Blank sign on variable speed limit motorways

[MotCO]

It did have a link, and (not surprisingly) it wasn't working when I checked. I need to have another look. At present, I've returned the driver confirmation form. If they offer an awareness course, I might take it as arguing the toss is so time consuming. If they want to dish out 3 points, maybe I'll feel different. I am conscious though of the other post(s) earlier in this thread advising not to make assumptions about the first blank gantry with no explicit notice of return to NSL.

You may wish to reconsider 'pleading guilty'. If you are caught speeding again in the future they may not offer you a speed awareness course but give you 3 points, so it would be better a) to keep a clean sheet now and b) make sure you are not caught speeding again.

 

[johncrossley]

pepipoo.com is the place for this sort of thing, by the way, it's less well moderated than here but they know their stuff.

A link to a relevant thread on that forum is shown above but I didn't see any examples of people getting prosecuted for passing a blank sign. I wonder if @ukcommando discovered this thread through an internet search? If that is the case, this might be the only example on the internet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A link to a relevant thread on that forum is shown above but I didn't see any examples of people getting prosecuted for passing a blank sign. I wonder if @ukcommando discovered this thread through an internet search? If that is the case, this might be the only example on the internet.

If it isn't meant to happen and only has because of human error (a person has to check them to see if the pictured gantry correctly shows the limit), it could well be the only example to have actually happened.

The non working image link does sort of suggest to me it could already have been cancelled...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2023 ==

Thanks for the suggestions. I've managed to get into the camera images now. There's a clear picture of my car clocked at 47mph, and a picture of the gantry showing 40mph. The info also states that the signs had been up for 2min 50 sec. So having gone back and forth on Google Street View, I can only conclude that the "blank gantry" I mentioned was the one before, and the gantry where I first saw 40 mph was two before the one where I was clocked. The time for which the limit had been up would suggest that although the first gantry "came on" as I approached it, the third one where I was clocked had been showing the reduced speed for a few minutes. I was clearly slowing down anyway, just not enough! This also shows that if a gantry is showing a reduced speed when it first comes into the drivers view, then you need to reduce your speed to the indicated figure by the time you reach it, or face getting clocked. This is just like the stereotypical hiding behind the 30mph, radar gun in hand as you enter a town/village from an A road. So I think I need to take this on the chin, frustrating as it is. For those who are interested in such things, the first gantry I passed (just after the M20 junction) was no 138/S1, the second (blank when I passed) was no 124 (adjacent to lamp 4Q404) and the one where I was clocked was number 116/S0

Fair enough. I guess the best outcome for you in that case is indeed a speed awareness course.

On the original ones the camera was immediately behind the gantry, mounted on the back of it. On the newer ones it seems to be positioned at the side, but with a similar field of view. This being the case yes you do indeed need to pass the gantry at or below the speed it is showing, despite it being usual practice at most signed limits for Police not to stand right behind them and for fixed cameras to be a fair way in. One for experience I guess.

 

[ukcommando]

Because some insurers now ask about courses in the last 5 years, I would personally challenge it in Court (with appropriate legal advice) if the picture shows a blank gantry. Because these things need proof reading manually to check the gantry picture indeed showed the correct limit, I suspect it's a mistake issuing it. This occasionally does happen, e.g. bus companies getting penalties for driving in the bus lane...in a bus.

One should never plead guilty to an offence one has not committed.

I wonder if, if the photo link doesn't work, it's already been cancelled? Is there a phone number you can call on it?

Thanks for the suggestions.

I've managed to get into the camera images now. There's a clear picture of my car clocked at 47mph, and a picture of the gantry showing 40mph.

The info also states that the signs had been up for 2min 50 sec. So having gone back and forth on Google Street View, I can only conclude that the "blank gantry" I mentioned was the one before, and the gantry where I first saw 40 mph was two before the one where I was clocked.

The time for which the limit had been up would suggest that although the first gantry "came on" as I approached it, the third one where I was clocked had been showing the reduced speed for a few minutes. I was clearly slowing down anyway, just not enough!

This also shows that if a gantry is showing a reduced speed when it first comes into the drivers view, then you need to reduce your speed to the indicated figure by the time you reach it, or face getting clocked.

This is just like the stereotypical copper hiding behind the 30mph sign, radar gun in hand as you enter a town/village from an A road.

So I think I need to take this on the chin, frustrating as it is.

