Boarding a train without a ticket - but with fair reason

[yorkie]

So then, why has ATOC not made sure that
a) all the TOC's understand this rule
b) enforce that they abide by it.

Why don't they do that for all rules? There are so many of them!

Some possible reasons...
1) It's not in their interest to (they want people to pay more if they can get away with it)
2) They can't be bothered
3) They don't see it as their job to do that

I think we need to get a list of rules that are worded in the passengers favour, yet are often broken by TOCs, and we need to campaign to get all TOCs to be made aware of what the rules actually say. But don't expect any help from ATOC in doing this.

 

[clagmonster]

I quite agree with what Yorkie has posted, if there are no facilities to purchase tickets at the station where you began your journey, then you should be able to buy on board, although if there is no ticket inspection, either due to short journey time or the train being busy, or most likely a combination of both this should carry over to sunsequent train on the journey, which is my interpretation of KWVR45's quote from the NRCoC. I do agree, however, that in cases where there is a long connection time, it would be more reasonable to expect passengers to buy at the interchange station, but then when writing such conditions it would be difficult to draw a line.
Now a question. Does anyone know Northern's policy on this when it comes to split tickets. In the near future, I will be travelling from Burley Park, interchanging at Leeds intending to buy a pair of split tickets, with the split being at an intermediate calling point on my second train. Both trains are operated by Northern. Burley Park is unstaffed, as far as I know there is no TVM there, but even if it is it would only be able to sell my first ticket. In the quite likely event that the guard doesn't get round to sell me a ticket (I will minimise this risk by boarding close to the guard, most probably at the back of the train) and I don't get time to use the excess fare window at Leeds, which is possible because it is only something around a 10-15 minute connection, would the guard be obliged to sell me both tickets with a YP discount? Also, would the first guard, or the excess fares window all be obliged to sell me both tickets? If they sold me just the first one, would I be able to buy my second ticket with discount on the train, provided I asked the first time he checked tickets, which would almost certainly before the station where I change tickets?. Thanks for any responses.

 

[yorkie]

You are entitled to a combination. I'd say the guard should do it, but they may not want to because it means other passengers may not get served, however I do not know if they are obliged to offer it or not. If they refuse to, then I'd say the next train (or excess window, if there is sufficient time to go there without delaying your journey) should be obliged to do it. I think this needs clarifying.

Certainly if the conductor is under the same obligations as the ticket office, then they are obliged to. I'm just not sure that they do have the same obligations or not.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From experience of people's comments when getting on TPE trains, in many cases Northern Guards do not seem to sell a combination of tickets. For example, yesterday I did a ticket check after Leeds going to York. In the first doorway were 3 girls all holding £10.50 for a CDR from Leeds to York. Now in theory they wanted tickets from Leeds so I should sell them the SDR at £13.30. Upon questioning they said they had come in by Northern train from Ravensthorpe and had used there West Yorkshire Student permits to get half fare for that leg of the journey, but now travelling outside West Yorkshire they had to pay Adult fare. They were perfectly keen to pay, and showed their Ravensthorpe to Leeds child CDRs, but said to me that they had asked on the train and the staff had told them he could only sell one ticket for that part of the journey and wasn't able to sell tickets for the next leg of the journey. This is of course complete rubbish - he could quite easily do it, as I have done many times - but I fear simply couldn't be bothered. This is not uncommon.

As a matter of interest I sold them CDRs as they appeared they had genuinely made an effort and had the money ready.

As a further note to anyone buying tickets on Northern trains - seemingly especially the Leeds North West triangle - always check the restrictions before you buy your ticket. The majority of on train staff selling tickets round there appear completely incapable of looking at the ticket restrictions listed on the Avantix and just sell the off-peak return regardless of time of day. The number which crop up on invalid peak time trains towards Manchester is astonishing.
Via

 

[hairyhandedfool]

National Conditions of carriage says.....

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because
the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start
your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel
that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is
reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these
circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had
bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will
be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel

In this instance I would say you can get it on the train, ideally the first one, but if not, the second one, However if you have a long connection at, or frequent service from, Leeds you might be expected to do it before you board the second train. If your ticket was split at Leeds it would be a different answer.

