Bob Crow announces yet another rail strike

[ANorthernGuard]

In the real world out there thanks to the last Labour government taking away the Bank of England controls on the banks they were left to run riot. People were encouraged to spend other people's (ie the bank's) money using credit cards that were secured against assets that they didn't yet own (their houses). As a result the entire country is in hock. Gordon Brown didn't lose control as some have suggested, he never really had control in the first place over a massively strong economy that he inherited and about which his cohort Bliar had to finally admit that "we just got lucky". Meanwhile Bliar had commited us to an illegal war in Iraq and an unwinnable war in Afghanistan (history, it always comes back to bite you) that is bleeding us dry of money and youth. To gain more finances the mean son of unwed parents then went on a pensions raid which was of a size that put the crook Maxwell in the shade. Don't forget too that it was Bliar and his mob - no doubt urged on by his money grubbing wife and other lawyers on the make - who presed so hard for the Human Rights act to be introduced. How much has that cost in both money and more importantly, basic standards. The Tories privatisation of the railways doesn't come anywhere near the catastophic Labour sell-offs of the utility groups and airports to foreign companies that are mostly in debt themselves. That's just the tip of the national debt that we're in and the best a simpleton like Crow can come up with is calls for national strikes!
Like I said, he lives - like all socialists - in an airy fairy dream world.

hmmm last time I checked it was a WORLDWIDE recession, banks all over the planet are in it up to their necks (didnt thinl the bank of England controlled all banks lol), Iraq war I agreed with, Afghanistan I didnt!

I grew up in the 80's and saw the destruction of Industries on this island, simple reason Tories SCRAPED in was a typical cycle of Government not many governments serve 4 terms and people felt the need for a change, it showed how much faith people had in the tories when they had to make a coalition government up which the cracks have already began to show, if an election was called now the tories would not get in at the next election they wouldn't have a hope in hell, even the tories admit it, yes Labour made alot of Mistakes but then again so did the Tories in the 80's/90's

 

[GB]

Ive just read the RMT have rejected a 5.2% offer for network rail staff.

 

[scotsman]

Well, I'm a socialist and in my world people are struggling to exist while the Government cuts their benefits. Luckily this must be an "airy-fairy" world.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ive just read the RMT have rejected a 5.2% offer for network rail staff.

5.2% is a decent percentage offer, even I would admit that depends on the T&C of the deal as well though

 

[Greenback]

Yes, despite what the mass media would have us think, it's not necessarily all about the headline percentage figure!

 

[GB]

Here is the RMT circular in full

RAIL UNION RMT confirmed today that it has rejected an offer of 5.2% for Network Rail operations and customer services staff next year, plus RPI in 2012, and is holding further talks on improving the package next month.


RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:


“With VAT going up to 20% in January, power and other utilities bills going through the roof and expectations that inflation will continue to rise we are looking to make sure that we achieve a pay deal for Network Rail operational and customer services staff that protects and improves their standards of living in this time of economic and political instability.


“We hear daily about groups of workers who are being told to accept job cuts and the undermining of their pay and conditions and as far as RMT is concerned that is the point at which a strong trade union steps up to the plate to fight for its members interests.


“The turmoil on the railways in recent weeks has illustrated yet again the importance of having adequate numbers of well-trained and properly rewarded staff to cope with whatever is thrown at us.


“We will head back into talks with Network Rail early in the New Year with every intention of securing a pay deal for our members that fully recognises the vital contribution that they make to safe and secure rail travel in this country day in and day out.”

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Here is the RMT circular in full

I'm surprised that they want to get even more, heck all we want is a decent wage for the 27th/28th and can't even get that, 5.2% is a good offer as long as there are no changes in t&c

yes even someone who is for the unions has some common sense

 

[Clip]

Here is the RMT circular in full

vat is only going up by 2.5% so i make that a 2.7% raise in real terms. i cant see them trying to justify the utilities going up to as no one knows how much they will go up in the next year. And if its too much i think the regulator for each of them will be having words.

overall 5.2% seems very generous to me.

 

[Greenback]

The offer seems very reasonable to me. Obviously the union thinks they can get even more out of Network Rail, which we will all have to pay for.

 

[Aictos]

Is there actually anything wrong with the proposed NWR offer?

 

[Greenback]

ATW have not said they are applying to the courts. In fact they are confident of running a full service, apart from the Valley Lines.