For those who are interested in such things, the first gantry I passed (just after the M20 junction) was no 138/S1, the second (blank when I passed) was no 124 (adjacent to lamp 4Q404) and the one where I was clocked was number 116/S0

 

[Bald Rick]

Bad luck.

 

[Enthusiast]

This also shows that if a gantry is showing a reduced speed when it first comes into the drivers view, then you need to reduce your speed to the indicated figure by the time you reach it, or face getting clocked.

Yes it does. There is a standard minimum period of ten seconds allowed between the reduced limit illuminating and the camera arming. Many installations provide a longer period than that.

The topic of speeding enforcement and prosecution is something of which I have quite a decent knowledge. There are quite a number of misunderstandings in this thread (which I've only just come across) which I won't go into. But to address a couple:

Insurers asking about courses taken: The Admiral Group used to ask for details of them but they stopped about three years ago. I don't believe any mainstream insurers do so now.

Enforcement thresholds: All police forces in England and Wales are said to comply with the Association of Chief Police Officers' guidance. This was published in 2011 and was adopted by the National Police Chiefs' Council when the ACPO was abolished and the NPCC replaced it in 2015. In short, they say that enforcement should begin at (Limit+10%+2mph). Courses are offered up to (Limit+10%+9mph) with a driver being eligible for only one course in three years (but see below), with the dates of the offences being used to calculate that period. Above that threshold, fixed penalties (£100 and three points) are offered up to 34mph in a 20mph limit; 49mph (30); and up to 25mph above all the higher limits. Above those speeds prosecution in court follows. The guidance document can be found here:

https://library.college.police.uk/docs/appref/ACPO-Speed-Enforcement-Guidance.pdf

The table of enforcement thresholds within that document is not particularly friendly, so I have provided my own version:



The only departures I know of from this guidance is the Met used to use (Limit+10%+3mph) as their threshold but reverted to the national guidance about four years ago. They also used to offer Fixed Penalties up to 54mph in a 30mph limit but similarly now comply with the national guidance. Dorset police do not subscribe to NDORS (National Driver Offender Retraining Scheme) but instead run their own courses. Their courses do not count when considering eligibilty elsewhere. This means a driver can do a Dorset course and one elsewhere during a three year period.

Hope this helps fill a few holes.

 

[Bald Rick]

The topic of speeding enforcement and prosecution is something of which I have quite a decent knowledge.

thank you for sharing that, it aligns with what I understood to be the case and what was presented at the Speed Awareness course I did 6 years ago.

Dorset police do not subscribe to NDORS (National Driver Offender Retraining Scheme) but instead run their own courses.

interesting. Do you have to be a Dorset resident, or have committed the offence in Dorset, to be eligible to attend one of these? Asking for a friend!

 

[Towers]

The operation of signage & limits on ‘Smart’ m-ways is utterly shocking, and IMHO there ought to be a publically accessible website where every deviation from NSL is logged along with the reason; “bored/‘training’/no apparent cause for mile after mile of clear road” might be open to a bit more scrutiny then!

I’m quite happy to state that I disregard the vast majority of Matrix messages (I’m yet to see the phantom “Pedestrians in Road”!), non-enforceable advisory limits (such as those ancient, small square signs buried in the central reservation on some stretches of conventional m-way that often randomly suggest 40 or 50 for miles for absolutely no apparent reason) and assorted other nonsense, and drive to what I can see on the road in front of me, as any vaguely skilled driver ought to be able to do competently. The current generation of ‘Smart’ m-way speed cameras are helpfully pretty easy to spot too; the previous ones mounted on the reverse of the gantries such as on the M25 were impossible to see, it’s rather baffling why they didn’t stick with that idea but I’m not complaining!

 

[zwk500]

I’m quite happy to state that I disregard the vast majority of Matrix messages (I’m yet to see the phantom “Pedestrians in Road”!)

The mentality of 'if I can't see it it doesn't exist' for people in control of a tonne and a half of metal travelling at up to around 70mph with an awful lot of blindspots is rather worrying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The mentality of 'if I can't see it it doesn't exist' for people in control of a tonne and a half of metal travelling at up to around 70mph with an awful lot of blindspots is rather worrying.

Quite. Most people don't do 40 in an advisory 40, so slowing down that much could actually be dangerous, but it certainly needs to be taken as a warning that you may need to stop very soon.

 

[zwk500]

Quite. Most people don't do 40 in an advisory 40, so slowing down that much could actually be dangerous, but it certainly needs to be taken as a warning that you may need to stop very soon.