 

[furryfeet]

National Conditions of carriage says.....
you might be expected to do it before you board the second train

But again, this is open to interpretation

It needs a concrete rule in the NCOC that defines clearly to the passenger what they are allowed to do.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

National Conditions of carriage says.....

In this instance I would say you can get it on the train, ideally the first one, but if not, the second one, However if you have a long connection at, or frequent service from, Leeds you might be expected to do it before you board the second train. If your ticket was split at Leeds it would be a different answer.

That quote is from the "Where the full range of tickets is not available" section. Again it is open to interpretation. The key bit here is "If you cannot buy a ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you make at least part of the journey...". But what happens if there is no ticket or Pertis machine either?

In that case condition 2 is more applicable. Condition 2 makes no reference to "as soon as is reasonably practical". It says as quoted previously - ie Before travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the trains you intend to use and the journey you intend to make, unless, at the station where you started your journey, there is a) no ticket office, and b) no working ticket machine and c) no working pertis machine, then it says "...you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey". There is no reference in that condition to doing it as soon as possible, going to hunt out the Guard, wasting time at an interchange or anything else that has been mentioned previously. By its wording, condition 3 applies to stations which have a ticket or pertis machine but cannot sell the ticket you want. This would no doubt stem from the original quickfare machines which generally only sold local tickets. The newer versions will of course sell pretty much anything.

Therefore, unless someone introduces a new clause which says that you must get the ticket at the first opportunity - including interchange stations - then I'm afraid, as I see it, if you get on at an unstaffed station, with no ticket office and no working machines then there is no obligation to comply with all these supposed rules quoted previously.

 

[barrykas]

Therefore, unless someone introduces a new clause which says that you must get the ticket at the first opportunity - including interchange stations - then I'm afraid, as I see it, if you get on at an unstaffed station, with no ticket office and no working machines then there is no obligation to comply with all these supposed rules quoted previously.

Caveat: Except in a Penalty Fares Area, where the back of a Permit to Travel (where available) quite clearly says, "This permit authorises the holder to travel during one journey from the station named and on the date shown providing that it is exchanged promptly for a valid travel ticket and any balance of fare due is paid at the first opportunity and in any case within TWO hours of the time stamped thereon."

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Caveat: Except in a Penalty Fares Area, where the back of a Permit to Travel (where available) quite clearly says, "This permit authorises the holder to travel during one journey from the station named and on the date shown providing that it is exchanged promptly for a valid travel ticket and any balance of fare due is paid at the first opportunity and in any case within TWO hours of the time stamped thereon."

Cheers,

Barry

But you can only get a Permit to Travel from a working Permit to Travel machine. Clause 2 applies when there is no open ticket office AND no working ticket machine AND no working Permit to Travel machine. You cannot get a Permit to Travel from a non-existent or non working machine - so it is not a caveat, merely a case where clause 3 applies.

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks for your responses so far. I have been told on another message board that there is apparantly a TVM at Burley Park these days, so assuming it is working I will obviously buy my first ticket from that. Obviously though, this won't sell me the second ticket. I assume that this won't affect my ability to buy the second ticket, either from one of the guards or the excess fares window at Leeds. Obviously I will make every effort to buy it at the earliest opportunity.
Hairyhandedfool, the interchange is a little over 10 minutes at Leeds, onto an hourly service. I am planning on meeting freinds on the train, so waiting an hour to allow me to get the second ticket would not be desirable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....But what happens if there is no ticket or Pertis machine either?

In that case condition 2 is more applicable. Condition 2 makes no reference to "as soon as is reasonably practical". It says as quoted previously - ie Before travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the trains you intend to use and the journey you intend to make, unless, at the station where you started your journey, there is a) no ticket office, and b) no working ticket machine and c) no working pertis machine, then it says "...you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey". There is no reference in that condition to doing it as soon as possible, going to hunt out the Guard, wasting time at an interchange or anything else that has been mentioned previously. By its wording, condition 3 applies to stations which have a ticket or pertis machine but cannot sell the ticket you want. This would no doubt stem from the original quickfare machines which generally only sold local tickets. The newer versions will of course sell pretty much anything.

