Blackpool to London who would use the service?

[ValleyLines142]

I have friends who live near Blackpool and 2 or 3 times a year do a Nottingham to Blackpool return journey. Whenever I do this journey and change at Manchester Piccadilly there are usually a large number of other passengers that I see on both trains. A Sheffield to Blackpool service would be a good idea and if ever an additional service each hour is introduced between Sheffield and Manchester this should be a priority.

It isn't just a service from Sheffield to Blackpool that is important but also the links to Bolton and even more so Preston for connections to the WCML.
The connections at Preston perhaps also suggest that a through Nottingham-Blackpool service should also be introduced, or reintroduced as they did run during the 1980's.

Most of this can be done by changing at Leeds though, or would you say its a bit inconvenient?

 

[ashworth]

Most of this can be done by changing at Leeds though, or would you say its a bit inconvenient?

Changing at Leeds, rather than Manchester, significantly increases the journey time due to the slow journey between Leeds and Blackpool. However, it is a route I often use if I have plenty of time becuase Sheffield to Blackpool via Leeds is cheaper than via Manchester.

Indeed the cheapest I can do from my local station of Hucknall near Nottingham is by splitting at Sheffield. Hucknall to Sheffield via Worksop and Sheffield to Blackpool via Leeds. However, because many of the services by this route are hourly, with poor connections, it does take up to 6 hours!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Changing at Leeds, rather than Manchester, significantly increases the journey time due to the slow journey between Leeds and Blackpool. However, it is a route I often use if I have plenty of time becuase Sheffield to Blackpool via Leeds is cheaper than via Manchester.

Indeed the cheapest I can do from my local station of Hucknall near Nottingham is by splitting at Sheffield. Hucknall to Sheffield via Worksop and Sheffield to Blackpool via Leeds. However, because many of the services by this route are hourly, with poor connections, it does take up to 6 hours!

True actually, I didn't think about that. But to be fair changing at Manchester isn't problematic as it's only a fifteen minute change between trains. Still, if it was possible it would be good to have a cross-Manchester service to Blackpool. TransPennine North East cross some journeys such as 1E87 1522 Liverpool-Middlesbrough & 1E92 1922 Liverpool-Hull, 1F60 0600 Hull-Liverpool and 1F61 0613 Newcastle-Liverpool. It would be good if a Cleethorpes could extend through to Preston.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

When the link between Colne and Skipton is eventually reinstated, (why the 10 miles was axed defies all logic) the service could then run through to Leeds.

 

[ashworth]

True actually, I didn't think about that. But to be fair changing at Manchester isn't problematic as it's only a fifteen minute change between trains. Still, if it was possible it would be good to have a cross-Manchester service to Blackpool. TransPennine North East cross some journeys such as 1E87 1522 Liverpool-Middlesbrough & 1E92 1922 Liverpool-Hull, 1F60 0600 Hull-Liverpool and 1F61 0613 Newcastle-Liverpool. It would be good if a Cleethorpes could extend through to Preston.

Changing at Manchester is not a problem and is very easy. It's just considering the number of passengers who do seem to change from the Sheffield direction onto the Blackpool train it may just be a good idea.
Also from a price of fares point of view for me a through train from Nottingham may be useful if cheap advance fares were sold. TPE cheap fares are readily available from Sheffield to Blackpool but there's very few cheap fares from the Nottingham area.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Changing at Manchester is not a problem and is very easy. It's just considering the number of passengers who do seem to change from the Sheffield direction onto the Blackpool train it may just be a good idea.
Also from a price of fares point of view for me a through train from Nottingham may be useful if cheap advance fares were sold. TPE cheap fares are readily available from Sheffield to Blackpool but there's very few cheap fares from the Nottingham area.

Yes. Its that a cross-Pennine service would be good too. Glasgow Trains are looking into possibilities of running a direct service from Nottingham to Glasgow Central. Their plans have yet to be approved, however. Unless this goes via the ECML.

