Blackpool to London who would use the service?

[northwichcat]

I'm confused by the suggestions on this thread about running Blackpool - London via Manchester Airport.

At the moment Blackpool - London takes a shade over 1h30. Add on an extra half hour for Manchester Airport - Crewe and you are talking two hours for Blackpool - Crewe.

However changing at Preston (onto existing services) gives you a time easily under three hours (I've spotted a 2h40).

You'd have to sell some freakishly cheap advanced tickets to encourage people to give up an extra three hours on a return Blackpool - London journey.
...
Bolton has no Yorkshire service, Huddersfield has no Blackpool service... not all demand is to go to Manchester or to Manchester Airport, there are some links not being considered.

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make in the original post in this thread.

It's the business people who want the fast market. If the Blackpool-London market is mainly tourists they'll be happier spending 20 minutes extra on a direct train than lugging their suitcases around Preston station to get their 20 minutes quicker. A traveller from London isn't exactly going to do a tram tour of the illuminations and hope to catch a train back to London at 9.30pm.

If there is a market for business travellers for Blackpool to London then introduce the fast direct service. If not it's likely to be a failure so serving more intermediate stops would likely help both the service become a success and open up more direct journeys like Bolton to London.

Like I said in the past a 158 operated service between Blackpool and London worked, while an express loco hauled service failed.

And yes cheap advance tickets make the service more attractive to leisure travellers. However, some of these people will book a hotel weeks or months in advance so buying train tickets for specific services weeks in advance would be no problem.

 

[snail]

Never in a million years could you do Blackpool-London sub-2 hours. 2h20 absolute best I would say.

The direct Preston-Euston trains are timed at exactly 2h00 so I would agree with you.

 

[tbtc]

I think that's ever so slightly inaccurate. Those times are for the current service between Blackpool and Manchester which is an hour and a half. This service would make a quick stop at Preston then go straight down. I would think it would take no longer than 2h30. An extra fast (even non-stop Blackpool to London) could be done at just under 2 hours; with electrification, possibly even faster

I was replying to the suggestion that the existing Blackpool - Manchester Airport service be used as the basis for a London service (which is what TheWalrus was suggesting in the post I quoted).

 

[Lampshade]

The direct Preston-Euston trains are timed at exactly 2h00 so I would agree with you.

Only the non stop ones, 2h14 is the usual timing.

 

[tbtc]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make in the original post.

It's the business people who want the fast market. If the Blackpool-London market is mainly tourists they'll be happier spending 20 minutes extra on a direct train than lugging their suitcases around Preston station to get their 20 minutes quicker. A traveller from London isn't exactly going to do a tram tour of the illuminations and hope to catch a train back to London at 9.30pm.

If there is a market for business travellers for Blackpool to London then introduce the fast direct service. If not it's likely to be a failure so serving more intermediate stops would likely help both the service become a success and open up more direct journeys like Bolton to London.

Like I said in the past a 158 operated service between Blackpool and London worked, while an express loco hauled service failed.

And yes cheap advance tickets make the service more attractive to leisure travellers. However, some of these people will book a hotel weeks or months in advance so buying train tickets for specific services weeks in advance would be no problem.

I was quoting TheWalrus who had suggested extending a Blackpool - Manchester Airport service to London.

I pointed out that this would add around an hour and a half to the journey time (compared with changing at Preston to a service via Wigan).

Any service going via Bolton etc (as you suggest) is not going to be done within twenty minutes of the "change at Preston" time - are you suggesting a Blackpool - Bolton - Manchester - London service, or one which will take just twenty minutes longer than the current (change at Preston) journey?

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was replying to the suggestion that the existing Blackpool - Manchester Airport service be used as the basis for a London service (which is what TheWalrus was suggesting in the post I quoted).

Ah, beg your pardon. I misread slightly. Well the problem with that is that the current Blackpool-Manchester services calls at several intermediate stations in between, for a London service only a call at say Preston or Bolton would suffice.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is there really the call for a non-stop or one call only Blackpool-London service?!

 

[northwichcat]

I was quoting TheWalrus who had suggested extending a Blackpool - Manchester Airport service to London.

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread I have also mentioned speeding up the Blackpool-Airport service and extending it to London. Although, unlike TheWalrus I was basing that on using 221s not a new order of 350s.

Any service going via Bolton etc (as you suggest) is not going to be done within twenty minutes of the "change at Preston" time - are you suggesting a Blackpool - Bolton - Manchester - London service, or one which will take just twenty minutes longer than the current (change at Preston) journey?