Therefore, unless someone introduces a new clause which says that you must get the ticket at the first opportunity - including interchange stations - then I'm afraid, as I see it, if you get on at an unstaffed station, with no ticket office and no working machines then there is no obligation to comply with all these supposed rules quoted previously.

My first post (page 1) was in reference to where there is no machine or ticket office, where I state that the NCoC is loosely worded at best. The post you have quoted from was in relation to Clagmonster's post where he posed a question of when there is no ticket office, the available machine can't issue the full range of tickets and the ticket required is not one it can do. My apologises if this wasn't clear.

Furryfeet - I believe common sense is required when assessing what is "as soon as reasonably practicable". The passenger and guard should be able to work out where it is reasonably practicable to seek a ticket office/excess window between trains. A 15 minute connection at Salford Crescent is very different to a 15 minute connnection at Manchester Piccadilly.

Clagmonster - I would say the connection at Leeds would not allow a reasonable opportunity to visit the ticket office in this case, thus you should be able to buy it on board the train.

 

[googolplex]

Thanks for your responses so far. I have been told on another message board that there is apparantly a TVM at Burley Park these days, so assuming it is working I will obviously buy my first ticket from that. Obviously though, this won't sell me the second ticket. I assume that this won't affect my ability to buy the second ticket, either from one of the guards or the excess fares window at Leeds. Obviously I will make every effort to buy it at the earliest opportunity.
Hairyhandedfool, the interchange is a little over 10 minutes at Leeds, onto an hourly service. I am planning on meeting freinds on the train, so waiting an hour to allow me to get the second ticket would not be desirable.

If there is a TVM at Burley Park, it might be worth checking to see if it does ToD, as then you could get buy your second ticket online and collect it there, saving you any worry about the guards not following the rules.
Of course ideally you wouldn't have to, and you could guarantee the guard would sell you the ticket you want....

 

[Fishnchipsrule]

I don't think you can, its a bog standard northern one from what my mate say's. will take a bus ride there at some point from college at lunch and have a look!!!

 

[yorkie]

On a related note, I bought an Off Peak return to Manchester, which is only a little over half the price to Liverpool, at York station from a ticket machine, and on board TPE I bought a Off Peak Day return from Manchester to Liverpool. This saves around 25%! The guard was friendly and helpful but he did say they are "not supposed to" do this. I asked between York and Leeds over an hour in advance. Clearly, both I and the guard thought this was sensible and we agreed that the York - Liverpool fare is crazy but I think we need to find out what TOCs are saying to guards that they are, and aren't meant to do and scrutinise very closely this training to ensure it matches the NCoC.

I think the TOCs are effectively attempting to committ fraud every day by overcharging. It's then down to the guard's discretion.

This needs to stop!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

We are told that if someone gets on at a staffed station - even if they have come in on a connection from an unstaffed station - then we
must sell them a full price ticket, as they should have got their ticket at the staffed station as they changed trains. This is clearly nonsense but that is it. As regards selling tickets in advance as per your request above we have no clear guidance, but cannot see why it shouldn't be done. It is quite obvious that the passenger is not out to defraud and has offered to pay well in advance. If someone did that, then waited till after Manchester to ask then it is a different matter as he has already had the chance since he joined the train to do something about it.

 

[nedchester]

We are told that if someone gets on at a staffed station - even if they have come in on a connection from an unstaffed station - then we
must sell them a full price ticket, as they should have got their ticket at the staffed station as they changed trains. This is clearly nonsense but that is it. .

It would seem therefore that TPE are breaking NCoC then? Not blaming you as it would appear that you have offered this to passengers in the past. I assume that this is a 'new' instruction after you made enquiries.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It would seem therefore that TPE are breaking NCoC then? Not blaming you as it would appear that you have offered this to passengers in the past. I assume that this is a 'new' instruction after you made enquiries.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure if it is an instruction. We get very little - if any -guidance on these matters. They seem to just leave it down to individuals. The advice mentioned above is what the Revenue Protection team will say to you if you ask their comments or advice.

