Blackpool Trams

[BestWestern]

Hello All...

Am off to rainy Blackpool at the end of March, anybody know whether I'm likely to get any tram bashing in? I'm not sure whether the system is in total shutdown at the moment or just a decimated winter service?

Also, while we're here, how do other tramfans feel about the whole Blackpool situation? [I apologise if this argument has been had 100 times before, I'm new you see... ] I think it stinks personally. Why the hell would you want to throw away something which is not only a central historic feature of a place, but also a major tourist attraction and revenue generator?! I say throw away as that is essentially what is happening with the 'Tramway' as the world curently knows it. Since a large chunk of the traffic is seasonal, one presumes that BT will now have to work doubly hard to persuade people to flock to travel on something that looks exactly the same as what is probably already operating in their own town! And how on earth do you justify such a lavish spend on a fleet that will spend half the year sat in the depot? It's madness, surely? :-x

The 'disability' arguement never added up at all to me, a Balloon/Brush car etc has a big, flat central loading area which should be able to accomodate a wheelchair pretty easily, parked over on the non-loading side. Platforms could have been built (as indeed they have) with a ramp either carried on board or located at each stop. Simples! Or failing that, a wheelchair position could have been located inside the saloon with a ramp built into the side of the car. It's been done many times as a modification to various different buses and coaches, and BT's bodyshop seem to be able to do just about anything. The whole modernisation idea smacks of being someone's baby, someone presumably with scant concern for historical value, and TBH it's tempting to hope that with a recession doing it's thing, it falls flat on it's backside. Hmmph Anyway, rant over for now, thoughts anyone...??!

 

[Via Bank]

The new trams are to augment the existing fleet, not replace them.

Some of the heritage fleet are also being modified to make them wheelchair-accessible by the time the new DDA regulations kick in, and the unmodified trams will probably still find use on tours.

 

[cainebj]

The tram lines are in total shut down at the moment, while upgrade work is carried out. New tracks are being put into place ready for the new trams, as well as modernisation of the area around them, as part of a huge regeneration project on the Blackpool Promenade, as seen here.

The new trams will be the main stock used on the line on a general day to day basis, whilst the historic balloon cars, and other "special" trams will be used over the peak holiday seasons. The same goes for the conductors. On a general day to day basis, passengers pay the driver on entry, however over peak holiday seasons, a conductor is on board to issue tickets, which also helps loading up the trams quicker to avoid delays.

 

[BestWestern]

The new trams are to augment the existing fleet, not replace them.

Some of the heritage fleet are also being modified to make them wheelchair-accessible by the time the new DDA regulations kick in, and the unmodified trams will probably still find use on tours.

I'm aware of the 'augmentation' view which has been used previously to soothe those who are a tad upset about all this, but in reality it would appear to be quite the other way around. The few remaining Blackpool cars will augment the new core fleet only during the season. The vast majority have already been sold off, seeing the fleet disbanded almost certainly for good. So very much a case of replacement, sadly.

I'm not an obsessed 'dribbler' on this, but I do have many memories of the system, as do so many others, and I find it incredibly sad not only that it is to be changed beyond all recognition, but also that dear old Blackpool has been so short sighted in its ongoing efforts at regeneration as to sweep away so much heritage in one fell swoop, and at such great cost. Shame all round

 

[ChrisCooper]

The core service is going to be the new trams, with the modified balloons (with wider platforms and power doors) operating as extras during the summer and illuminations, probably only Starr Gate to Bispham although it's not been confirmed yet. Basically they will be the equivalent of the heritage Routemasters in London. The rest of the fleet which isn't sold (probably the illuminated cars and the boats, plus the "specials" like 147 and the Corronation only) will see very limited use during the peak season and illuminations, again on short workings. They have already sold off much of the fleet, infact last year they only had enough Balloons left to cover all the double deck turns, so Jubilees (with 3 person crews) or Twins Cars (dragged out of mothball) took over.

