Boarding a train without a ticket - but with fair reason

[Bristol Rover]

I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice on a situation I found myself in a couple of weeks ago.

I boarded a local service from Bedminster to Temple Meads, with the intention of connecting with a service to Cheltenham. Bedminster is an unmanned station, with no ticket machine or permit to travel machine.

Upon boarding the local First Great Western train, there was no sign of a conductor, and I arrived into Temple Meads without a ticket. The service was about 15 minutes late, and I had to rush to connect with the Cross Country service. So I had had no reasonable opportunity to board the Cross Country train with a ticket.

The Cross Country ticket conductor did sell me the fare I wanted (cheap day return, railcard discount), but he informed me that he was doing me a great favour by not insisting on charging the full undiscounted fare. I was very much surprised by this, since as I have explained, I could not reasonably have been expected to have bought a ticket at any stage of my journey so far. His reply was that I ought to have bought a ticket at Bristol Temple Meads (a manned station), and if this meant missing the connecting train, so be it.

I asked two other Railway staff (ticket vendors at Cheltenham and then back at Bristol) on whether the Cross Country ticket conductor was correct, and they said that he was.

I explained the situation to them, and while they said they sympathised with the scenario, I could have been charged the full fare and had no argument with it.

Surely this is absolutely disgraceful?

The implication is that, if an initial train from an unmanned station is late, forcing the passenger onto a connecting train without a ticket, then the passenger is the one that is punished - either through:
a) A fare several times more expensive than the one he/she is entitled to, or,
b) Missing their intended train and thus postponing business or serious inconveniencing themselves

Does anyone with a good knowledge of the system have any thoughts on this? I can't find anything in the Passenger's Charter to justify Cross Country's position, but nor anything to defend mine.

I wrote a letter to both Cross Country and First Great Western asking for their position on this circumstance, but their replies were either an embarrassing robotic reply (First) or "it's not our fault, it's your problem" (Cross Country). I can post a scan of the replies if requested.

I would be most interested on people's thoughts on this matter.

 

[devon_metro]

Bristol Temple Meads has a minimum connection time, therefore you should leave that time (15 mins iirc) between making connections and that should leave you time to get a ticket.

Obviously its not ideal but such is life!

 

[eos]

Send another letter , but this time to the Chief Executive, making it clear that the 'robotik' response is unaccepatble , and mark it personal, for his attention. Make sure that a copy is sent to the Railway Press, and a copy to your MP and another to Lord Adonis. That should make sure it at least gets past the word processed answers- just as I am doing to XC after an abysmally poor train service from Manchester tonight, where the Train Manager was apparently super-glued to a seat in First Class- except at station stops, whilst the rest of the train was so overcrowded that numbers of fare paying passengers could not even board. The couple I felt sorry for, with one child in arms, and a second in a pram , trying to board at Stafford where station staff, tried to shoehorn enough space for them to stand. Without success, they had to wait another hour for the next train. The TM less than a coach length away, kept First Class that way, for himself and four passengers, failed to do a single ticket check, or attempt to alleviate any of the overcrowding.

 

[moonrakerz]

Send another letter , but this time to the Chief Executive, making it clear that the 'robotik' response is unaccepatble , and mark it personal, for his attention. Make sure that a copy is sent to the Railway Press, and a copy to your MP and another to Lord Adonis. That should make sure it at least gets past the word processed answers- just as I am doing to XC after an abysmally poor train service from Manchester tonight, where the Train Manager was apparently super-glued to a seat in First Class- except at station stops, whilst the rest of the train was so overcrowded that numbers of fare paying passengers could not even board. The couple I felt sorry for, with one child in arms, and a second in a pram , trying to board at Stafford where station staff, tried to shoehorn enough space for them to stand. Without success, they had to wait another hour for the next train. The TM less than a coach length away, kept First Class that way, for himself and four passengers, failed to do a single ticket check, or attempt to alleviate any of the overcrowding.

Same guy was on the 1920 SWT W'loo to Exeter/Bristol last Saturday !

 

[yorkie]

The implication is that, if an initial train from an unmanned station is late, forcing the passenger onto a connecting train without a ticket, then the passenger is the one that is punished - either through:
a) A fare several times more expensive than the one he/she is entitled to, or,
b) Missing their intended train and thus postponing business or serious inconveniencing themselves.

No, this is not the case. This is a myth held by some Basil Fawlty-types. Someone contacted ATOC to clarify this and they confirmed that it is NOT the case that you must delay yourself in order to get a discounted ticket.

