Blank sign on variable speed limit motorways

[AlterEgo]

Good evening, found these recent posts interesting. Could anyone confirm if the absence of a NSL, or 'END' sign, after a variable limit on a motorway, been challenged in court?

PePiPoo is where you need to be. That's where the driver nerds hang out. http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t121478.html

However a few years back I got busted for doing 70 in a 50 on the M1 (didn't see the gantry sign, my fault) - and Notts Police sent through comprehensive guidance about variable speed limits, which unequivocally said that no speed limit displayed on a blank sign meant that the NSL applied from there onwards.

 

[PeterC]

I recall an incident where only the overhead signs were being used to enforce a limit fo roadworks. The sign closest to the actual work was blank with the limit resuming once the workmen had been passed.

For added confusion try a temporary limit with fixed signs while the VSL displays are in use showing a different limit.

 

[MotCO]

Sometimes you see different speed limits above lanes, often near junctions. However, if there is a gantry with signs over each of four lanes, and one was blank, possibly broken, does that imply that NSL applies to that lane, given that you do seem to be able to have different speeds for different lanes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

For added confusion try a temporary limit with fixed signs while the VSL displays are in use showing a different limit.

I'm not sure of the legal ramifications here but the sensible approach is to follow the lower of the two if this happens, that way you can't be penalised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2023 ==

Sometimes you see different speed limits above lanes, often near junctions. However, if there is a gantry with signs over each of four lanes, and one was blank, possibly broken, does that imply that NSL applies to that lane, given that you do seem to be able to have different speeds for different lanes?

If you passed under the blank sign you presumably couldn't be penalised for doing NSL, but it probably isn't sensible to actually do NSL unless you like rear-end collisions. Just use a bit of common sense, it's usually obvious if the limits are differential (e.g. because of a queue on a slip lane) or the same but it's broken. For instance it'd never be the case that lane 2 would have a higher limit than lane 3, so if lane 2 is blank and lane 3 shows 50, then doing 50 is sensible.

Comply with the spirit, not just based on what you can be done for, and it works best.

 

[MotCO]

If you passed under the blank sign you presumably couldn't be penalised for doing NSL, but it probably isn't sensible to actually do NSL unless you like rear-end collisions. Just use a bit of common sense, it's usually obvious if the limits are differential (e.g. because of a queue on a slip lane) or the same but it's broken. For instance it'd never be the case that lane 2 would have a higher limit than lane 3, so if lane 2 is blank and lane 3 shows 50, then doing 50 is sensible.

Comply with the spirit, not just based on what you can be done for, and it works best.

I agree - it is what I would do, but legally I suspect you could not be penalised for speeding in the 'blank' lane.

 

[mpthomson]

If a single sign for the whole carriageway is blank then NSL applies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2023 ==

They are not on every gantry, far from it. But they do adjust to the speed displayed.




Minimum 60 seconds.

Re my bold, they're not normally active when NSL applies

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps the signs should have been fitted with Solari style flip boards so that they always display something....

 

[Bald Rick]

Re my bold, they're not normally active when NSL applies

They certainly are, and Mrs BR has the points to prove it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They certainly are, and Mrs BR has the points to prove it!

Probably set to the usual 10% + 2mph ish, which on most cars, due to speedometers over-reading, is going to be above 80 indicated, and that's probably the most common level of motorway speeding.

They weren't on when the systems were new though, this was added later.

 

[LucyP]

They are set to whatever the local police set them to. Some are not live when blank. The ones on the M1 around Nottingham for instance. I have driven through those regularly and people have gone past me doing at least 90 mph if not more and nothing has ever flashed.

The ones on the M62 around Huddersfield are set to about 73 genuine mph. I have driven at a sat nav confirmed 70 mph and seen people pass me, but at only a slightly higher speed and I have seen them flash.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure of the legal ramifications here but the sensible approach is to follow the lower of the two if this happens, that way you can't be penalised.

This is indeed the sensible approach, which means that the majority of drivers on the M1 and M25 will not be doing anything of the sort and instead having a 'Death Race' attitude to anybody who dares obey the limits...

If you passed under the blank sign you presumably couldn't be penalised for doing NSL, but it probably isn't sensible to actually do NSL unless you like rear-end collisions. Just use a bit of common sense, it's usually obvious if the limits are differential (e.g. because of a queue on a slip lane) or the same but it's broken. For instance it'd never be the case that lane 2 would have a higher limit than lane 3, so if lane 2 is blank and lane 3 shows 50, then doing 50 is sensible.

Comply with the spirit, not just based on what you can be done for, and it works best.

I tend to find that the majority of the time the gantries are on, the surrounding traffic flow is lower than the advertised speed and so it's all rather academic anyway. However if they signs are set for a long run at 50 or so (trying to slow down the rate at which traffic arrives at the blockage, by far the most useful thing the VSL can do) I tend to move as far left as is sensible and just let people overtake if they wish to run the cameras. It's a shame the message that 'going slower now means you arrive earlier at your destination' is missed by so many people who pile it up the rightmost lane only to have to come nearly to a stand to merge into the traffic at the bottleneck. I have lost count of the number of times a distinctive car/trailer/van etc has passed me somewhere near the M3/M25 junction and then I've caught it up on the M1 between Luton and MK.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have lost count of the number of times a distinctive car/trailer/van etc has passed me somewhere near the M3/M25 junction and then I've caught it up on the M1 between Luton and MK.

