Borders Railway - Now Open

[railjock]

What is said to be the projected total of all passenger usage from the existing rail terminus of Newcraighall from all the new stations to the new rail terminus of Tweedbank ?

Probably very busy out to Gorebridge as a commuter line from Edinburgh to/from Midlothian. Not so sure beyond that.

 

[CalumCookable]

Perhaps the projected income to be obtained from passenger usage from any new stations from Tweedbank to Carlisle, when set against the actual cost of line re-construction and subsequent annual costs of line maintenance on that specific section, could well be the reason why this will never happen.

I don't see how you can say it will *never* happen. The transport minister called it a "reasonable ambition". I'm not saying they're going to start planning for it as soon as the line to Tweedbank opens - and there are a few other places, like St Andrews and Leven, trying to join the queue for a rail link - but let's just wait and see. Consider that, 20 years ago, the electrification of the Midland Main Line was not considered value for money. Today, it is cheaper to do it than not do it, and it is being done. Things change.

Every recent re-opening in Scotland has been an overwhelming success.

Laurencekirk:

Speaking just before the first anniversary of the station re-opening the Transport Minister revealed that almost 64,000 passenger journeys have been made, well above the predicted 36,000.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...vels-exceed-expectations-on-first-anniversary

Alloa:

The return of rail services to Clackmannanshire has seen an overwhelming 400,000 passengers take advantage of the new Stirling Alloa Kincardine railway in its first year. Strong demand has seen passenger numbers outstrip initial forecasts of 155,000 users in its first year and has led to the introduction of new direct morning and evening commuter services from Alloa to Edinburgh.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine-Railway-first-anniversary

Airdrie-Bathgate (which for months was only partially operational due to poor weather):

New stations at Armadale (89,388), Blackridge (40,008) and Caldercruix (68,853) are all on target to meet their initial annual forecasts. The increased frequency and greater seating capacity have also helped boost usage at existing stations on the route with Bathgate (+4%), Uphall (+21%) and Livingston North (+12%) all showing increases in travel to and from Edinburgh. New direct journey opportunities have also delivered an average 14% increase in usage from intermediate stations on the route between Helensburgh and Edinburgh Waverley.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Airdrie-Bathgate-passenger-numbers-boost

Larkhall:

340,000 passengers travelling on this service in the first year, an increase of 53% more than projected.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...chive/story447.html+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Beauly:

The new rail service for Beauly ... has led to 75% of Beauly's commuters switching from road to rail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5187370.stm

I think I've made my point. Roll on Conon Bridge, Dalcross, Kintore, and the Waverley Line to Tweedbank.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Beauly:

Quote:

The new rail service for Beauly ... has led to 75% of Beauly's commuters switching from road to rail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...ds/5187370.stm

Uh??? Really? On a railway that sees just 11 trains each way per day ? I don't doubt the new service was a success but surely that figure is a typo?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't see how you can say it will *never* happen. The transport minister called it a "reasonable ambition". I'm not saying they're going to start planning for it as soon as the line to Tweedbank opens - and there are a few other places, like St Andrews and Leven, trying to join the queue for a rail link - but let's just wait and see. Consider that, 20 years ago, the electrification of the Midland Main Line was not considered value for money. Today, it is cheaper to do it than not do it, and it is being done. Things change.....I think I've made my point. Roll on Conon Bridge, Dalcross, Kintore, and the Waverley Line to Tweedbank.

Your comparison with the electrification of the Midland Main Line, noting the type of populous communities that exist there, with the "hoped for" line from Tweedbank to Carlisle is somewhat of a tenuous link to say the very least.

 

[Eagle]

Surely with modern traction it would become much quicker today...

The figures don't bear this out.

Edinburgh to Carlisle via Carstairs currently takes around 70 minutes (on a 125 mph unit, on a 100 mph unit it's more like 80). Edinbirgh to Tweedbank alone will take 55 minutes on a 100 mph unit, and that's considerably less than halfway to Carlisle. I can't see it being any less than two hours no matter how well you build it.

The Borders line, even if extended to Carlisle, will only ever go up to 100 mph (which can't be too different to what it was in BR days), because it's far too much work to get it higher than that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Uh??? Really? On a railway that sees just 11 trains each way per day ?