 

[GB]

5.2% equates to roughly £1000 on a grade 1 salary. Certainly not to be sniffed at even with VAT going up. I don't know what strings are attached but they are usually made clear in the circulars after a rejection.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

5.2% equates to roughly £1000 on a grade 1 salary. Certainly not to be sniffed at even with VAT going up.

and we can't even get Northern to pay a decent Bank Holiday wage lol

 

[313103]

Now as we all live in the real world, what does 5.2% REALLY equate to?
What strings are attached to this pay rise.
VAT going up to 20%.
RPI currently stands at 4.7%
Food and Non Alcoholic beverages rose by record 1.6% between October and November.
The following link ay help to show that 5.2% which when said loud sounds a lot, take into consideration what is going on and you will find that in real terms it isnt even a payrise.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=19

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Now as we all live in the real world, what does 5.2% REALLY equate to?
What strings are attached to this pay rise.
VAT going up to 20%.
RPI currently stands at 4.7%
Food and Non Alcoholic beverages rose by record 1.6% between October and November.
The following link ay help to show that 5.2% which when said loud sounds a lot, take into consideration what is going on and you will find that in real terms it isnt even a payrise.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=19

I do agree however as Northern are in Dispute over a relatively small amount and they seem to be digging their heels in (which I lose money on) (and yes I did vote FOR action) I do struggle seeing a 5.2% rise as a bad deal

 

[trainophile]

ATW have not said they are applying to the courts. In fact they are confident of running a full service, apart from the Valley Lines.

So it's possible trains to Chester will be running normally on 27th then? Was thinking of quickly booking one for 28th while there are still cheapies available, but won't do that if 27th is going to be okay after all.

When will we know for certain? On 27th?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So it's possible trains to Chester will be running normally on 27th then? Was thinking of quickly booking one for 28th while there are still cheapies available, but won't do that if 27th is going to be okay after all.

When will we know for certain? On 27th?

ATW should not be affected by Northerns Strike action as long as you dont travel via Northwich/Altrincham you should be fine

 

[trainophile]

Sorry? I understood that ATW were striking in their own right, as well as NR.

 

[junglejames]

Actually Jungle James the union is there for its members, not for all workers, only workers who belong to said union!


Once again you have misread what i have said, and now trying to put words in my mouth. If you do not belong to union why should you benefit from any victory the union gets for its members? If you are that against a union then you should negotiate your own terms and conditions and if you get better T&Cs all power to your elbow.


No the company hasn't deemed that non union members deserve the same thing. The company pays everyone as they do not know who is in a union and who is not, so everyone gets the same payrise.



Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't! If you have a group of staff who are so anti union, would they want and expect the union to support their causes ?

First point Right they probably wouldnt stand stand by their side in court again why would a union represent workers who are not part of the said union? Yes they would slag off the company. Remind me what a decent union is ? A union that represents its membership or represents those not in a union? My subscription fees pays for my union to help me out with anything work related, it doesnt pay for me to subsidise those who choose not to join a union.

Isn't that what I've been saying throughout this thread? But i am now at a loss now you have said this here because your previous points were not alluding to this.

Again see my point above, however just saying I've spoken to the union often doesnt work like you think it does.

I am not moaning i am stating a point of fact, the fact being that Non union part of workforce should not benefit off the backs of others in order to have an easy life. We are either all in this together or we are all alone there is no half way on this issue.

I understand the exactly what your saying when it comes to striking. I have had to make this decision on more then one occasion so i completely understand what goes through peoples minds. Where the difference lies is if you feel that total solidarity will win the day whereas if the workforce are divided the management will step up its propaganda machine at those groups of staff who are wavering.

That is quite an analogy to make. Yes a strike depends on the ballot result, just like when i voted in the Government elections, i voted for a party that did not get in, so does that mean i should NOT accept anything the party/parties in power give me or take away from me? Everybody expects a trade union should be totally open and democratic and that is right, but i also expect the government to be likewise. No one in this country was offered a vote as to whether we should have a coalition government, yet we have one and we are all expected to accept it.

I know only to well that people do not agree with each other, if we did forums such as this would not exist. With regard choice see my above statement i don't have a government of choice. We all have choices to make throughout our lifetime some are hard, some are easy. When it comes to a ballot for industrial action it is always a difficult choice. However just like when I'm expected to accept a 'No' vote in this process when i have voted 'Yes' Then those that voted 'No' when a 'Yes' was declared i expect the same conclusion from them.


I wasn't making out the insinuation that non strikers who belong to union slag off the union or me, trust me they do! Same have had the balls to tell me in my face, that i can accept. Whether they believe it is the right thing to do or not is a decision they alone must make.