They’ll have stopped at Toddington for coffee

 

[zwk500]

They’ll have stopped at Toddington for coffee

Some of them, no doubt (although Toddington's a horrible services to use, Northampton's so much better if you can hold on). Although I remember one particular case where I caught up with them again on the M1/M25 junction, having passed me somewhere around the M3, so there's no services they could have used!

 

[johncrossley]

They certainly are, and Mrs BR has the points to prove it!

Was the previous sign set to 40/50/60? That would settle the debate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was the previous sign set to 40/50/60? That would settle the debate.

If she was doing over 70mph then no it doesn't!

 

[johncrossley]

If she was doing over 70mph then no it doesn't!

If the previous sign was not blank and that limit applied, then the fine would be more severe.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was the previous sign set to 40/50/60? That would settle the debate.

If she was doing over 70mph then no it doesn't!

There were no restriction signs of any speed, and NSL applied.

 

[mpthomson]

They are set to whatever the local police set them to. Some are not live when blank. The ones on the M1 around Nottingham for instance. I have driven through those regularly and people have gone past me doing at least 90 mph if not more and nothing has ever flashed.

The ones on the M62 around Huddersfield are set to about 73 genuine mph. I have driven at a sat nav confirmed 70 mph and seen people pass me, but at only a slightly higher speed and I have seen them flash.

Most aren't live when they're blank. I've gone through them at a sat navved 80 mph at night, and they haven't gone off, and as you say there's p[lenty of traffic that goes a lot faster than that and doesn't set them off. My suspicion is that they're set to occasionally flash as a warning. Other than N Wales all police forces in the UK use the ACPO guidelines of speed limit plus 10% + 2mph, that applies to all the ones on the M62 as well. I was on a SAC where they said that was the case, it was said because quite a few of the drivers there were claiming that they'd been done for going at 51 in a 50, when they hadn't. One of the purposes of the course, as stated by the instructors (both ex traffic bike officers) was to get rid of the denial that exists.

They did state that most people who claim they were going just a little bit over the posted speed limit were actually going significantly faster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most aren't live when they're blank. I've gone through them at a sat navved 80 mph at night, and they haven't gone off, and as you say there's p[lenty of traffic that goes a lot faster than that and doesn't set them off. My suspicion is that they're set to occasionally flash as a warning. Other than N Wales all police forces in the UK use the ACPO guidelines of speed limit plus 10% + 2mph, that applies to all the ones on the M62 as well. I was on a SAC where they said that was the case, it was said because quite a few of the drivers there were claiming that they'd been done for going at 51 in a 50, when they hadn't. One of the purposes of the course, as stated by the instructors (both ex traffic bike officers) was to get rid of the denial that exists.

Fairly sure Northants don't use 10% + 2 for everything either, though the motorway cameras probably are (anecdotally, from observation of other drivers).

 

[Bald Rick]

Most aren't live when they're blank. I've gone through them at a sat navved 80 mph at night, and they haven't gone off, and as you say there's p[lenty of traffic that goes a lot faster than that and doesn't set them off.

Whilst anecdote is not the best form of evidence, every time I see a car go through a motorway camera at more than about 82mph, the cameras flash. It’s a rare trip up the M1 where I don’t see one go off. Not for me though, as I am very observant of the limits.

 

[PeterC]

Whilst anecdote is not the best form of evidence, every time I see a car go through a motorway camera at more than about 82mph, the cameras flash. It’s a rare trip up the M1 where I don’t see one go off. Not for me though, as I am very observant of the limits.

Is that indicated speed or actual speed? In my car an actual 82 would be pushing 90 on the speedo.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that indicated speed or actual speed? In my car an actual 82 would be pushing 90 on the speedo.

indicated (But mine is fairly accurate)

 

[jfollows]

PePiPoo is where you need to be. That's where the driver nerds hang out. http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t121478.html

Agreed, and it does get posts from knowledgeable people.
However, unlike this forum, it is not well moderated. In my opinion a significant number of people who post there do so to show how clever and knowledgeable they are, rather than providing information which is helpful to people who ask for it.
If you can take the rough with the smooth, and can shrug off gratuitous insults, then it can be a useful place to go. If not, steer clear!

 

[ukcommando]

The Legislation for M42 Junction 7 to 9 (Variable speed limits) states (I presume other orders are similar):



So
i) The speed restriction applies until you pass either a different speed limit or a Nation Speed Limit sign.
ii) The legal minimum is 10 seconds after the sign changes. In practice I expect a longer period would be used as the camera is after the sign and to avoid any legal challenges.