Yes, the trains happen to be concentrated around the peak hours. Hence lots of commuting. Hardly unbelievable.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting that the Glasgow-Edinburgh EGIP details have now come out and the Scottish Government is not just cutting the amount of line electrified but also a substantial amount of line improvements and services. Since the cost was going on NR's credit card anyway it appears the main motivation for the descoping wasnt the capital cost but the revenue cost of operating the services on the improved lines. They commisioned a report by a bus company (cant remember the name) to examine other transport mode alternatives (and to justify the axe) and naturally enough they found it would be cheaper to operate buses than trains.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the trains happen to be concentrated around the peak hours. Hence lots of commuting. Hardly unbelievable.

I also think the figures could well be correct. If the season ticket fares are competitive with the cost of taking the car into the city centre (and parking if relevant) than I would not be surprised if a lot of people switched from road to rail when the frequencies were improved to make commuting a realistic option.

If anyone used a bus to commute, it is also probable that the rail option provided a good time saving.

In fact, the 25% of people who choose to commute by road from Beauly probably only do so if their place of work is not convenient for the station, or they work shifts, or both!

 

[Eagle]

I also think the figures could well be correct.

In fact, for all the article tells us, it could be that there are eight people in Beauly who commute to the city centre and six of them switched to the train.

 

[ainsworth74]

In fact, for all the article tells us, it could be that there are eight people in Beauly who commute to the city centre and six of them switched to the train.

A quick bit of research indicates that around 50,000 people used Beauly in 2010/11 so I think we're safe from that kind of distortion Though I agree some sort of context would have been good.

 

[CalumCookable]

I find it amusing to see resistance to the notion of successful rail re-openings on rail enthusiast forum. Ah well.

Your comparison with the electrification of the Midland Main Line, noting the type of populous communities that exist there, with the "hoped for" line from Tweedbank to Carlisle is somewhat of a tenuous link to say the very least.

No it isn't. The populations served are smaller than those served by the West Coast Main Line, which was electrified first. See the connection?

I never even said it should re-open: all I was saying was that, while the population may not currently justify a railway line, that does not mean that will be the case forever. Or maybe it will, how the hell do I know, I don't even live anywhere near the thing and if it does re-open I will derive no personal benefit whatsoever.

In fact, for all the article tells us, it could be that there are eight people in Beauly who commute to the city centre and six of them switched to the train.

That article was from several years ago and since then Beauly station has experienced the rate of growth in passenger numbers common to near enough every other station in the country.

Yes, the trains happen to be concentrated around the peak hours. Hence lots of commuting. Hardly unbelievable.

I suspect it's less a case of the trains, by some unknown means, materialising before the astonished eyes of Beauly commuters and more a case of them being timetabled to run that way.

Its interesting that the Glasgow-Edinburgh EGIP details have now come out and the Scottish Government is not just cutting the amount of line electrified but also a substantial amount of line improvements and services. Since the cost was going on NR's credit card anyway it appears the main motivation for the descoping wasnt the capital cost but the revenue cost of operating the services on the improved lines. They commisioned a report by a bus company (cant remember the name) to examine other transport mode alternatives (and to justify the axe) and naturally enough they found it would be cheaper to operate buses than trains.

This interpretation ignores the fact that the increase in Edinburgh-Glasgow frequency would have resulted in the complete termination of direct trains to Glasgow on the Maryhill line. Such a move would probably be politically unacceptable.

And the electrification is not cut, it is delayed. And there is now a scheduled rolling programme of electrification of 100 track km per year from 2016 onwards.

 

[Eagle]

I find it amusing to see resistance to the notion of successful rail re-openings on rail enthusiast forum.

That'll be because some of us are realists (and as a forum I can say we do like to do the math on things). I don't see why being a rail enthusiast automatically makes you pro all reopenings.

 

[CalumCookable]

That'll be because some of us are realists (and as a forum I can say we do like to do the math on things). I don't see why being a rail enthusiast automatically makes you pro all reopenings.

I would further divide the group of realists into those who are pessimistic, such as your good self, and those who are optimistic. Hawick is a fair-sized town and it's not impossible to imagine a station there. The idea of the line taking logging traffic off the roads has also been thrown around. I did not express an opinion on the merits on the re-opening of the line between Tweedbank and Carlisle because I don't have the qualifications to make that judgement. I challenged the statement that it will undoubtedly always be closed and gave evidence, largely from the horse's mouth, to suggest that the methods used to calculate demand may be conservative. That's all.

