Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[edwin_m]

I have to say that I find it regrettable that Network Rail are not attempting to prioritise either the Bolton or the Stalybridge scheme, with a view to getting a few more DMUs displaced in a shorter timeframe, rather than working on both simultaneously (or so it seems from the published dates).

I'm sure there will be a good reason, but it's not immediately clear what that reason might be.

Isn't the problem here the lack of terminating capacity in Manchester from the west, meaning that electrification to Stalybridge is necessary to give EMUs from the Bolton line somewhere to turn back? Also, apart from the Hazel Grove train (which I think goes somewhere else in the future) anything else that currently runs via Bolton and Preston continues to Blackpool or another non-electrified destination.

 

[Viscount702]

I think as things are now the need to get the wires to Stalybridge is more to do with the electricity feeder station which is to be sited there to feed the extended wires.

I can't think of any electric traction going into Victoria or through it from the December 2017 timetable change. The only current service the Liverpool stopper will from then go to the airport.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think as things are now the need to get the wires to Stalybridge is more to do with the electricity feeder station which is to be sited there to feed the extended wires.
I can't think of any electric traction going into Victoria or through it from the December 2017 timetable change. The only current service the Liverpool stopper will from then go to the airport.

Are you suggesting Victoria-Preston will have wires by Dec 2017 but no electric trains using them?
I find that quite hard to believe.

 

[Mordac]

Isn't the problem here the lack of terminating capacity in Manchester from the west, meaning that electrification to Stalybridge is necessary to give EMUs from the Bolton line somewhere to turn back? Also, apart from the Hazel Grove train (which I think goes somewhere else in the future) anything else that currently runs via Bolton and Preston continues to Blackpool or another non-electrified destination.

Wasn't the plan to get the TPE Scottish trains to go via Bolton once again when the line to Preston was electrified?

 

[Viscount702]

Are you suggesting Victoria-Preston will have wires by Dec 2017 but no electric trains using them?
I find that quite hard to believe.

I think the trouble is we don't yet know what services Arriva will be operating.

As I understood all the discussion so far based on speculation and rumour is that come December 2017 any any electric units operating from Preston and/or Bolton would be going South rather than to Victoria ie Hazel Grove or maybe somewhere else.

The hope is that Blackpool will still be wired by May 2018 at which point I would think there will be among others a Blackpool-Victoria/Stalybridge service. You really need the wires to go to Wigan as well but we don't know when that will be but looking at CP6 at present.

 

[deltic08]

Isn't the problem here the lack of terminating capacity in Manchester from the west, meaning that electrification to Stalybridge is necessary to give EMUs from the Bolton line somewhere to turn back? Also, apart from the Hazel Grove train (which I think goes somewhere else in the future) anything else that currently runs via Bolton and Preston continues to Blackpool or another non-electrified destination.

The short-sighted rebuild of Victoria in the 1990s on a smaller footprint and less platforms with that monstrosity on top is the cause of reduced capacity at both ends. Nothing can be done now to increase the number of platforms for decades when growth is still continuing at 6% per annum and possibly more after completion of the triangle electrification and new trains. Developers have a lot to answer for.

 

[notlob.divad]

Manchester as a major destination in the Middle of the country should not have terminating platforms. Look at London right now. With the exception of London Bridge, all of the major stations in London are limited to terminating platforms. So we are spending Billions of pounds to tunnel between the stations so that the trains can run through to increase the capacity.

City areas need terminating platforms on the edge of their commuter belts to turn around the urban stopping trains. Intercity trains need to go as far as they can before turning around. This maximizes the throughput on city centre platforms allowing the expensive city centre land required by the station to be minimized. Piccadilly is the problem with its 12 terminating platforms all facing the same way.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Manchester as a major destination in the Middle of the country should not have terminating platforms. Look at London right now. With the exception of London Bridge, all of the major stations in London are limited to terminating platforms. So we are spending Billions of pounds to tunnel between the stations so that the trains can run through to increase the capacity.

The Victorians are often lauded as great engineers but in other areas (land owners et al) very short sighted.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Victorians are often lauded as great engineers but in other areas (land owners et al) very short sighted.

I don't think we can blame the Victorians, but it would be foolish not to learn from the mistakes of the past and yet we are not doing.