It depends, I've seen plenty of VSLs where it's flashing 40 and I'd thought 'if only I could actually get up to that speed' becuase the queue was moving at 20-ish.
However the biggest issue seems to be convincing people that both individually and collectively by slowing down a little over a longer distance they actually get to their destination quicker than if they go screaming up to the site of an incident and have to stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends, I've seen plenty of VSLs where it's flashing 40 and I'd thought 'if only I could actually get up to that speed' becuase the queue was moving at 20-ish.
However the biggest issue seems to be convincing people that both individually and collectively by slowing down a little over a longer distance they actually get to their destination quicker than if they go screaming up to the site of an incident and have to stop.

That of course is done by enforcement on smart motorways - they don't have to convince people, just make them do it. But some of the opposition to smart motorways does involve conspiracy theories against this, so I suppose there is that wider issue.

 

[Enthusiast]

interesting. Do you have to be a Dorset resident, or have committed the offence in Dorset, to be eligible to attend one of these? Asking for a friend!

Tell your friend he has to be caught speeding in Dorset.

When courses were all held face to face the facility was a bit of a bind for those not living in Dorset because the miscreant had to travel to the county to take the course. Since Covid the majority of courses, both in Dorset and elsewhere, have been held online.

 

[Towers]

The mentality of 'if I can't see it it doesn't exist' for people in control of a tonne and a half of metal travelling at up to around 70mph with an awful lot of blindspots is rather worrying.

The prevailing mentality of speed restrictions for miles and miles for something utterly trivial inevitably only leads to once place, I’m afraid. I’ve been behind the wheel - a lot - for twenty years, I’m yet to plough into an obstruction on a motorway. To clarify, I’m not talking about congestion, which is an entirely different beast, but speed restrictions enforced or otherwise which are plainly inappropriate. Any regular motorway driver will tell you there are plenty of them.

There are very few blindspots to the front of a vehicle that would prevent an observant driver from seeing an upcoming obstruction on a motorway, and I’d be very surprised if the phantom ”Pedestrians in Road” suddenly appeared racing up the outside lane as you were about to pull out to overtake!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The prevailing mentality of speed restrictions for miles and miles for something utterly trivial inevitably only leads to once place, I’m afraid. I’ve been behind the wheel - a lot - for twenty years, I’m yet to plough into an obstruction on a motorway. To clarify, I’m not talking about congestion, which is an entirely different beast, but speed restrictions enforced or otherwise which are plainly inappropriate. Any regular motorway driver will tell you there are plenty of them.

This would, in the air or rail industries, be referred to as "dangerous arrogance" and likely, eventually, to lead to deaths.

Most drivers do consider a non-mandatory "Max speed N" or flashing warning as just that - a warning that "there may be trouble ahead" and ease off a little, depending on what the number shown is (on a motorway for instance a 60 would indicate perhaps a general slowing, but a 40 would indicate something potentially serious to look ahead for). However simply disregarding them is incredibly ill-advised - while they do sometimes get left up in error, most of the time they do indicate that *something* is amiss.

As for a warning of pedestrians, that's sensible. You don't expect pedestrians on a motorway, you're looking for vehicles. Thus it's useful to know to be looking for a hazard that isn't normally there. Similarly debris.

 

[zwk500]

The prevailing mentality of speed restrictions for miles and miles for something utterly trivial inevitably only leads to once place, I’m afraid. I’ve been behind the wheel - a lot - for twenty years, I’m yet to plough into an obstruction on a motorway.

You only have to crash once...

To clarify, I’m not talking about congestion, which is an entirely different beast, but speed restrictions enforced or otherwise which are plainly inappropriate. Any regular motorway driver will tell you there are plenty of them.

Unless you are in the control room, you cannot know how appropriate or not they are. I've also driven a lot (not for the length of time you have) and have driven through uncountable restrictions where I've seen no sense of anything amiss or that there might have been a problem and thought, like you, 'well what was the point of that then' - until remembering that the entire point of VSL is that you cruise through at 50 instead of bunching up by doing 70-0-70.
If a VSL comes on I try and take up position in lane 1 or 2 (depending on traffic flow) to travel at the VSL without blocking cars who feel they know better. Almost always I see such cars later on along the road (and before the next services )

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are few blindspots to the front of a vehicle that would prevent an observant driver from seeing an upcoming obstructio on a motorway, and I’d be very surprised if the phantom pedestrian suddenly appeared racing up the outside lane as you were about to pull out to overtake!