 

[Eagle]

I would further divide the group of realists into those who are pessimistic, such as your good self,

Please don't dare make assumptions about me when you don't know me. I take very strongly to it.

(In fact. in this case you're actually wrong.)

 

[WatcherZero]

This interpretation ignores the fact that the increase in Edinburgh-Glasgow frequency would have resulted in the complete termination of direct trains to Glasgow on the Maryhill line. Such a move would probably be politically unacceptable.

And the electrification is not cut, it is delayed. And there is now a scheduled rolling programme of electrification of 100 track km per year from 2016 onwards.

Nope not delayed, postponed indefinetley, there are no plans whatsoever to do the cancelled work in the future. It wasnt just electrification that was cancelled, it was 30 seperate line or service improvement schemes mostly on the lines that are still being electrified.

 

[clc]

Its interesting that the Glasgow-Edinburgh EGIP details have now come out and the Scottish Government is not just cutting the amount of line electrified but also a substantial amount of line improvements and services. Since the cost was going on NR's credit card anyway it appears the main motivation for the descoping wasnt the capital cost but the revenue cost of operating the services on the improved lines. They commisioned a report by a bus company (cant remember the name) to examine other transport mode alternatives (and to justify the axe) and naturally enough they found it would be cheaper to operate buses than trains.

The cost may have been going on NR's credit card but the Scot Govt would have to meet the monthly repayments. They obviously did the sums and decided they could no longer afford it due to their budget being cut.

 

[CalumCookable]

Nope not delayed, postponed indefinetley, there are no plans whatsoever to do the cancelled work in the future. It wasnt just electrification that was cancelled, it was 30 seperate line or service improvement schemes mostly on the lines that are still being electrified.

I'm aware of the cuts to the grade separated junctions, Dalmeny chord etc, which is not ideal and I have been critical of it elsewhere. But the rolling programme of electrification post 2016 is a fact. Dunblane and Alloa will most likely be done eventually. I think it's Shotts and Whifflet that are being done first, though.

 

[dalmahoyhill]

Could it have any freight benefit?

I know that if it was extended to Carlisle, it could take some freight off the WCML if heading to around Edinburgh or north of the Central Belt (could avoid Waverley on the south Edinburgh avoiding line).

I went to a talk with the network rail PM and he said it had been discounted due to the gradients over riccarton. Freight can still go via dumfries and across glasgow to the central belt.

much of the design is being completed i understand. The scope includes laying the track with clearance for future electrification. So the single track is to be centred under arch bridges to avoid raising works. The problem of what to do at the small tunnel near stow was being optioneered. The tunnel floods when the river overtops the bridge to the north. Track lowering would make this worse.

 

[reb0118]

I too do hope that the line does get extended from Tweedback to Carlisle at some stage in the future. However I can see lots of reasons for this not happening - the biggest one is the cost of building it in the first place coupled with the lack of revenue expected due to scarcity of population en route.

Now if the line was in existence, however, then there would be additional benefits to the network as a whole re as a diversionary route in times of blockage elsewhere. The line would also act as a feeder route into both Edinburgh & Carlisle thereby creating new journey opportunities, and would thus also help social inclusion in the South Borders/North Cumbria area. This line would also bring inward investment to the area. (This is similar to the function played by the GSW line between Carlisle & Glasgow).

Now if this railway was to be built "on the cheap" but obviously to the high standards expected of a main line route - then this could be a winner?

My solution is this, and remember that when the line was originally built in the 1860's that in the main it was built by raw muscle power (horse & man) alone. The Victorians built many a great structure with little more than a few calculations, a pick, & a shovel!!

So, firstly, we have to organise large groups of labour on the cheap. There are various sources for this but I suggest using category C prisoners and the able bodied unemployed (known as the idle poor in Victorian Britain). Judges should be given the power to sentence convicts to "hard labour on the railways", and legislation should be passed to make it a condition that the idle unemployed should have to work for their money. (NB - I do not want to be seen to persecute hard working people who have worked previously but who find themselves unemployed through no fault of their own), this work would also be available to volunteers (who would be paid however) seeking new skills in civil engineering and a challenge. Heritage railway operators could also get in on the act by volunteering their time & expertise for future running rights on the reopenned route.