Many people are sceptical if the new system will work. It seems a little over the top for what it is, unless it can attract serious growth. I've heard it mentioned that they need loadings similar to Croyden to make it viable. Will the trams be as attractive to tourists during the main season? Tourists (not just enthusiasts) go to Blackpool to travel on the trams. They don't go to Sheffield or Manchester or Nottingham etc to travel on the trams (that's just enthusiasts). I expect the enthusiasts over the season do bring in a fair bit of revenue too. I know a few people who go up a couple of times a year, but all say they will only go once a year or once every few years once the upgrade is done. I also wonder about reliability due to the conditions. Are the new trams going to like all the sand and salt? Running around a city is very different to running up and down the promenade with a howling gale blowing off the Irish Sea.

 

[WatcherZero]

The new trams are stainless steel so they have been built with the conditions in mind. Part of the problem thats brought these changes in is the tramway is just as you describe, a tourist attraction and a loss making one at that. There are a few people who commute on trams but the same things that make them attractive to tourists makes them unsuitable for people going to work, plus the system shuts down in winter.

The idea is that if they provide a regular and reliable year round service then people will use it everyday as a regular form of transport reducing congestion on the seafront, costing less to maintain and they can still put on the tourist season specials. The other problem was that they had to comply with the DDA from 2019 (they had dispensation until that date) if they had carried on as before they wouldnt have been able to run any services, their exploiting the service frequency such that not every vehicle needs to be compliant if a compliant vehicle will shortly turn up and so unmodified trams could still run.

 

[Manxman]

Not sure when this seasons services restart, likely to be in April.
Even if it is earlier most operations will be Centenary Cars then. Still over the summer there 'may' be Boat Cars and Twin sets along side the more modernised Balloons.

David

 

[ChrisCooper]

The new trams are stainless steel so they have been built with the conditions in mind. Part of the problem thats brought these changes in is the tramway is just as you describe, a tourist attraction and a loss making one at that. There are a few people who commute on trams but the same things that make them attractive to tourists makes them unsuitable for people going to work, plus the system shuts down in winter.

The idea is that if they provide a regular and reliable year round service then people will use it everyday as a regular form of transport reducing congestion on the seafront, costing less to maintain and they can still put on the tourist season specials. The other problem was that they had to comply with the DDA from 2019 (they had dispensation until that date) if they had carried on as before they wouldnt have been able to run any services, their exploiting the service frequency such that not every vehicle needs to be compliant if a compliant vehicle will shortly turn up and so unmodified trams could still run.

How many people would actually use the tramway for work anyway, especially off season? It doesn't go anywhere useful. People might use it to go shopping in Blackpool, or to go to Fleetwood or Cleveleys, but we're not talking numbers on the other systems here. It doesn't go near the railway, it doesn't go near the airport (not near enough to make people use it and walk instead of using the buses). Half the problems that make it difficult for everyday users are down to the run down of the current system, not the current system itself. Trams do not start early enough for people to use them into work, and like you say trams don't run in the winter *now* but only because they are closing it for the upgrades over the winter.

I know the DDA issue, and don't deny that something needed to be done, but there were other options such as making some of the Balloons DDA compliant, as they are doing.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If I was running it, I would be very tempted to look at having the tramway take over the Blackpool South branch all the way from Kirkham and Wesham, make the connection with the existing tramway at Starr Gate and close the Squires Gate to Blackpool South section.

I would also look at a spur to the forecourt of Blackpool North station; this would have access to both directions where it joins the promenade tramway.

This would straight away provide a double direct connection with the railway ( making holiday access to the hotels much easier for those arriving by rail )and would release at least two DMUs from the present Blackpool South diagrams to strengthen services elsewhere.

 

[ChrisCooper]

If I was running it, I would be very tempted to look at having the tramway take over the Blackpool South branch all the way from Kirkham and Wesham, make the connection with the existing tramway at Starr Gate and close the Squires Gate to Blackpool South section.

I would also look at a spur to the forecourt of Blackpool North station; this would have access to both directions where it joins the promenade tramway.