I was meaning if the journey options were:

Euston 10:30
Preston 12:39
CHANGE TRAINS
Preston 12:55
Blackpool 13:21

As it is at present

OR

Euston 10:20
Blackpool 13:30

People with luggage, children or the less well able may opt for the direct train and if it's a mainly tourist market for Blackpool then luggage, children and less well able will be commonplace.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is there really the call for a non-stop or one call only Blackpool-London service?!

Realistically where else would it need to call?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Realistically where else would it need to call?

Well if just Blackpool or Blackpool and Bolton only can't fill a 180 etc respectably then more passengers are going to be need to be found!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Well if just Blackpool or Blackpool and Bolton only can't fill a 180 etc respectably then more passengers are going to be need to be found!

This could include a stop at Preston and Crewe.

 

[Nym]

No, but there could well be call for the Glasgow service running to PRE non-stop and the Blackpool service picking up stops between Crewe and Preston, and possibly Stafford and a station or two in the Trent Valley.

PS: Yes, I would definately put the Crewe stops back in.

Something like...

Euston - Watford Junction - Stafford - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston - Blackpool North.

Or if you wanted to run via Manchester, extend one of the Manchetser services onwards to Blackpool via Bolton, would need SDO though, thanks to Chorley...

 

[ValleyLines142]

No, but there could well be call for the Glasgow service running to PRE non-stop and the Blackpool service picking up stops between Crewe and Preston, and possibly Stafford and a station or two in the Trent Valley.

PS: Yes, I would definately put the Crewe stops back in.

Something like...

Euston - Watford Junction - Stafford - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston - Blackpool North.

Or if you wanted to run via Manchester, extend one of the Manchetser services onwards to Blackpool via Bolton, would need SDO though, thanks to Chorley...

Yes, of course it would have to be a quick journey time of about 2h15 max.

 

[Nym]

Why would you want it to be quick? Run to intermediate stations and then you can speed up the Glasgow service making it's first stop Preston.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Why would you want it to be quick? Run to intermediate stations and then you can speed up the Glasgow service making it's first stop Preston.

Because Blackpool-London could be seen as attracting business as well as leisure passengers.

Where does Glasgow come into this? Are you referring to a Blackpool-Glasgow service?

 

[Nym]

No, I'm refering to speeding up the Glasgow service running it non-stop to PRE, and putting the intermediate stops onto the BPN service.

And business, to Blackpool? The hell?

 

[ValleyLines142]

And business, to Blackpool? The hell?

From Blackpool to London. I know someone who lives in Blackpool and commutes to London twice a week, he says its a killer and would pray for a direct train!

 

[PR1Berske]

Realistically where else would it need to call?

BPN - Blackpool North
PRE - Preston
BON - Bolton
MAN - Manchester Piccadilly

and then NO MORE than ONE stop on the way (after Stoke, somewhere Midlands/Southern?)

EUS - London Euston

 

[ValleyLines142]

BPN - Blackpool North
PRE - Preston
BON - Bolton
MAN - Manchester Piccadilly

and then NO MORE than ONE stop on the way (after Stoke, somewhere Midlands/Southern?)

EUS - London Euston

Yes! Exactly! Would it even need to call at Manchester, as they already have their 3tph with Virgin?

 

[tbtc]

Ah, beg your pardon. I misread slightly. Well the problem with that is that the current Blackpool-Manchester services calls at several intermediate stations in between, for a London service only a call at say Preston or Bolton would suffice.

No bother, it gets confusing to keep track of all the ideas once a thread gets this big, I've done it a few times myself...

Is there really the call for a non-stop or one call only Blackpool-London service?!

No.

If there's no need for a non stop London - Birmingham or London - Manchester or London - Leeds then I can't imagine Blackpool justifying such a service...

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread I have also mentioned speeding up the Blackpool-Airport service and extending it to London. Although, unlike TheWalrus I was basing that on using 221s not a new order of 350s

Even if you find a spare path through Manchester (and find some 221s despite the route being fully electrified in a couple of years, and some spare trains to cover the "missed" stops etc) then you are going to struggle to shave much time off the journey from Blackpool to Manchester Airport because there are so many other trains on the line through Bolton/ Oxford Road etc.

I was meaning if the journey options were:

Euston 10:30
Preston 12:39
CHANGE TRAINS
Preston 12:55
Blackpool 13:21

As it is at present

OR

Euston 10:20
Blackpool 13:30

People with luggage, children or the less well able may opt for the direct train and if it's a mainly tourist market for Blackpool then luggage, children and less well able will be commonplace.