The issue over connectional allowances as mentioned by devon_metro has not been clarified. I have my own views on that but until it is clarified I won't comment. However if your train was around 15 minutes late, then you probably had an official connection anyway? In which case that it's not an issue in this case.

 

[furryfeet]

what IS the official statement from ATOC on this ?

This has been touched on before in previous threads but no-one has stated the definitive answer. It sounds like different TOC's are bending the rules to suit themselves and punish the passenger.
From those previous threads I seem to remember that First Trans-Pennine only refused to sell one discounted ticket on-board IF one has walked past an open booking office
Now clearly this is not the case if one started the journey
a) the booking office was shut
b) the station was unmanned as stated above.

This kind of thing is a deterrent to travel, since one could easily be ripped off for no fault of their own.

 

[Bristol Rover]

Thanks for the replies.

Yorkie - I don't entirely understand your reply. Are you saying the Train Manager on Cross Country is one of these 'Basil Fawlty' types (whatever that means?) and that he was incorrect to point out that he could have charged me the full fare? If this is the case, it's a very widely held myth, since the two other staff, and their manager at Temple Meads, confirmed the Cross Country Ticket Conductor's position as valid.

I am sure this will happen again, since the local connecting service is often late. What can I do if the Train Manager does insist on charging the full undiscounted fare? I can hardly say "some bloke off a forum says you're wrong" so there.

The connection time at Temple Meads is in excess of 15 minutes.

 

[Lampshade]

Not sure if it's relevant in this situation but I think you're ok to pay on the train if the station at which you began your journey has no ticketing facilities available.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Not sure if it's relevant in this situation but I think you're ok to pay on the train if the station at which you began your journey has no ticketing facilities available.

That is correct.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that if, at the station where you began your journey, there was-
a) no ticket office that was open;
b) no ticket machine that was working or able to sell the ticket you want;
or c) in Penalty Fare areas a working PERTIS machine

then you can buy the full range of tickets on board the train.

It is a commonly held view amongst staff that if you get on a train at say Leeds then you must buy your ticket beforehand even if you have come in from an unstaffed station on a connecting train.

You must of course buy your ticket at the first opportunity and some would argue that in the above case the first opportunity was the excess fares desk before the barrier.

If a passenger gets on my train and asks for a ticket from an unstaffed station then I will sell them the full range. If they ask for a ticket from Leeds, which many of them do thinking that having not paid on the first train they will now save money, I charge them the full open fare. As there are gates at Leeds and a 24 hour ticket office, then they would be hard pressed to have an excuse not to have a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie - I don't entirely understand your reply. Are you saying the Train Manager on Cross Country is one of these 'Basil Fawlty' types (whatever that means?) and that he was incorrect to point out that he could have charged me the full fare?

Well, yes, because that's what Basil would do: he'd do the right thing (usually) while moaning at the customer as if they're some sort of criminal and he's doing them a massive favour by providing them a 'service'.

If this is the case, it's a very widely held myth, since the two other staff, and their manager at Temple Meads, confirmed the Cross Country Ticket Conductor's position as valid.

Yes, it is a widely held myth, more so than other myths which include, among others "you can never double back", "the Routeing Guide should be ignored; it's what I think is reasonable that matters", "16 year olds are not entitled to a child fare in any circumstances even when a Family Railcard is held", "This train is a peak train and therefore off peak tickets are not valid, as ticket conditions are set per-train and not per-ticket", "Tickets without the + are not valid via London", "You cannot break your outward journey on a CDR" and many more... and yes, I've encountered people who have claimed these things.
Why are there so many myths in the rail industry? 2 reasons I think.
1) "Simple" (!) fares - ie, actually very complicated. The rail industry just can't face the reality.
2) Lack of training for staff, especially barrier staff.

I am sure this will happen again, since the local connecting service is often late. What can I do if the Train Manager does insist on charging the full undiscounted fare? I can hardly say "some bloke off a forum says you're wrong" so there.

Ask them for a copy of the rules regarding boarding at unstaffed stations. Even better, bring a copy with you.

The connection time at Temple Meads is in excess of 15 minutes.

Did your connection meet the minimial connectional allowance? I do not know if this is an issue or not, I've not seen any clarification either way, but it would be good to eliminate it as a potential stumbling block if possible.

If a passenger gets on my train and asks for a ticket from an unstaffed station then I will sell them the full range. If they ask for a ticket from Leeds, which many of them do thinking that having not paid on the first train they will now save money, I charge them the full open fare. As there are gates at Leeds and a 24 hour ticket office, then they would be hard pressed to have an excuse not to have a ticket.