This would straight away provide a double direct connection with the railway ( making holiday access to the hotels much easier for those arriving by rail )and would release at least two DMUs from the present Blackpool South diagrams to strengthen services elsewhere.

The former is proposed, although the current proposal is keeping the line as NR and using Tram-Trains which could run onto the Tramway.

A spur up to the station would be very good, and was in place up until the 60s. Could extend further. It is one of the problems at the moment (regardless of fancy new trams) that anyone arriving at North Station has a fair walk to get down to the Trams at North Pier (even more fun in a gale coming off the sea like last time I did it!), and the same in reverse for those from Cleveleys and Fleetwood wanting to get the train. There are other extensions or new routes that would be good too.

I think that is the risk of the new system, they putting a lot of the heritage and tourist value at risk, yet have they done enough to turn it around? I (and many others) fear the Supertrams will not be the magic bullet to save the system. Personally I think the best solution would have been to cut it back to a heritage system running along the promenade (Starr Gate to Little Bispham loop), with or without a conversion of the inland section to Supertram which continued through the town centre via the Station to join the current railway at South Station. Perhaps after Anchorsholm Lane, follow the line of Fleetwood Road (with some nice wide verges for segregated running), Down Talbot Road to North Station, cut through the Centre, much of which is being re-developed anyway, past the site of the former Blackpool Central station to pick up the formation of the old line, past Bloomfield Road (great for match days) and onto South Station. Ok it's money, but what they are doing isn't free. Oh well, at least if it does fail the new trams are newer versions of the Nottingham ones, so would be just right for the extension of that system (if that ever happens).

 

[BestWestern]

Well let's that the renewed network is profitable enough to sustain itself. It would be interesting to know what the projected timescale is before a return is expected to be made; it generally tends to be a decade or two for new systems, and with all the rebuilding here I'd think it would be a fairly long period of non-profit being predicted? The suggestion of a curtailed 'heritage' operation up and down the Prom sounds like a sensible idea, although the fares on Fleetwood market days must contribute a hefty chunk of the overall revenue, so that could be a stumbling block. Having said that BT serves Fleetwood well already with the 14 bus route. What is planned for the Rigby Rd sheds, are they to be incorporated into the bus side of the depot or sold off for flat building etc?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am told that Rigby Road will be retained for the heritage side of things, possibly with a museum area - though given that the financial situation has developed since that was planned, I cannot say if that is still the plan.

 

[umontu]

It would be interesting to see the south Fylde line be connected to the tram network, but this has been talked about for years with little to no avail.

But one problem, where would the tram-trains run to?
Surely they couldn't just terminate at Kirkham and Wesham, could they?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They could as long as they had a dedicated plaform / platforms created alongside the existing station.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I'm sure Tram-Trains would run to Preston, remember they are put forward as Pacer replacements. An actual conversion to Trams would most likely terminate in a new platform at Kirkham and Wesham, which would not be exactly hard to find space for.

There is also the 1 up to Fleetwood too, as well as the 14. Gets very well used at the moment since the trams don't get all the way into Fleetwood. Caught one from Fleetwood Ferry last November, and after a few stops it was packed full. Wasn't even market day. Trams on the other hand were very quiet up that end (hardly anyone seemed to be going beyond Cleveleys, despite them extending the short workings to Thornton Gate). Isn't helped by the fact that they have replaced the double deckers on the 1 with single deckers.

 

[martinsh]

There is also the 1 up to Fleetwood too, as well as the 14. Gets very well used at the moment since the trams don't get all the way into Fleetwood. .

And don't forget that Senior Citizens don't get free travel on the trams ...

 

[umontu]

They could as long as they had a dedicated plaform / platforms created alongside the existing station.

Good luck with them doing that, Northern don't have a proper disabled access to Kirkham and currently the roof is off the stairs without any reason given.
During the recent closure of the line between Preston and Blackpool there wasn't even the slightest clue that trains weren't running (saw many people on the platforms waiting).

