Northern Ireland voted remain.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Freedom of movement with control over who comes in is a contradiction you realise?

how is it a contradiction? Freedom of movement has nothing to do with control of borders and immigration... fact is, under the current EU rules every single one of those refugees that were "invited" into Germany can, once granted citizenship, up sticks and move to the UK and there is NOTHING we can do about it... heck, under current rules the EU can FORCE us to take a quota of refugees or fine us for not doing so! This is where remainers get confused... freedom of movement and control of borders are NOT the same thing!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Can you show me where the ROI government is arguing with the EU that a hard border should not be put in place if we leave without an agreement. Remember the majority of Northern Ireland voted remain.

They're not allowed to argue one way or the other... they have to abdicate responsibility to the EU negotiators... whether the outcome harms their economy or does it good.... them's the rules...

 

[mmh]

Can you show me where the ROI government is arguing with the EU that a hard border should not be put in place if we leave without an agreement. Remember the majority of Northern Ireland voted remain.

Eh? I'm talking about the Irish/UK reciprocal right to travel/work. I thought I was quite clear that I thought this has nothing to do with the EU. Why do you think Ireland isn't in Schengen?

(Let's not go down the "the majority of a region voted blah" route again, it's unhelpful and in the case of Northern Ireland very misleading!)