I agree with that, that's totally fair and reasonable and it ensures that legitimate passengers are not unfairly penalised. Out of interest, were you trained to do this or are you simply applying common sense?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I agree with that, that's totally fair and reasonable and it ensures that legitimate passengers are not unfairly penalised. Out of interest, were you trained to do this or are you simply applying common sense?

A bit of both to be honest. My original ticket training which was before I was with TPE taught me that, but lots of those at TPE will have you believe that you must be expected to get off your train from whereever, then go and buy a ticket, then come round to your next train. This is unreasonable in my view. Luckily as I quite like to be aware of what things like the NRCOC say and mean I can apply what it actually says - as opposed to what people think it says - with some sense.

 

[Ferret]

The TM less than a coach length away, kept First Class that way, for himself and four passengers, failed to do a single ticket check, or attempt to alleviate any of the overcrowding.

And how would you propose he eased the overcrowding? Magic some extra coaches out of thin air? Wave a magic wand and make them all disappear?

As for FC, there are a number of reasons for not declassifying. For a start, if you'd paid a full FOR fare you'd not be too impressed if FC was invaded by all and sundry.

Also, put yourself in the TMs shoes when he's upgraded 22 people free of charge and a total of 15 people join with FC tickets at Wolves and Brum. Then what would you do? Try and move 15 people outside and cause a riot?

Finally, if the train was as wedged as you imply, how do you suggest he does a ticket check? Climb over the hoards of people? Use a battering ram to get through? Not realistic is it?

I can't comment on the specifics of that day (previous train cancelled maybe?) but where you have a system allowing consumers to walk up and buy a ticket to travel, you'll always have full and standing trains. If you'd prefer a system of compulsory reservation for *every* train journey then I'm sure Lord Adonis will be most receptive to your ideas on how this would work.

Returning to the original complaint, I'd have to say that in those circumstances I'd explain what the rules are and then acknowledge the circumstances and sell the discounted ticket. Simple customer service from where I'm stood.

 

[Bristol Rover]

Thanks for the further replies.

"The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that if, at the station where you began your journey, there was-
a) no ticket office that was open;
b) no ticket machine that was working or able to sell the ticket you want;
or c) in Penalty Fare areas a working PERTIS machine "

I did read these before writing my letters to FGW and XC. They certainly excuse the lack of ticket at the initial station I boarded (Bedminster), but they do not make mention of what to do if you then arrive at a manned station and need to change trains.

Yorkie - are these the rules for boarding at unmanned stations you are referring to, or are there further rules elsewhere? They aren't very thorough are they? I.e. - they do not make any mention of the scenario I have outlined. However, if this is all there is, they can't really justify making up some new rules that I haven't had any chance to know about.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is correct.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that if, at the station where you began your journey, there was-
a) no ticket office that was open;
b) no ticket machine that was working or able to sell the ticket you want;
or c) in Penalty Fare areas a working PERTIS machine

then you can buy the full range of tickets on board the train....

Not strictly true, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is loosely worded in this regard. Condition 2 states the occasions you do not need to have a ticket before boarding a train and that you can buy discounted tickets after starting your journey if they apply, it has no mention of when you must buy the ticket in those circumstances.

Condition 22 states you must produce a ticket for a member of staff (with any relevant railcard) unless the relevant parts of Condition 2 (or 4) applies, no mention of actually buying one.

Now I would suggest that using this as an excuse not to purchase a ticket at all is not advisable, but it could be used as a reason for not visiting a ticket office at a station where you change trains should a conductor fail to make themself seen on the first train, should a conductor challenge this it is their responsibility to prove that you have in someway broken the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[barrykas]

A bit of both to be honest. My original ticket training which was before I was with TPE taught me that, but lots of those at TPE will have you believe that you must be expected to get off your train from whereever, then go and buy a ticket, then come round to your next train. This is unreasonable in my view. Luckily as I quite like to be aware of what things like the NRCOC say and mean I can apply what it actually says - as opposed to what people think it says - with some sense.

In my opinion it would depend on the journey being made. If there's an onward train every 15 minutes, then I'd say it's reasonable to expect you to buy a ticket at the interchange station. If there's only one an hour, I'd offer the full range on board.

So in the OP's case, where there's a half hourly service, I'd lean towards offering the full range of tickets, particularly where the connection has been compromised.

Incidentally, the eNRT shows a minimum 10 minute connection at Temple Meads.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[ChrisTheRef]

And how would you propose he eased the overcrowding? Magic some extra coaches out of thin air? Wave a magic wand and make them all disappear?

As for FC, there are a number of reasons for not declassifying. For a start, if you'd paid a full FOR fare you'd not be too impressed if FC was invaded by all and sundry.