Anyway I digress.

I'd imagine that in order to sell the tram train idea to the public they would have to run to Preston.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, it would be a good excuse to improve the station...

 

[sprinterguy]

At the end of the day, the heritage service will also be available during high season catering for the influx of tourists over the core section of the promenade, so it’s the best of both worlds for both year round residents and casual visitors. I’m very pleased that the Blackpool tramways are making the move to modernise.

The Blackpool tram system is currently a very much tourist-focused operation, with no guarantee that Blackpool can continue to rely on tourist revenue for the upkeep of it’s’ trams in the medium to long term future. To make it into a viable local transport option for residents of the area, the Blackpool tramway needs to be more competitive against alternate options of local transport in terms of levels of comfort and journey time if it is to stand any chance of attracting local custom in order to provide a reliable year round income. Currently, the system is laboriously slow throughout it’s’ length, and I would hope that the introduction of the new Supertrams will help to reduce journey times, especially on the sections of segregated track. This is also a healthy step towards the opportunity to provide a year round public transport service, rather than a seasonal tourist line.

Calls for conversion of the Blackpool south branch to tram operation would certainly aid the viability of the tramway as a local service instead of as a novelty attraction for tourists.

 

[WestCoast]

Out of season I really don't know if there is a demand for the new tram service. Many local residents use their cars or the frequent bus service, which is all they need. Part of the problem is that the buses (1 and 14) are considerably cheaper than the tram (you can get a discounted bus day ticket for £3.30 from paypoint agents compared to the bus+tram version which is £6.00).

Regarding the over 60s, if you've not got a Lancashire issued free bus pass, then you pay full fare on the tram. I think if they want to attract more people onto the new trams then they'll have to either drop the tram fares to reach the levels of the buses (or increase the bus prices - which won't be popular:-x).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding the South Fylde line, I think it's packed with potential. It connects South Shore, Blackpool to the Pleasure Beach, St. Annes, Ansdell, Lytham and Kirkham & Wesham. If it ran to Blackpool North, it would be even more useful as it would cover the main bus route from Blackpool - Lytham St. Annes - Preston.

The problem has been little investment - a single track line with pacers and there is only a once an hour service with no service on Winter Sundays. There are no next train indicators. People don't use it often to travel between stops, just to/from Preston mainly. As a tram-train branching from the Promenade I think it would be an excellent transport option. However, it is unlikely to ever be built.

 

[BestWestern]

'sprinterguy', I'm glad that there is an element of belief in the massive expediture on the system, it will be needed if there is any remote chance of the whole project somehow not ending up as a huge white elephant. As has already been said, the network requires expansion if it is to persue a successful future as a modern Supertram operation serving the needs of the local community. Preston would be pretty much the only sensible out of town destination as there is very little in between, or a diverging routemap with spurs to other locations within Blackpool itself; and the sort of massive costings involved in that kind of project are way out of the question for the foreseeable future. Had the request for the current work been tabled a little later with things as they are now, we can presumably reasonably assume that the system would have been staying just as it was for a few more years yet.

With no sign of any expansion coming, what we have is an enormous outlay on some different trams - that is all that anybody will notice after such a prolonged period of work and disruption. This does little other than satisfy the DDA requirements, which could have been met at a much reduced cost by far less indulgent means. The system is indeed a primarily tourist-based operation, and that is because it runs along several miles of Britain's most popular promenade and past a huge number of the town's hotels! How many of Blackpool's locals have a daily need to travel up and down the 'prom? Of the few who do, many will have begun or ended their journey at some other place served by a local bus route and not by the tramway. Indeed, Blackpool Transport has just purchased itself a fleet of shiny new buses (where is all this money coming from in the current climate?!!) which certainly doesn't suggest an anticipated decline in bus usage being just around the corner. The Fleetwood end of the line may provide some local traffic, but hardly enough to justify the investment if it were to be put forward as a business case based purely on that element. With the ongoing investment in Blackpool as a whole, the tourist trade will surely continue to provide most of the ridership (although now of course without the enthusiasts or the regular element who make a journey on a famous 'Blackpool Tram' [remember those?!] for old times sake), and I'd stake a fair wager on low-season being a tough ride, if you'll pardon the awful punning...