 

[tbtc]

The stopping pattern in Ivanhoe's suggestion are for a London service.

At the moment TPE don't have any spare units to provide a Scottish service to/from Blackpool.

Once the Blackpool line is electrified later in the decade there will be more EMUs around and therefore more scope for giving Blackpool a service to/from Scotland/London.

I see that but what's to stop them splitting one of the 6-car trains at Preston and attaching it to a Blackpool service?

...because there aren't spare 185s to run such a service. If TPE could double up their services to six coaches that easily then there wouldn't be the scrums you see on the Huddersfield line regularly (or two coach trains being used at all).

I have friends who live near Blackpool and 2 or 3 times a year do a Nottingham to Blackpool return journey. Whenever I do this journey and change at Manchester Piccadilly there are usually a large number of other passengers that I see on both trains. A Sheffield to Blackpool service would be a good idea and if ever an additional service each hour is introduced between Sheffield and Manchester this should be a priority.

It isn't just a service from Sheffield to Blackpool that is important but also the links to Bolton and even more so Preston for connections to the WCML.
The connections at Preston perhaps also suggest that a through Nottingham-Blackpool service should also be introduced, or reintroduced as they did run during the 1980's.

This is the problem with the "must divert everything to Manchester Airport" mentality. It means that other links are lost. For example, whilst you used to be able to travel from Sheffield to Bolton/ Preston/ Blackpool, now we have Sheffield - Manchester Airport and Manchester Airport - Bolton/ Preston/ Blackpool. An Airport link is nice, but there are other "cross Manchester" journeys that are lost as a result.

 

[Nym]

True actually, I didn't think about that. But to be fair changing at Manchester isn't problematic as it's only a fifteen minute change between trains. Still, if it was possible it would be good to have a cross-Manchester service to Blackpool. TransPennine North East cross some journeys such as 1E87 1522 Liverpool-Middlesbrough & 1E92 1922 Liverpool-Hull, 1F60 0600 Hull-Liverpool and 1F61 0613 Newcastle-Liverpool. It would be good if a Cleethorpes could extend through to Preston.

Yes, but they all run on the same core part of the TPE network, it isn't like a Barrow - MIA service is being diverted to run to Scarbrough instead of MIA.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Yes, but they all run on the same core part of the TPE network, it isn't like a Barrow - MIA service is being diverted to run to Scarbrough instead of MIA.

Some of them do end up skipping the Airport though. One possible service could be Cleethorpes - Grimsby - Scunthorpe - Doncaster - Sheffield - Stockport - Manchester - Salford - Bolton - Chorley - Preston - Blackpool.

 

[ashworth]

This is the problem with the "must divert everything to Manchester Airport" mentality. It means that other links are lost. For example, whilst you used to be able to travel from Sheffield to Bolton/ Preston/ Blackpool, now we have Sheffield - Manchester Airport and Manchester Airport - Bolton/ Preston/ Blackpool. An Airport link is nice, but there are other "cross Manchester" journeys that are lost as a result.

It has always seemed a great missed opportunity following the opening of the Windsor Link. After a number of years in the 1980's of Nottingham to Glasgow and Nottingham to Blackpool services taking a very slow route around Manchester to access Manchester Victoria, as soon as a link was opened from Manchester Piccadilly everything was diverted to the Airport or Liverpool.

 

[Nym]

I would be very possible yes, but consider the Electrification scheme and moving TPE N Services to the Chat Moss, if one then diverts the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service to Liverpool L St via Stockport and the CLC Route, (The Cleethorpes service arrives at xx:02 and the current Liverpool TPE via CLC service leaves runs to arrive at xx:03 and leave at xx:07, so the timetabling fits!) then it retains two semi fast services between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington Central, and if the 2tph slow services continue to run as previously, it means no change in rolling stock or service levels for the CLC post TPE N moving to Chat Moss.