People don't generally walk on motorways for a laugh (though there have been odd cases of cyclists riding on them, typically non-UK ones who don't know the law properly, and the occasional lost hiker walking across*). It is usually associated with a broken down vehicle or one that has shed its load, and not infeasible that they might attempt to cross running lanes to collect items they have lost or remove debris.

Plus as I said you're not normally looking for a pedestrian when on a motorway.

* You'd not typically cross the A41 on the level either, it's a de-facto motorway but for cycling being allowed (but almost unheard of because why would you?) - but there are a couple of pedestrian "level crossings" and so the signage of that unexpected possibility is important.

 

[Bald Rick]

The prevailing mentality of speed restrictions for miles and miles for something utterly trivial inevitably only leads to once place, I’m afraid. I’ve been behind the wheel - a lot - for twenty years, I’m yet to plough into an obstruction on a motorway. To clarify, I’m not talking about congestion, which is an entirely different beast, but speed restrictions enforced or otherwise which are plainly inappropriate. Any regular motorway driver will tell you there are plenty of them.

There are very few blindspots to the front of a vehicle that would prevent an observant driver from seeing an upcoming obstruction on a motorway, and I’d be very surprised if the phantom ”Pedestrians in Road” suddenly appeared racing up the outside lane as you were about to pull out to overtake!

I’ve done my fair share of motorway driving since the 80s, and seen just about everything. Most of my motorway driving these days is on Managed / SMART motorways, (M1, M6, M25, M42, M5) and the spurious speed restrictions are relatively rare. Those with ‘debris in road’, ‘pedestrians’ ‘broken down vehicle’ etc are more often than not correct - I saw a pedestrian walking casually up the hard shoulder only last week.

The spurious restrictions that are annoying are those that are on for nothing at all, which I take to be a fault in the speed sensors. This is rare though. However I’d rather have that, occasionally, than come across half a BMW
spread across the outside lane without warning (yes, that has happened).

 

[Ted633]

I do find that peoples response to variable speed limits also depends on what the sign says. For example, the more usual 'Incident' or 'Congestion' get ignored by a reasonable proportion of drivers (if they can), however I have observed that messages like 'oil in road' or 'oncoming vehicle ' tend to get far higher compliance!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find that peoples response to variable speed limits also depends on what the sign says. For example, the more usual 'Incident' or 'Congestion' get ignored by a reasonable proportion of drivers (if they can), however I have observed that messages like 'oil in road' or 'oncoming vehicle ' tend to get far higher compliance!

To be honest I find it odd that the enforcement uses "point" speed cameras only every few gantries rather than average speed cameras between the gantries. Compliance would be much better if it worked this way (and it'd not be doing people for speeding up/slowing down slightly the wrong side of the gantry, which most people consider a bit unfair). As now, a vehicle wouldn't be penalised if it was recorded passing the first camera a period of time after a limit change.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be honest I find it odd that the enforcement uses "point" speed cameras only every few gantries rather than average speed cameras between the gantries. Compliance would be much better if it worked this way (and it'd not be doing people for speeding up/slowing down slightly the wrong side of the gantry, which most people consider a bit unfair). As now, a vehicle wouldn't be penalised if it was recorded passing the first camera a period of time after a limit change.

Yes I’ve been surprised at this strategy; I assume it is because you would need proof of the VSL limit that was being displayed at every gantry between the entry/exit cameras, and it possibly becomes quite an admin task.

However no doubt it will happen at some point and another avenue of pleasure is closed off.

what I have noticed though is that on smart motorway areas, the number of vehicles driving at or just above the indicated limit, and reasonably consistently, is much higher than on ‘unsmart’ motorways. Compare the M1 south of Rugby with the M40 south of Warwick.

 

[zwk500]

Yes I’ve been surprised at this strategy; I assume it is because you would need proof of the VSL limit that was being displayed at every gantry between the entry/exit cameras, and it possibly becomes quite an admin task.

However no doubt it will happen at some point and another avenue of pleasure is closed off.

Presumably there would also be potential issues if the limit is changed while the car is in the section.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes I’ve been surprised at this strategy; I assume it is because you would need proof of the VSL limit that was being displayed at every gantry between the entry/exit cameras, and it possibly becomes quite an admin task.

However no doubt it will happen at some point and another avenue of pleasure is closed off.

what I have noticed though is that on smart motorway areas, the number of vehicles driving at or just above the indicated limit, and reasonably consistently, is much higher than on ‘unsmart’ motorways. Compare the M1 south of Rugby with the M40 south of Warwick.