 

[Adamtorbyaexpres]

I have to get on the train without a ticket because there is no ticket machine at starcross!

 

[Bristol Rover]

Is there anyway of attaching scans to the forum? I would like to share the responses of First/Cross Country.

 

[Mojo]

Click 'Post reply' and underneath the box click 'Manage Attachments.'

 

[Bristol Rover]

Thanks.

Here they are.

 

[Mojo]

I think you really ought to take this further as the responses are clearly unacceptable.

Interesting XC claim they only call at staffed stations, this is clearly untrue.

 

[Bristol Rover]

I intend to - I'll wait a couple of days and take on board any suggestions people offer on here.

What unmanned stations do XC call at?

 

[yorkie]

That's wrong. Complain!

 

[Mojo]

What unmanned stations do XC call at?

Patchway & Filton Abbey Wood are two I can think of, and there are a number of stations in the South West that XC services call at when they become unstaffed.

 

[yorkie]

I intend to - I'll wait a couple of days and take on board any suggestions people offer on here.

What unmanned stations do XC call at?

Here's one example
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/alm/details.htm
Staffing Hours
Monday-Friday 06:30-13:00
Saturday 06:30-13:00
Sunday 10:20-21:30

Outside these times the ticket office is unmanned.

 

[nedchester]

That's wrong. Complain!

Agree you should not be disadvantaged because the station was unmanned.

 

[gingerheid]

I think it would be possible to present this to local papers in such a way as to get them suitably outraged, especially if fGW are cutting or have recently cut staff from a station or station opening hours.

The idea that customers should have to pay extra because of their cost cutting is disgraceful. The idea that passengers should be made to endure extra suffering just because they can't run a proper reliable service just adds insult to injury.

In any event, if someone dug their heels in and demanded to pay the proper fare but refused to pay the full fare, they'd have absolutely no hope of a successful prosecution. It would be clear that the passenger's intent was to carry on a journey without being delayed as he was entitled so to do, not that he was trying to fare evade.

 

[yorkie]

I think it would be possible to present this to local papers in such a way as to get them suitably outraged, especially if fGW are cutting or have recently cut staff from a station or station opening hours.

Agreed.

The comparison is quoted below:-

FGW say "(you) should buy one at the earliest opportunity. In your case this would have been at Bristol Temple Meads"

this clearly suggests you should miss your booked connection.

NCoC say "Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey."

it is not "reasonable" to miss your booked connection just because the guard didn't come through. ATOC have confirmed that is not "reasonable" so the issue is, are FGW unaware of the NCoC terms? or are FGW in disagreement with them? or simply have a different definition of what is "reasonable"?

The idea that customers should have to pay extra because of their cost cutting is disgraceful.

In any event, if someone dug their heels in and demanded to pay the proper fare but refused to pay the full fare, they'd have absolutely no hope of a successful prosecution. It would be clear that the passenger's intent was to carry on a journey without being delayed as he was entitled so to do, not that he was trying to fare evade.

I agree, but the problem is the guard may refuse payment of the "correct" fare and then ask for your name and address for not paying. The guards have a lot of power and I do fear that if they did this, they could then deny that the customer offered to pay the true fare, and then get the courts to persue the customer for refusing to pay. I'd want witnesses if I was to do that!!!!

Of course, in reality very few guards will not issue a discounted ticket in these circumstances and will correctly apply the NCoC. Indeed I witnessed it only yesterday on TPE where the (friendly and helpful) guard did not suggest the customer was doing anything wrong at all.

 

[gingerheid]

I agree, but the problem is the guard may refuse payment of the "correct" fare and then ask for your name and address for not paying. The guards have a lot of power and I do fear that if they did this, they could then deny that the customer offered to pay the true fare, and then get the courts to persue the customer for refusing to pay. I'd want witnesses if I was to do that!!!!

True; and fGW's history as an operator is one run with a problem of systematic dishonesty. They should have had the franchise taken off them for that; if just as a warning to others.