OK, yes i know the union is there mainly for its workers, but in certain circumstances, it will also slag off a company if they ill treated non union members. If they are not seen to be there (to an extent) for all workers, then they will lose some power in a sense.
When i say the union will not stand by non union members, i mean they will not give you advice. They will not speak personally with the company on your behalf and argue your case. That is what you are paying for partly.
I know this is what you were saying, but you were also saying more than this. However it is also true that if any non union members were ill treated, ie paid less money, then the union would no doubt kick up stink (yet you expect them to not get paid the same, does Mr Crow agree with you here)
My posts alluded to one thing, and one thing only. Non union members will not see the full benefits (like full backing, which we agree with), but they will see some, and the union will kick up stink if the company ill treats them. They will see the benefit of a payrise (you make me worry that you dont agree with this. In a sense you are weakening the union), and they will have the union going mad if something bad happens.
I have no problem with non union members receiving the same payrise. I expect, and want this (and yes i belong to a union). Its the big things they dont get. Like legal help and personal help.

I 100% agree with having unions. I would always belong to one. But I would never divide a company between union members and non union members. I believe everyone should see some of the benefits of a union being there.
No the non union members wont get to put their feelings forward, but they will see benefits of payrises. At the end of the day, you want it to seem like a united front. Your belief will in a sense divide the company.

So the next time your sitting around the table with the company, will you point out that you are not representing everyone, and give the company the names of people who you think should have to fight for their own payrise?
No, because you want a united front. Remember, they arent getting all the benefits that you are seeing. So there is no harm in this one little thing. In fact, it doesnt cost the union any extra if the non union members see this benefit. I bet you the union will make out it is representing everybody when it comes to payrises, because they want a stronger voice.

So, now see what im alluding to? This is what im getting at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and if you didnt split my post up into tiny little points like you have, it would be a lot more obvious what im getting at. The way you have done it makes it seem as if one second i think non union members should get everything, and then the next it looks like i contradict myself. This was never the case.
I said from the start they would not get the union alongside them in court, but the union will kick up a stink if the company treated anyone badly. It wont be personal service, but it will be a voice, just to make the company think a bit

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry? I understood that ATW were striking in their own right, as well as NR.

That was cancelled by the *ahem independant courts *ahem

 

[trainophile]

That was cancelled by the *ahem independant courts *ahem

Oh, thank you for that update. I detect a bit of a "political" angle in your post, but as I'm just a passenger I'll leave it to your colleagues to pick up!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Well, I'm a socialist and in my world people are struggling to exist while the Government cuts their benefits. Luckily this must be an "airy-fairy" world.

No-one in this country "struggles to exist". I was brought up in the fifties and sixties when lots of people really did struggle. As for benefits, I've worked continuously since I left school in December 1965 and all I've done is to pay taxes to keep lazy barstewards and ****less breeding machines in beer and cigarettes. How come people from eastern Europe come over here and find work yet town centres are full of unemployed and I get accosted by (invariably English and Scottish) beggers on trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

hmmm last time I checked it was a WORLDWIDE recession, banks all over the planet are in it up to their necks (didnt thinl the bank of England controlled all banks lol), Iraq war I agreed with, Afghanistan I didnt!

I grew up in the 80's and saw the destruction of Industries on this island, simple reason Tories SCRAPED in was a typical cycle of Government not many governments serve 4 terms and people felt the need for a change, it showed how much faith people had in the tories when they had to make a coalition government up which the cracks have already began to show, if an election was called now the tories would not get in at the next election they wouldn't have a hope in hell, even the tories admit it, yes Labour made alot of Mistakes but then again so did the Tories in the 80's/90's

The destruction of British industry started before the 1980s. If you grew up in the 1980s you're too young to have known the absolute shambles that this country was in during the 1970s. Trafalgar Square full of uncollected rubbish, bodies unburied, 22.5% inflation, union leaders trooping in and out of Downing Street dictating policy. And the most tragic of all which was the destruction of the education system by the driven ideologies of the left. Read your history young person.

 

[scotsman]

No-one in this country "struggles to exist". I was brought up in the fifties and sixties when lots of people really did struggle.

Well, that's untrue. You should meet some of the poor (as in unlucky) people who live a few miles from me. Or, even better, go to the East End of Glasgow where my parents lived when they were young. Then you'll see that plenty of people struggle to exist, people who genuinely struggle to find a job and have to live off JSA.
The same people who are trying to do the best for their children.

As for benefits, I've worked continuously since I left school in December 1965 and all I've done is to pay taxes to keep lazy barstewards and ****less breeding machines in beer and cigarettes.