People standing in the vestibules should stand in the vestibules, agreed. But when people can't physically get on the train, surely FC must be declassified. If you were a full fare paying FC passenger, and felt unfairly done by, you'd write to the TOC who would say "yeah sorry, but we had to do it, here's some money back"

 

[Ferret]

Chris, you've addressed one small part of my explanation there - what about the rest of it?

Tbh, you're damned if you do declassify and damned if you don't. The NRCoC provide some guidance - namely the bit about if the Guard is satisfied that the seats will not be required by FC pax then at the Guard's discretion you may be allowed to occupy an FC seat with a standard ticket. All depends on the circumstances at the time...

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Agreed. Obviously you can't declassify a seat which already has a first class arse sat on it

 

[clagmonster]

I believe the procedure when first class is declassified is that passengers with first class tickets have there tickets marked that the first class was declassified for their journey, and as such are able to claim the difference between the first and second class fares. I am not sure whether this applies to all TOCs though.
In my opinion, if second class is overcrowded at a level considered to be dangerous, or people would otherwise be left behind, declassifying first class is the lesser of two evils.

 

[royaloak]

Bristol Rovers,
when you boarded the first train did you not go to find the conductor, or did you get on, sit down and think "if they don't come around its not my fault". The onus is on you to get a ticket so you should have gone to the conductor rather than wait for him to come to you.
As for getting on the second train you should get your ticket at Bristol TM, or approach the guard BEFORE boarding and explain to him the situation, otherwise you are liable for a full fare ticket because you had the opportunity to buy. Now I know the first train was late, but unfortunately these are the rules right or wrong.
How many times do you think the guard will hear "oh I wanted to buy a ticket but I/ the train was running late", how do you tell the difference between the genuine ones and the ones trying for a freebie, in most cases if you approach them first you SHOULD be fine but they are under no obligation to sell discounted tickets on the train.

 

[tony_mac]

Now I know the first train was late, but unfortunately these are the rules right or wrong.

Are they? What rules exactly are you referring to.

Personally, I don't go round looking for guards either on the train or prior to departure. As far as I am concerned the best person to determine what the guard should be doing is the guard; I don't feel that it is my place to interrupt him to deal with me - he may be dealing with safety issues or matters that he considers more important.
Maybe you guys know better, but I have never seen an instruction for passengers to go and find the guard, and have no reason to believe that it is the correct thing to do.

and I don't believe that it's reasonable to inconvenience passengers, even if it's just for 15 minutes (which could ruin any onward connection), because you made it impossible for them to buy a ticket by not providing facilities either at the station or on the train.

 

[Ferret]

Agreed. Obviously you can't declassify a seat which already has a first class arse sat on it

LMAO! But what if you know that seat is reserved from the next shack up yet the bloke who is currently stood and wants a free FC upgrade is travelling all the way to Bournemouth? It's one of the worst situations to deal with quite frankly but I'd imagine the Guard had his reasons for keeping FC for those who had paid an FC fare.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

I'm surprised the:

"I always board a train with a ticket, it's just not always valid" excuse hasn't come up yet!

 

[theblackwatch]

If there's an onward train every 15 minutes, then I'd say it's reasonable to expect you to buy a ticket at the interchange station.

If it's like my local station was when I went to buy a ticket a week or two back (on a Sunday afternoon, when I would expect it to be quiet), 15 minutes wouldn't be long enough! I had to queue for 20 minutes to be served. This poses another question, how long is acceptable to have to wait before giving up and boarding a train?

 

[yorkie]

Bristol Rovers,
when you boarded the first train did you not go to find the conductor, or did you get on, sit down and think "if they don't come around its not my fault". The onus is on you to get a ticket so you should have gone to the conductor rather than wait for him to come to you.

While I don't disagree this is common sense, where is this rule quoted? I do not believe there is any such rule at all and therefore it cannot be enforced.

As for getting on the second train you should get your ticket at Bristol TM, or approach the guard BEFORE boarding and explain to him the situation,

Not always possible though!

otherwise you are liable for a full fare ticket because you had the opportunity to buy.

He is liable? says who? you? The NCOC rules apply, not ones you made up. Opportunity to buy does NOT mean you have to delay yourself, ATOC have confirmed this.

Now I know the first train was late, but unfortunately these are the rules right or wrong.

What are the rules? Nothing you say is in any rule that is documented anywhere that I can find. If you are aware of some secret documents, then please reveal them as I'd be interested to read how they can contradict with the NCoC and what ATOC have stated....