With average speed enforcement I guess there would still be a camera on every gantry, just an ANPR one with a clock in the corner.

I rather hope your second sentence is intended in jest, otherwise that speed awareness course would appear to have been in vain.

A lot of people driving consistently sounds like the smart motorway doing its job.

Presumably there would also be potential issues if the limit is changed while the car is in the section.

Tickets would only be issued if the vehicle passed the start of the measuring section at least 10s (or whatever figure) after the speed in question was displayed.

 

[zwk500]

A lot of people driving consistently sounds like the smart motorway doing its job.

Agreed. Now if they can get everybody to keep to the leftmost lane unless overtaking....

 

[Bald Rick]

I rather hope your second sentence is intended in jest, otherwise that speed awareness course would appear to have been in vain.

I drive to the conditions, using all available information (including the matrix signs).

A lot of people driving consistently sounds like the smart motorway doing its job.

Agree entirely.

Agreed. Now if they can get everybody to keep to the leftmost lane unless overtaking....

I wasn’t going to mention it, but…

 

[DelW]

I’ve done my fair share of motorway driving since the 80s, and seen just about everything. Most of my motorway driving these days is on Managed / SMART motorways, (M1, M6, M25, M42, M5) and the spurious speed restrictions are relatively rare. Those with ‘debris in road’, ‘pedestrians’ ‘broken down vehicle’ etc are more often than not correct - I saw a pedestrian walking casually up the hard shoulder only last week.

I'm less convinced about the rarity of (apparently) spurious restrictions. Driving from Dunfermline to Surrey a couple of weeks ago, I must have gone through nearly a dozen 50mph restrictions, some lasting up to about 5 miles - my passenger and I were joking about them by the end. Most were "report of obstruction", "report of debris", or "pedestrians in road". Only at the latter was there a visible cause, two young women walking along the back of the hard shoulder, apparently between a broken down car and a nearby service area. They were no danger at all to traffic, and were only at risk themselves if a vehicle veered across the full width of the shoulder (not impossible, but rare). I mostly slowed to around 55, but most other traffic, including HGVs, was overtaking me as a result.

I saw an odd case a few weeks ago on the western M25. There was congestion between the M4 and M40 (as normal), so the gantries were showing a 50 limit. But for a mile or more (multiple gantries) the lane 2 sign was blank. The traffic prevented anyone from taking advantage of it, but presumably someone doing 70 in lane 2 couldn't have been prosecuted? It's a section where quite often lane 2 is almost unused as so many people want to drive slowly in lane 3 (and leave 1 to lorries and 2 empty).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably there would also be potential issues if the limit is changed while the car is in the section.

You know what the limit was for each car when it entered the section, so apply the higher of that and what applies now. Separate periodic video, with time recorded, of the gantry could be taken.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2023 ==

Agreed. Now if they can get everybody to keep to the leftmost lane unless overtaking....

No real way to camera-enforce that (unless you only did very long sections; not everyone's view of a safe distance is the same), so it would require the Police taking the Traffic Officers back on and giving them enforcement abilities back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2023 ==

I drive to the conditions, using all available information (including the matrix signs).

You must drive to the conditions or what the matrix signs say, whichever is LOWER. It sounds like you still find speeding acceptable. The trend is now that it is going to become as socially unacceptable as drink driving. If you want "fun" with a car rather than a safe journey, book a track day.

 

[zwk500]

The trend is now that it is going to become as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

Socially, speeding is nowhere near as frowned upon as drink driving or phone driving.

 

[johncrossley]

I presume the police have to act on any reports of pedestrians or debris in the road and only remove the warning once they are absolutely satisfied that the danger is over. Otherwise you can see the Daily Mail headlines. "Distraught widow angry at police at husband's death due to debris in the road".

Socially, speeding is nowhere near as frowned upon as drink driving or phone driving.

Currently, speeding is seen as "cool" and you can even proudly announce that you speed on an internet forum. Maybe that is changing, but I don't see much evidence so far.

 

[Towers]

Socially, speeding is nowhere near as frowned upon as drink driving or phone driving.

Indeed. And with the authorities continuing to inflict deeply unpopular decisions like widespread urban 20 zones (see recent developments in Wales), and the endless scourge of excessively lengthy, both in terms of distance and duration, motorway works and associated limits, motorists’ frustration and their eagerness to make up ‘lost time’ is highly unlikely to reduce speeding or to make it less socially acceptable. Go to a 20 zone and half the people driving around town are speeding.