Secondly, we need to find people with the skills for the major civil engineering projects for a scheme of this size. I suggest using the armed forces engineering regiments as well as the engineering departments of the various colleges and universities that we have in this country - this work will provide sound practical experience for these soldiers/students.

Thirdly, we require qualified engineers to oversee the whole operation. Recently retired ones that are willing to give up some free time to this worthwhile enterprise should be sought. The line would not be handed over to the operating department until such times as stringent safety checks are carried out

I think this plan, which I worked out down the pub last night, could be a goer if the Government has the balls to change the legislation required. I feel this type of project could help install a sense of pride back into certain sectors of our society. The local communities would ultimately gain by being reconnected to the rail network with all the benefits mentioned above. The workers would benefit by receiving new skills & opportunities, and also some pride in giving something back to the community. Society in general would also benefit - benefits all round.

I would suggest that this and similar schemes are only suitable where there is no commercial reason for reopening a rail route (we would not want to use "free labour" on projects that would take jobs away from other workers). There should however be a reason for running services on the reopened line be they social, commercial or indeed both.

 

[Cable Car]

Prisoners and the unemployed to build the Borders Railways.

Would that be before or after a No vote in the 2014 referendum.

 

[CalumCookable]

So, firstly, we have to organise large groups of labour on the cheap. There are various sources for this but I suggest using category C prisoners and the able bodied unemployed (known as the idle poor in Victorian Britain). Judges should be given the power to sentence convicts to "hard labour on the railways", and legislation should be passed to make it a condition that the idle unemployed should have to work for their money.

Ooooh, controversial :P The UK government's recent "workfare" scheme - that gave work placements to benefit recipients - didn't go down too well.

 

[D1009]

The Borders line, even if extended to Carlisle, will only ever go up to 100 mph (which can't be too different to what it was in BR days), because it's far too much work to get it higher than that.

As I recall in BR days the line speed was around 55 mph.

 

[reb0118]

Ooooh, controversial :P The UK government's recent "workfare" scheme - that gave work placements to benefit recipients - didn't go down too well.

True, but that was really getting people to pick up litter on the cheap. My scheme is much, much more ambitious - to be fair it is more social engineering than civil engineering. Both the conscipts and volunteers would have a great sense of pride at the completion of the project. They could truly state "I built that - with my own hands"

I'm even thinking of volunteering myself!

 

[Cable Car]

I'm even thinking of volunteering myself!

Hope you get released soon.

 

[kylemore]

I too do hope that the line does get extended from Tweedback to Carlisle at some stage in the future. However I can see lots of reasons for this not happening - the biggest one is the cost of building it in the first place coupled with the lack of revenue expected due to scarcity of population en route.

Now if the line was in existence, however, then there would be additional benefits to the network as a whole re as a diversionary route in times of blockage elsewhere. The line would also act as a feeder route into both Edinburgh & Carlisle thereby creating new journey opportunities, and would thus also help social inclusion in the South Borders/North Cumbria area. This line would also bring inward investment to the area. (This is similar to the function played by the GSW line between Carlisle & Glasgow).

Now if this railway was to be built "on the cheap" but obviously to the high standards expected of a main line route - then this could be a winner?

My solution is this, and remember that when the line was originally built in the 1860's that in the main it was built by raw muscle power (horse & man) alone. The Victorians built many a great structure with little more than a few calculations, a pick, & a shovel!!

So, firstly, we have to organise large groups of labour on the cheap. There are various sources for this but I suggest using category C prisoners and the able bodied unemployed (known as the idle poor in Victorian Britain). Judges should be given the power to sentence convicts to "hard labour on the railways", and legislation should be passed to make it a condition that the idle unemployed should have to work for their money. (NB - I do not want to be seen to persecute hard working people who have worked previously but who find themselves unemployed through no fault of their own), this work would also be available to volunteers (who would be paid however) seeking new skills in civil engineering and a challenge. Heritage railway operators could also get in on the act by volunteering their time & expertise for future running rights on the reopenned route.

Secondly, we need to find people with the skills for the major civil engineering projects for a scheme of this size. I suggest using the armed forces engineering regiments as well as the engineering departments of the various colleges and universities that we have in this country - this work will provide sound practical experience for these soldiers/students.