It would also mean a pretty much standard half hourly patten off Sheffeild to Manchester, same platform, same route, one from Doncaster and Cleethorpes, one from Nottingham and Norwich.

The only problem would be the loss of direct services to Manchester Airport from Sheffeild, but consider that that would also be the last orquard to path across from the fasts to slows service to go, and it makes nice sense.

So yes, diverting away from MIA to BPN may be a nice luxary, but we don't have the stock to do it, since it will be under wires for the entireity of the extension, and theres a better place that service can run to, Liverpool L St and Warrington Central.

 

[northwichcat]

Some of them do end up skipping the Airport though. One possible service could be Cleethorpes - Grimsby - Scunthorpe - Doncaster - Sheffield - Stockport - Manchester - Salford - Bolton - Chorley - Preston - Blackpool.

Privitatision has also directly resulted in services being split as it's easier to maintain good punctuality on shorter services.

I couldn't imagine TPE wanting to run Cleethorpes-Blackpool even if Manchester Airport passenger numbers fell and the franchise commitment was revised so that TPE could run less Airport services. Doncaster/Sheffield to Blackpool maybe but not Cleethorpes to Blackpool.

 

[snail]

...because there aren't spare 185s to run such a service. If TPE could double up their services to six coaches that easily then there wouldn't be the scrums you see on the Huddersfield line regularly (or two coach trains being used at all).

I'm (still) not talking about doubling up trains. TPE run some 6-car trains from Scotland to Manchester Airport. If there are so many wanting to go to Blackpool then splitting one of those at Preston would simply reduce capacity into Manchester. Alternatively, they could send the Scotland section of a train that currently joins a Barrow/Windermere/Blackpool at Preston across to Blackpool, making the Manchester travellers change trains instead. Is electrification really going to make that much difference to the availability of spare units?

 

[TrainfanBen]

A Voyager or 180 would be perfect.

A voyager wouldn't be perfect IMO, (overcrowding issues)

What about MK3's hauled by a HST class 43? maybe with a DVT on the back or a class 67. (Bit like Wrexham and Shropshire).

Maybe We could have An open access operator: "Fylde and Lancashire"

And after electrification possibly put a class 90 on the front.

Where would this rolling stock be sourced from?

 

[northwichcat]

TPE run some 6-car trains from Scotland to Manchester Airport. If there are so many wanting to go to Blackpool then splitting one of those at Preston would simply reduce capacity into Manchester.

So reduce capacity on the busiest section (Preston-Manchester) to add in a new link. Some of the 3 car 185s on Scotland-Manchester services are full and standing leaving Preston and the busier services are 6 car on that section.

What role do DfT employ you in?

 

[snail]

So reduce capacity on the busiest section (Preston-Manchester) to add in a new link. Some of the 3 car 185s on Scotland-Manchester services are full and standing leaving Preston and the busier services are 6 car on that section.

I never said I agreed with the idea, just that it's doable from the current fleet and wouldn't need the magic of electrification to make it work.

I also questioned that if there is a vast untapped market for direct services to Blackpool, wouldn't the current provision have been increased? People seem to manage very well changing at Preston under the present set up.

 

[northwichcat]

People seem to manage very well changing at Preston under the present set up.

Changing at Preston shouldn't be an issue but if a lot of passengers have already changed before reaching Preston, then another change at Preston is unattractive.

 

[142094]

A Sheffield - Blackpool North train would probably work timewise.

Anyone ever been on the YRK - BPN train? Done it once and it takes about 3 hours due to all the stops. Hardly anyone getting on at York was going all the way to Blackpool as well.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Privitatision has also directly resulted in services being split as it's easier to maintain good punctuality on shorter services.

I couldn't imagine TPE wanting to run Cleethorpes-Blackpool even if Manchester Airport passenger numbers fell and the franchise commitment was revised so that TPE could run less Airport services. Doncaster/Sheffield to Blackpool maybe but not Cleethorpes to Blackpool.