Useful to know. I've just received a ticket for the M25 near J4. 40mph sign came on as I approached a gantry, so started slowing, cautiously enough that no one tail ended me. The next gantry was blank, so folk started to speed up a little, as did I. Then I saw 40mph again on the next gantry and I was definitely down to the limit by time I passed it. I have a strong suspicion that the "blank" gantry was where I was clocked at 47mph, as I saw a flash in my rear view mirror just as I reached the next gantry. The flash was clearly some other poor sucker getting caught in a similar way. So I'm in the position of being annoyed about being flashed at a blank gantry, having had no intention of ignoring the limit, but diddy squat I can do about it. Just have to hope I get the driver training option, and in future try to follow guidance in this thread about making no assumptions until a clear change in speed limit is displayed...

 

[Bald Rick]

Useful to know. I've just received a ticket for the M25 near J4. 40mph sign came on as I approached a gantry, so started slowing, cautiously enough that no one tail ended me. The next gantry was blank, so folk started to speed up a little, as did I. Then I saw 40mph again on the next gantry and I was definitely down to the limit by time I passed it. I have a strong suspicion that the "blank" gantry was where I was clocked at 47mph, as I saw a flash in my rear view mirror just as I reached the next gantry. The flash was clearly some other poor sucker getting caught in a similar way. So I'm in the position of being annoyed about being flashed at a blank gantry, having had no intention of ignoring the limit, but diddy squat I can do about it. Just have to hope I get the driver training option, and in future try to follow guidance in this thread about making no assumptions until a clear change in speed limit is displayed...

Your letter from Kent plod should have included a link to a website which would show pictures of you (or rather, your vehicle) and the speed limit clearly displayed on the gantry. Ie a pic of your vehicle and the gantry in the same frame. If you haven’t got this, then I suggest you seek legal advice.

47 in a 40 is definitely speed awareness territory.

 

[PeterC]

I passed a blank gantry in the middle of a run of 40s yesterday on the M25. No chance of a ticket as the traffic was too heavy

 

[johncrossley]

Useful to know. I've just received a ticket for the M25 near J4. 40mph sign came on as I approached a gantry, so started slowing, cautiously enough that no one tail ended me. The next gantry was blank, so folk started to speed up a little, as did I. Then I saw 40mph again on the next gantry and I was definitely down to the limit by time I passed it. I have a strong suspicion that the "blank" gantry was where I was clocked at 47mph, as I saw a flash in my rear view mirror just as I reached the next gantry. The flash was clearly some other poor sucker getting caught in a similar way. So I'm in the position of being annoyed about being flashed at a blank gantry, having had no intention of ignoring the limit, but diddy squat I can do about it. Just have to hope I get the driver training option, and in future try to follow guidance in this thread about making no assumptions until a clear change in speed limit is displayed...

Please let us know what evidence they have. This is deeply worrying. We basically have a choice of having a lorry crashing into the back of the car or getting a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please let us know what evidence they have. This is deeply worrying. We basically have a choice of having a lorry crashing into the back of the car or getting a ticket.

Does the ticket show what the gantry was actually showing? There are meant to be 2 photos, one of the car and one of the gantry, or with older systems it's superimposed on the photo of the car by way of fibre optics.

Also when did you speed up? If a reasonable distance before the blank gantry, then you may have been caught before you passed it. A blank gantry only means NSL after you have passed it. Most people do speed up towards speed limit signs, and occasionally the Police and vans are positioned to get them!

If you were definitely flashed by the blank gantry, it may (seek legal advice on this!) be sensible to decline the fixed penalty and go to Court.

pepipoo.com is the place for this sort of thing, by the way, it's less well moderated than here but they know their stuff.

 

[ukcommando]

Your letter from Kent plod should have included a link to a website which would show pictures of you (or rather, your vehicle) and the speed limit clearly displayed on the gantry. Ie a pic of your vehicle and the gantry in the same frame. If you haven’t got this, then I suggest you seek legal advice.

47 in a 40 is definitely speed awareness territory.

It did have a link, and (not surprisingly) it wasn't working when I checked. I need to have another look. At present, I've returned the driver confirmation form. If they offer an awareness course, I might take it as arguing the toss is so time consuming. If they want to dish out 3 points, maybe I'll feel different. I am conscious though of the other post(s) earlier in this thread advising not to make assumptions about the first blank gantry with no explicit notice of return to NSL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did have a link, and (not surprisingly) it wasn't working when I checked. I need to have another look. At present, I've returned the driver confirmation form. If they offer an awareness course, I might take it as arguing the toss is so time consuming. If they want to dish out 3 points, maybe I'll feel different. I am conscious though of the other post(s) earlier in this thread advising not to make assumptions about the first blank gantry with no explicit notice of return to NSL.

Because some insurers now ask about courses in the last 5 years, I would personally challenge it in Court (with appropriate legal advice) if the picture shows a blank gantry. Because these things need proof reading manually to check the gantry picture indeed showed the correct limit, I suspect it's a mistake issuing it. This occasionally does happen, e.g. bus companies getting penalties for driving in the bus lane...in a bus.

One should never plead guilty to an offence one has not committed.

I wonder if, if the photo link doesn't work, it's already been cancelled? Is there a phone number you can call on it?