Those times sound great, but (as I say above) you'd only save a few minutes off the ninety minute Blackpool - Manchester Airport stretch, so I doubt you could run via Bolton in a time that was anywhere near the one you quoted.

No, but there could well be call for the Glasgow service running to PRE non-stop and the Blackpool service picking up stops between Crewe and Preston, and possibly Stafford and a station or two in the Trent Valley

I suggested this earlier in the thread, give the Wigan/Warrington stops to a Blackpool/Lancaster service, and speed up the Scottish train. That would probably give the kind of twenty minute difference that jcollins was talking about (doing a non-stop London - Preston journey and changing for Blackpool, compared to sitting on a direct train that stops at Warrington etc).

 

[PR1Berske]

Yes! Exactly! Would it even need to call at Manchester, as they already have their 3tph with Virgin?

Fair point. BUT what could you do with a service running from Salford through Piccadilly along platform 13 and into the main line without stopping? Could it be timed without causing delay as an extra service?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Fair point. BUT what could you do with a service running from Salford through Piccadilly along platform 13 and into the main line without stopping? Could it be timed without causing delay as an extra service?

It could do, I'm sure.

 

[PR1Berske]

Then:

Blackpool, Preston, Bolton (on the Chorley line, I assume?), one more station somewhere between Stoke and Watford, Euston


Right, sorted. Where's the ORR email address?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Then:

Blackpool, Preston, Bolton (on the Chorley line, I assume?), one more station somewhere between Stoke and Watford, Euston


Right, sorted. Where's the ORR email address?

Probably either Stafford or Stoke for the one more station between.

 

[Nym]

Why not just extend one of the Manchester terminators through Bolton, be some much welcome capacity on that corridor...

 

[xtradj]

surely easier to just change at preston. Or virgin may do what they do for euston to holyhead and wrexham, ie split one portion to lancaster and one to blackpool once a day for peak times. At liverpool for eg if you want to go to glasgow or north you have to change at wigan. Get over it. Its the most viable way

 

[ValleyLines142]

surely easier to just change at preston. Or virgin may do what they do for euston to holyhead and wrexham, ie split one portion to lancaster and one to blackpool once a day for peak times. At liverpool for eg if you want to go to glasgow or north you have to change at wigan. Get over it. Its the most viable way

Ooh well excuse me! You could say that for Hull which has a London service (with First Hull Trains) to change at Doncaster onto East Coast and Sunderland & Hartlepool (Grand Central) just to change at Darlington, and Bradford has recently had a London service introduced when there's a simple change available at Leeds. There's clearly popular demand for these services. It only would be an open-access operator providing six or seven trains a day, not the full hog like Manchester's 3tph!

 

[Sheepy1209]

I think the business market from Blackpool is bigger than many people realise - especially if you include the still large numbers of civil servants who work in the area (many of these being well-paid senior managers with direct connections to DWP HQ in London) - and then there are their suppliers, especially in IT.

The problem I see though is that very few of those people would take a train from Blackpool North. For those in Fleetwood and Cleveleys it's more convenient to go to Poulton le Fylde, while the residents of St Annes and Lytham would use the Blackpool South line. More to the point, the vast majority of those currently simply drive to Preston and use the multi-storey there.

One thing in my mind though is that currently there is much more off-peak availability from Lancaster than Preston - if a Blackpool service had a similar fares structure then there would be a strong pull away from driving to Preston. Blackpool North would need a proper car park though - or arrangements with the adjacent Wilkinson's car park including safe 24-hour access to the station.


I think a survey of car park users at Preston might paint an interesting picture - see how many have FY postcodes. To say people manage perfectly well with a change at Preston is misleading, because they don't!

 

[ivanhoe]

Sheepys post reminds me of similarities with Shrewsbury here. Many London travellors drive to Wolverhampton . Even when there were direct Open Access trains, they were not business friendly. It's also difficult to park in Shrewsbury so driving to Wolves makes a lot of sense. Therefore having good connections alone will not solve problems. Good parking is essential.

 

[northwichcat]

I know someone who lives in Blackpool and commutes to London twice a week, he says its a killer and would pray for a direct train!

So a daily fast working something like 07:00 Blackpool to London and 18:00 London-Blackpool should fit the bill?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes! Exactly! Would it even need to call at Manchester, as they already have their 3tph with Virgin?

There's two approaches here:

1. The service does a set down only stop at Piccadilly southbound and a pick up only northbound.
2. It replaces the existing Manchester-Crewe-London service. In that case probably set down and pick up restrictions at Crewe would need to be implemented and another service would need to take the Crewe-London passengers.