Well Cleethorpes doesn't necessarily have to be brought into the equation but I'm just wondering whether a cross-TPE service would work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A Sheffield - Blackpool North train would probably work timewise.

Anyone ever been on the YRK - BPN train? Done it once and it takes about 3 hours due to all the stops. Hardly anyone getting on at York was going all the way to Blackpool as well.

Not being funny but most trains in the country are like that.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A Sheffield - Blackpool North train would probably work timewise.

Anyone ever been on the YRK - BPN train? Done it once and it takes about 3 hours due to all the stops. Hardly anyone getting on at York was going all the way to Blackpool as well.

The key flow on that is probably Preston-Leeds. The extensions west and east respectively tend to cover local trips only.

 

[Nym]

The TPE Sheffeild service arrives at xx02 and the current BPN departures, or PRE departures that could be extended that way off Piccadilly are at... xx16 (Barrow / Lancaster) xx46 Blackpool N and xx54 Preston, occationally with an xx27 Barrow / BPN.

Around xx02 toward OR and xx20 toward Sheffeild we have...

xx01 Liverpool L St via Chat Moss
xx07 Liverpool L St via CLC (That will be going when TPE moves to Victoria)
then the next is the xx16...

In t'other way...

xx03 Airport
xx11 Scarbrough
xx21 Hazel Grove

Draw your own conclusions if you like, but I'm prefering knitting together the Cleethorpes and Manchester - Liverpool section of the current Liverpool - Scarbrough service...

With the current paths, thats a 6min dwell time toward Liverpool, and a 9min dwell time toward Stockport (That is usually running late anyway, scarbrough normally rolls in at xx15)

You could have the Sheffeild bound service moved up to xx18, behind the Airport stopper, but infront of the Hazel Grove, and run on the slows rather than the fasts, by the time you get to stockport you should have just caught up with the previous service, and the Hazel Grove stopper by the time you get there (Buxton service).

 

[142094]

The key flow on that is probably Preston-Leeds. The extensions west and east respectively tend to cover local trips only.

Most probably. However cross-country routes will never be attractive when the journey time is that long. Takes around 30 minutes just to get from York to Leeds.

Not being funny but most trains in the country are like that.

Point is that if people are looking for starting stations for a Service to Blackpool North, York doesn't necessarily spring to mind straight away. As has been said it really is two local services and one long distance put together, I'd say that the effect on York wouldn't be that great if the Blackpool service was withdrawn and they had to change on route, such as by going via Manchester (which is often suggested in the booking engines as it is sometimes quicker than the direct train).

I did some work on York station last year looking at passenger flows. Out of 750 people over a two week duration (stations west of Bradford on the YRK - BPN service)

Blackpool North - 3
Accrington - 2
Blackburn - 1
Burnley Manc. Road - 2
Halifax - 1
Preston - 5

I'd say most of these stations could be accessed without much more hassle if the YRK - BPN service was withdrawn.

 

[tbtc]

Most probably. However cross-country routes will never be attractive when the journey time is that long. Takes around 30 minutes just to get from York to Leeds.



Point is that if people are looking for starting stations for a Service to Blackpool North, York doesn't necessarily spring to mind straight away. As has been said it really is two local services and one long distance put together, I'd say that the effect on York wouldn't be that great if the Blackpool service was withdrawn and they had to change on route, such as by going via Manchester (which is often suggested in the booking engines as it is sometimes quicker than the direct train).

I did some work on York station last year looking at passenger flows. Out of 750 people over a two week duration (stations west of Bradford on the YRK - BPN service)

Blackpool North - 3
Accrington - 2
Blackburn - 1
Burnley Manc. Road - 2
Halifax - 1
Preston - 5

I'd say most of these stations could be accessed without much more hassle if the YRK - BPN service was withdrawn.

The Blackpool - York service is a bit like the Liverpool - Norwich one, filling a number of shorter links, though few would do it "end to end".