 

[ChrisCooper]

On the bright side, at least when the Blackpool system goes under, Nottingham can get some cheap trams for it's expansion, as the Flexity 2s are updated versions of what they already have.

 

[WatcherZero]

I imagine the tram pricing will be reduced, as you said at the moment its a tourist price not a commuter price like the buses. Since the council owns both the bus and trams I dont see them competing much probably see buses rerouted away and identical fares.

 

[sprinterguy]

I imagine the tram pricing will be reduced, as you said at the moment its a tourist price not a commuter price like the buses. Since the council owns both the bus and trams I dont see them competing much probably see buses rerouted away and identical fares.

There definitely has to be some joined up thinking relating to the price of tram fares compared to bus fares, and competition from the established bus services, if the revititalisation of Blackpools’ tramways is to succeed: I believe that modernising the network is the right thing to do, but there is the worry that if not carried out as a complete package of works then the scheme could consist solely of a very expensive fleet of new trams offering nothing new to draw people in.

 

[WestCoast]

I imagine the tram pricing will be reduced, as you said at the moment its a tourist price not a commuter price like the buses. Since the council owns both the bus and trams I dont see them competing much probably see buses rerouted away and identical fares.

Blackpool Transport (100% council owned) has very little common sense in my experience though, they made one of the busiest routes in the Fylde Coast operated by minibuses (7) which caused unnecessary severe overcrowding. They then put the larger buses on a much less used route!

The tram in the winter (and summer) has been available as a local service it's just that people are expected to pay a premium for it and generally the bus is less expensive, more frequent and is more convenient.

 

[MCR247]

I don't understand this, how are they going to get revenue from these new trams? I always thought & presumed that more tourists used the route rather than commuters.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't understand this, how are they going to get revenue from these new trams? I always thought & presumed that more tourists used the route rather than commuters.

That is true in the core section i.e. The Promenade from Bispham to the Pleasure Beach. This is mainly for tourists although some locals do use this section of the route for commuting. One assumes that the tourists use the trams to access the hotels and attractions or just for a ride on a vintage tram. Hence why they are keeping the older "baloon" trams from the 1930s to run in this section during the tourist season.

However, the line is more than just that - it connects Blackpool to its Northern and Southern Suburbs (North and South Shore) and through North to the towns of Cleveleys and Fleetwood. There aren't many tourists wishing to travel to these areas (apart from mainly senior citizens visiting the shops and markets). The challenge is to attract local people to use the new trams for commuting rather that the buses which are cheaper, often faster and more convenient. It's a bit daft considering they are both run by the same company!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the June 2011 edition of Modern Railways, in the Light Rail and Metro update section, there is mention of the integration of the tramway with other forms of local and regional transport as part of the Fydle Coast transport project. Two differing consultancies have been selected and a business case could be ready for examination by Easter 2012.

This is part of an EU five-year Sintropher project, to look at enhancing local and regional transport in five of the peripheral regions of North-West Europe.

Items for discussion will include extensions of the current tramway system to serve both Blackpool Airport and Blackpool North railway station. It will also examine the possible use of diesel and electric tram-train technology to link the tramway to the heavy rail routes which serve both Blackpool North and Blackpool South stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't forget that with Blackpool 'peak season' is much longer than in other seaside towns due to the illuminations in the autumn, which makes the peak season effectively Easter to the first week in November, making less than half the year 'off-peak.'

 

[ChrisCooper]

Don't forget that with Blackpool 'peak season' is much longer than in other seaside towns due to the illuminations in the autumn, which makes the peak season effectively Easter to the first week in November, making less than half the year 'off-peak.'

Then again Rumour is that after this year the Illuminations might either be cut back to end earlier (October half term mentioned) or will only be on at weekends, to save money.