How many times do you think the guard will hear "oh I wanted to buy a ticket but I/ the train was running late", how do you tell the difference between the genuine ones and the ones trying for a freebie, in most cases if you approach them first you SHOULD be fine but they are under no obligation to sell discounted tickets on the train.

Yes they are under obligation to sell discounted tickets to any passenger boarding at an unstaffed station. Sorry, but those are the rules! If you can't differentiate, then tough - you can't presume guilt on that basis!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it's like my local station was when I went to buy a ticket a week or two back (on a Sunday afternoon, when I would expect it to be quiet), 15 minutes wouldn't be long enough! I had to queue for 20 minutes to be served. This poses another question, how long is acceptable to have to wait before giving up and boarding a train?

If you have a valid connection then there is no disputing the fact that you can board it and do NOT have to inconvenience yourself by missing it, but it is not clear cut if the connection isn't valid, as it could be argued that you shouldn't have expected to get it anyway (I personally don't agree with this but it's just what they might say and I can't confirm either way). The claim is that if there is a train 15 minutes later then a valid connection should be missed, but that's just made up and no such rule exists that I can find anywhere. So the idea that there is a certain time you have to wait, or a certain frequency that means you don't have to delay yourself is, as far as I can tell, simply made up!

 

[nedchester]

Maybe you guys know better, but I have never seen an instruction for passengers to go and find the guard, and have no reason to believe that it is the correct thing to do.

.

That's because there is no such instruction....

 

[eos]

And how would you propose he eased the overcrowding?

Easy -

Get the TM to tell people that seats are not for luggage.
Get the luggage into the now ex-shop area which remained almost devoid of any.
Remove or void the reserved seats that were not occupied, within minutes of departing Manchester Piccadilly. ( except obvoiously reserved seats further along the line, )
Find people to fill those seats.
I did a journey the following day Wolverhampton to Preston, in a similarly loaded and full service ( they all seemed to be heading to Blackpool or Scotland) and a really top class train manager took that approach north of Warrington. No one stood for more than five or six minutes, every person got a seat , refreshments were served, and ticket checks took place . Not only that , the TM had chance to help with onward connections, as I heard him do with the guy sitting next to me and heading for St Andrews.

As regards your comments that a previous train may have been cancelled- err no it haddn't . I was on the station for 4 hours prior to this, spotting and watching the departure boards, etc. There were no cancellations and delays were at most a few minutes , and of no consequence.
My departure was triggered after the expected ECS to Carnforth with 37+47 had passed thru, and the station was not overly busy- a typical Sunday not a weekday.

The TM had a clear responsibilty to ensure that as happened to me , 13 of us stood in a single Foyer for the entire journey, with not enough space to even shuffle your feet, whilst 70 plus seats in coach A remained vacant.

 

[John @ home]

13 of us stood in a single Foyer for the entire journey, with not enough space to even shuffle your feet, whilst 70 plus seats in coach A remained vacant.

But there are only 26 seats in Coach A of a Voyager. Seating plan here.

John

 

[Ferret]

Easy -
....13 of us stood in a single Foyer for the entire journey, with not enough space to even shuffle your feet, whilst 70 plus seats in coach A remained vacant.

Umm, is that your credibility I hear whooshing out of the door? That's a massive exageration as regards the number of seats in FC - there are 26 seats in coach A on XC voyagers. So, if I assume that there were at least 10 people standing in each vestibule of a 4 car 220 apart from the area near the galley where standing is not permitted, that would mean that there were a minimum of 70 people stood on the train, probably more. Declassifying FC would have barely scratched the surface therefore, but possibly created yet another problem at New St where more FC customers undoubtedly joined only to find their seats occupied by standard pax who would not move. I'm beginning to understand exactly why the TM did not declassify FC!

As regards your point about getting luggage into the area formerly known as the shop, you'll find that the vast majority of customers will not use that because they can't actually see their luggage!

With all due respect, you've fallen into the trap of blaming the guard because he's there when in reality it's the fault of whoever ordered trains that weren't fit for purpose. I hope you didn't use that wild exageration in your letter because if you did, I rather expect it will have been filed in the appropriate location.

 

[furryfeet]

That is correct.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage state that if, at the station where you began your journey, there was-
a) no ticket office that was open;
b) no ticket machine that was working or able to sell the ticket you want;
or c) in Penalty Fare areas a working PERTIS machine

then you can buy the full range of tickets on board the train.

So then, why has ATOC not made sure that
a) all the TOC's understand this rule
b) enforce that they abide by it.

Then the situation of guards making things up as they go along will never occur.

Or does it have to wait until one of the OP's letters gets to Lord Adonis ?