Thirdly, we require qualified engineers to oversee the whole operation. Recently retired ones that are willing to give up some free time to this worthwhile enterprise should be sought. The line would not be handed over to the operating department until such times as stringent safety checks are carried out

I think this plan, which I worked out down the pub last night, could be a goer if the Government has the balls to change the legislation required. I feel this type of project could help install a sense of pride back into certain sectors of our society. The local communities would ultimately gain by being reconnected to the rail network with all the benefits mentioned above. The workers would benefit by receiving new skills & opportunities, and also some pride in giving something back to the community. Society in general would also benefit - benefits all round.

I would suggest that this and similar schemes are only suitable where there is no commercial reason for reopening a rail route (we would not want to use "free labour" on projects that would take jobs away from other workers). There should however be a reason for running services on the reopened line be they social, commercial or indeed both.

"There's nothing new under the Sun! As some ancient Greek said (and he probably stole it from some ancient Egyptian) It's all been done before - how do you think the Autobahnen were built!
The only difference is that the scheme was'nt thought up in a pub but rather a Bierkeller, probably in Munich in 1933!

 

[reb0118]

Out of interest how much of the line from Portobello Jn. to Tweedbank will be double track? I've heard (anecdotally) that it will be double from Portobello Jn to Gorebridge - additional platforms to be provided at Brunstane & Newcraighall - with a long dynamic loop further south.

Can any of the forum shed further light on the situation?

With regard to the service pattern I have heard that the current Fife - Newcraighall service will be extended to Gorebridge with an hourly stand alone Edinburgh - Tweedbank service (running limited stop between Edinburgh & Gorebridge).

The above are just rumours - however from industry insiders!

 

[transmanche]

My scheme is much, much more ambitious - to be fair it is more social engineering than civil engineering. Both the conscipts and volunteers would have a great sense of pride at the completion of the project. They could truly state "I built that - with my own hands"

The Bridge on the River Tweed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both the conscipts and volunteers would have a great sense of pride at the completion of the project. They could truly state "I built that - with my own hands"

I will take the matter of the "Conscripts" in isolation and ask you where this new-found sense of helping the community has suddenly come from, as many of these will have no understanding whatsoever what this can mean to them, based upon their own experiance of life.

 

[fegguk]

Out of interest how much of the line from Portobello Jn. to Tweedbank will be double track? I've heard (anecdotally) that it will be double from Portobello Jn to Gorebridge - additional platforms to be provided at Brunstane & Newcraighall - with a long dynamic loop further south.

Can any of the forum shed further light on the situation?

With regard to the service pattern I have heard that the current Fife - Newcraighall service will be extended to Gorebridge with an hourly stand alone Edinburgh - Tweedbank service (running limited stop between Edinburgh & Gorebridge).

The above are just rumours - however from industry insiders!

The promoters of the Bill were adamant that the service would be all stops to Tweedbank every 30 minutes ie an extension of the existing Newcraighall service. The dyamaic loops identified in the Bill were/are intended to make this service pattern optimal.

The promoters were not in favour of the separate hourly limited stop service to Tweedbank with half hourly all stops Waverley to Gorebridge. This was proposed by the Waverley Route Trust who had commissioned their own study with a view to speeding up the service to the Borders by cutting out the stops at the Northern end for the Tweedbank trains.

You can check out the Scottish Parliament committee’s minutes if you want to examine the arguments both parties put to the MSP’s. It’s quite interesting reading though it’s difficult to determine who was right. It boils down to train paths into Waverley and how long and where you put the double track sections. Half of the line will be double track though this may include existing lines over which the trains will run into Waverley

There has been some redesign since the bill was passed and we have been promised better than the 55 minutes projected in the bill. There may have been some back tracking on this as doubts have surfaced over trimming the length of the dynamic loops to cut costs. As alluded to in earlier posts locations of existing bridges and tunnels come into play here as it did with the Waverley route trusts plans.
Despite frequent reassurances to the contrary there still is a certain amount of belief here in the borders that the railway will be cancelled or terminated at Gorebridge.

 

[WatcherZero]

Now its emerged that the Scottish Government had to make the £340m cut to rail spending because they ran out of cash, they unsucessfully applied to ORR for a repayment holiday on £149m a year of Network Rail debt interest (£2.5bn of Network Rail Debt) that they underwrite after misbudgeting, the SNP blame the UK Government for cutting rail spending.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/rail-debt-repayment-row.1348052965

 

[railjock]

When can we expect an announcement on the start of the real delivery phase?