The main flow is Leeds - Bradford/ Halifax, plus between Burnley - Blackburn - Preston. But by linking them all together you get a direct service from Leeds/Bradford to Burnley/Blackpool (so no need for any fanciful SELRAP...), you give Bradford a direct link to the ECML at York, you give Leeds/Bradford a direct link to the WCML at Preston... it's going to get even messier when (if?) it becomes Blackpool - Scarborough!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm (still) not talking about doubling up trains. TPE run some 6-car trains from Scotland to Manchester Airport. If there are so many wanting to go to Blackpool then splitting one of those at Preston would simply reduce capacity into Manchester. Alternatively, they could send the Scotland section of a train that currently joins a Barrow/Windermere/Blackpool at Preston across to Blackpool, making the Manchester travellers change trains instead. Is electrification really going to make that much difference to the availability of spare units?

Ah, go ya. But you'd be taking half the capacity away from the Preston/ Bolton/ Manchester section (which is rather busy). Its robbing Peter to pay Paul. Once there are wires to Blackpool, and cascaded EMUs spared from Thameslink etc there should be more spare capacity to play around with such routes.

Yes, but they all run on the same core part of the TPE network, it isn't like a Barrow - MIA service is being diverted to run to Scarbrough instead of MIA.

Whilst there is already a (slowish) link from Blackpool/ Preston to Leeds/York, there's scope for some TPE services to run Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool. Bolton has no Yorkshire service, Huddersfield has no Blackpool service... not all demand is to go to Manchester or to Manchester Airport, there are some links not being considered.

 

[phil8715]

I remember in the 80's all the summer saturdays trains to Blackpool.

There was trains from Dundee, Glasgow, Sheffield. I live about an hour away from Blackpool and find its a easy place to get to.

Blackpool airport started a £10 tax to fly out of Blackpool airport. A lot of people were put off. I used fly to Belfast from there, now I use Liverpool John Lennon.

Blackpool isn't just for people from London, theres people from all over the country come to Blackpool.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[TheWalrus]

Going back to the NWT Blackpool-London service, if it was popular, couldnt it be reintroduced? Im thinking this would involve a FTPEX/NT merger, new 350s then extend a Blackpool-Man Airpt. To London Euston? Maybe even join up with the LM Crewe-London? Just throwing up ideas…

 

[tbtc]

Going back to the NWT Blackpool-London service, if it was popular, couldnt it be reintroduced? Im thinking this would involve a FTPEX/NT merger, new 350s then extend a Blackpool-Man Airpt. To London Euston? Maybe even join up with the LM Crewe-London? Just throwing up ideas…

I'm confused by the suggestions on this thread about running Blackpool - London via Manchester Airport.

At the moment Blackpool - London takes a shade over 1h30. Add on an extra half hour for Manchester Airport - Crewe and you are talking two hours for Blackpool - Crewe.

Assuming you have 125mph tilting stock, you'd need at least another ninety minutes to get from Crewe to London (so 3h30 is the best possible time). But with a 350 (neither 125mph nor tilting) you'd presumably take over four hours - over five hours if you ran in the path of the LM Crewe service.

However changing at Preston (onto existing services) gives you a time easily under three hours (I've spotted a 2h40).

You'd have to sell some freakishly cheap advanced tickets to encourage people to give up an extra three hours on a return Blackpool - London journey.

 

[Nym]

Whilst there is already a (slowish) link from Blackpool/ Preston to Leeds/York, there's scope for some TPE services to run Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool. Bolton has no Yorkshire service, Huddersfield has no Blackpool service... not all demand is to go to Manchester or to Manchester Airport, there are some links not being considered.

I'm all in favour of a service between Bolton and Yorkshire, but what I'd be looking at doing is that when TPE electrification is done etc. Then handing over the Calder Valley Semis to TPE, and if we're short of airport paths, run the Barrow / Windermere services through the Calder Valley and on to Leeds via Victoria. With the Scotland service taking the old Barrow / Lancaster path through Oxford Road.