That's an incredibly intolerant approach to take. People DO struggle to get jobs. People DO have health issues which stop them working. People who want

How come people from eastern Europe come over here and find work yet town centres are full of unemployed and I get accosted by (invariably English and Scottish) beggers on trains?

People don't always live in the areas where there is work. Of course there will always be the minority who will not work, even when they are capable of it.

 

[Clip]

Now as we all live in the real world, what does 5.2% REALLY equate to?
What strings are attached to this pay rise.
VAT going up to 20%.
RPI currently stands at 4.7%
Food and Non Alcoholic beverages rose by record 1.6% between October and November.
The following link ay help to show that 5.2% which when said loud sounds a lot, take into consideration what is going on and you will find that in real terms it isnt even a payrise.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=19

That actually equates to a massive payrise the likes of which i dont think any other body will get this year... Even ANortherguard who is going through strife with his latest agrees that it is a healthy offer to them




Just what the hell do you want? 10% ? 15%? just what do you want ??

and this is why i said earlier that some people just will never be happy.

can i ask you why that you agree to Mr Crow being on over £100K a year whilst you slog it out for less then a third(maybe) of that, yet your quite happy to follow what he says(right or wrong) and are prepared to lose money by going out on strike to get just a little bit more?

when i worked for NR I actively encouraged my colleagues and staff - union or otherwise to take the old 4.5 % increase and 1 hour reduction in working hours - yet the rep was telling us it was bad and nearly had them on his side....The one thing the rep never told them is that they would lose a days pay if they went on strike.

I bet you can guess what happened..

 

[313103]

That actually equates to a massive payrise the likes of which i dont think any other body will get this year... Even ANortherguard who is going through strife with his latest agrees that it is a healthy offer to them




Just what the hell do you want? 10% ? 15%? just what do you want ??

and this is why i said earlier that some people just will never be happy.

can i ask you why that you agree to Mr Crow being on over £100K a year whilst you slog it out for less then a third(maybe) of that, yet your quite happy to follow what he says(right or wrong) and are prepared to lose money by going out on strike to get just a little bit more?

when i worked for NR I actively encouraged my colleagues and staff - union or otherwise to take the old 4.5 % increase and 1 hour reduction in working hours - yet the rep was telling us it was bad and nearly had them on his side....The one thing the rep never told them is that they would lose a days pay if they went on strike.

I bet you can guess what happened..

I am not going to disect this as i am tired all i will say is 5.2% - 4.6%= 0.6%
so yes its a massive pay increase! The fact that 2010 is nearly out does mean no one will be getting a higher payrise.

Actually it is a little higher to what im getting in April. RPI plus 0.5% or 2.5% which ever is greater. All this is because the company though the RPI index would be lower then 3%.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Many passengers/customers of the rail industry will get little or no pay rise for the Xth year.
Mine is the second of a two year deal and I will lose out on the RPI factor, THATS LIFE!!!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No-one in this country "struggles to exist". I was brought up in the fifties and sixties when lots of people really did struggle. As for benefits, I've worked continuously since I left school in December 1965 and all I've done is to pay taxes to keep lazy barstewards and ****less breeding machines in beer and cigarettes. How come people from eastern Europe come over here and find work yet town centres are full of unemployed and I get accosted by (invariably English and Scottish) beggers on trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The destruction of British industry started before the 1980s. If you grew up in the 1980s you're too young to have known the absolute shambles that this country was in during the 1970s. Trafalgar Square full of uncollected rubbish, bodies unburied, 22.5% inflation, union leaders trooping in and out of Downing Street dictating policy. And the most tragic of all which was the destruction of the education system by the driven ideologies of the left. Read your history young person.

It was the Tories who cut funding to the schools in the 80s/90s, as stated Labour have made mistakes, the Tories have always been for the well off & rich in society, they always will be, I have always despised them and always will, I used to have respect for the Lib-Dems but that went when the coalition was formed, but looking at the papers even they are wondering why Clegg was adament a Coalition was the best thing for this country

 

[The Barlow Boy]

It was the Tories who cut funding to the schools in the 80s/90s, as stated Labour have made mistakes, the Tories have always been for the well off & rich in society, they always will be, I have always despised them and always will, I used to have respect for the Lib-Dems but that went when the coalition was formed, but looking at the papers even they are wondering why Clegg was adament a Coalition was the best thing for this country

Who-ever put the asterisks in ****less should learn that ****less means careless or irresponsible.

 

[GB]

The one thing the rep never told them is that they would lose a days pay if they went on strike

...and the bonus entitlement which can be upto £1200

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Who-ever put the asterisks in ****less should learn that ****less means careless or irresponsible.

sounds like every government for the last 30 years then lol