But that would depend on what I had in mind for the 185 re-allocation and Northern Citylink plans coming to fruition, that being that TPE would be absorbed into a greater northern franchise (excluding Manchester - Scotland, that would be in the hands of ICWC).

The current TPE operations would become a "Northern Citylink" sub-brand with 1st class and AP fares available (As TPE is now) and displaced 185s from MIA - Blackpool & Scotland and TPE North will be sent over to express routes in Northernland, some I have come up with include: (As the diesel displacements, other services may gain the same service level with EMUs, like Manchester - Liverpool, but this would be happening anyway)

Calder Valley Semi Fasts (Manchester Airport - Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Leeds - Leeds East Parkway)
Manchester Airport - Southport
Scarbrough - Blackpool North via Blackburn
Additional Scarbrough - York shuttle

If linespeeds can be improved:
Buxton - Manchester
Additional 1tph of Chester - Manchester via Warrington BQ.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Point is that if people are looking for starting stations for a Service to Blackpool North, York doesn't necessarily spring to mind straight away. As has been said it really is two local services and one long distance put together, I'd say that the effect on York wouldn't be that great if the Blackpool service was withdrawn and they had to change on route, such as by going via Manchester (which is often suggested in the booking engines as it is sometimes quicker than the direct train).

I did some work on York station last year looking at passenger flows. Out of 750 people over a two week duration (stations west of Bradford on the YRK - BPN service)

Blackpool North - 3
Accrington - 2
Blackburn - 1
Burnley Manc. Road - 2
Halifax - 1
Preston - 5

I'd say most of these stations could be accessed without much more hassle if the YRK - BPN service was withdrawn.

I agree, and some people between Preston and even as far as Leeds regularly go to Blackpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm confused by the suggestions on this thread about running Blackpool - London via Manchester Airport.

At the moment Blackpool - London takes a shade over 1h30. Add on an extra half hour for Manchester Airport - Crewe and you are talking two hours for Blackpool - Crewe.

Assuming you have 125mph tilting stock, you'd need at least another ninety minutes to get from Crewe to London (so 3h30 is the best possible time). But with a 350 (neither 125mph nor tilting) you'd presumably take over four hours - over five hours if you ran in the path of the LM Crewe service.

However changing at Preston (onto existing services) gives you a time easily under three hours (I've spotted a 2h40).

You'd have to sell some freakishly cheap advanced tickets to encourage people to give up an extra three hours on a return Blackpool - London journey.

I think that's ever so slightly inaccurate. Those times are for the current service between Blackpool and Manchester which is an hour and a half. This service would make a quick stop at Preston then go straight down. I would think it would take no longer than 2h30. An extra fast (even non-stop Blackpool to London) could be done at just under 2 hours; with electrification, possibly even faster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A voyager wouldn't be perfect IMO, (overcrowding issues)

What about MK3's hauled by a HST class 43? maybe with a DVT on the back or a class 67. (Bit like Wrexham and Shropshire).

Maybe We could have An open access operator: "Fylde and Lancashire"

And after electrification possibly put a class 90 on the front.

Where would this rolling stock be sourced from?

The current service between Hull, Bradford and Sunderland is operated by five car 180s.

I don't think MK3s would do it. It would probably have to be a DMU such as a 180 or a Voyager/Meridian set of some sort. Or if electrified, the new Hitachi Super Express, similar to that ordered for First Great Western upon electrification of the South Wales Main Line.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

An extra fast (even non-stop Blackpool to London) could be done at just under 2 hours; with electrification, possibly even faster.

Never in a million years could you do Blackpool-London sub-2 hours. 2h20 absolute best I would say.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Never in a million years could you do Blackpool-London sub-2 hours. 2h20 absolute best I would say.

Possibly so, if it has to cross through the Manchester/Crewe paths.