Within the next 10 years we will be able to get from Birmingham to London, from London to Paris and from Paris to Bordeaux by High Speed Train. The tracks for each leg of the journey will all be built to the same European Standard so trains are interchangeable. And yet, you will still have to disembark the train in London, walk down the road to a different station to get on the train to Paris. At Paris, you will have to get off the train and use the Metro to cross the city to get on the train to Bordeaux.

We are repeating exactly the same mistakes. The HS1-HS2 link may and I repeat may alleviate the London bit for a handful of through journeys, but what is the point if everyone has to not only change trains but change stations in Paris. It is crazy.

Back to Blackpool to Manchester Electrification, any re-modelling / Re-building / New building of Manchester's stations, should be looking to let trains run through the stations. From Blackpool, Lancaster, Windermere right through to Buxton, Stoke, Crewe, Sheffield and beyond all without the trains turning around. It is a hell of a lot easier to put a couple of sets of buffer stops in the middle of a through platform to make two terminating ones (if you must) than it is to dig up half a city to turn terminating platforms into through ones.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think the trouble is we don't yet know what services Arriva will be operating.

As I understood all the discussion so far based on speculation and rumour is that come December 2017 any any electric units operating from Preston and/or Bolton would be going South rather than to Victoria ie Hazel Grove or maybe somewhere else.

The hope is that Blackpool will still be wired by May 2018 at which point I would think there will be among others a Blackpool-Victoria/Stalybridge service. You really need the wires to go to Wigan as well but we don't know when that will be but looking at CP6 at present.

The Franchise Agreement TSR for Dec 2017 requires 3tph between Preston and Manchester via Chorley and Bolton. One has to be the Blackpool-Airport and I presume another will continue to go to Hazel Grove, since there is a requirement for an hourly through service between Bolton/Salford Crescent and Levenshulme/Heaton Chapel. I should think the third will go to Victoria as at present. So any or all of the three could be electric from Dec 2017 if they terminate at Preston until the Blackpool wires are up. I believe I read somewhere upthread that there will have to be a period of total closure of the Blackpool North branch at some stage for remodelling/resignalling?

 

[snowball]

I believe I read somewhere upthread that there will have to be a period of total closure of the Blackpool North branch at some stage for remodelling/resignalling?

Before the Hendy review it was going to be at the beginning of 2017 but when it will now be I don't know.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Before the Hendy review it was going to be at the beginning of 2017 but when it will now be I don't know.

The windows of opportunity are winter 2016/17, or winter 2017/18. There's an enormous reluctance of have a closure during the summer season and during the Christmas light switch on.

The previous plan, as you mention was end of 2016 and beginning of 2017.

OLE doesn't necessarily need to go in at the same time, but would be easier if it did.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The windows of opportunity are winter 2016/17, or winter 2017/18. There's an enormous reluctance of have a closure during the summer season and during the Christmas light switch on.

The previous plan, as you mention was end of 2016 and beginning of 2017.

OLE doesn't necessarily need to go in at the same time, but would be easier if it did.

Surely it doesn't matter when it's put up at Blackpool, considering it's all going to come into use at the same time? Might as well get it done at the most convenient time.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Surely it doesn't matter when it's put up at Blackpool, considering it's all going to come into use at the same time? Might as well get it done at the most convenient time.

As mentioned above - Summer - huge tourist season, Illuminations -absolute no-no - so that leaves November 2016-Dec 2016 but avoid run up to xmas and Jan + Feb 2017 - that makes sense IMHO.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Surely it doesn't matter when it's put up at Blackpool, considering it's all going to come into use at the same time? Might as well get it done at the most convenient time.

That's the idea, doing everything at the most convenient time. If you can't get access during a blockade, it could mean doing it piecemeal over a series of weekends, perhaps a couple of months worth, depending on what possessions are available for use there AND elsewhere.

 

[Greybeard33]

That's the idea, doing everything at the most convenient time. If you can't get access during a blockade, it could mean doing it piecemeal over a series of weekends, perhaps a couple of months worth, depending on what possessions are available for use there AND elsewhere.

If Northern's rolling stock plan requires Blackpool-Manchester services to be EMU-operated from the Dec 2017 timetable change (rumoured on another thread they are getting 12 more 319s), it matters whether or not the wires are up by then. If there is a Dec 2017 to Jan 2018 blockade at Blackpool, there will have to be bustitution anyway. If the track remodelling is finished but the OHLE is not ready, a temporary Blackpool-Preston DMU shuttle might be needed.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If Northern's rolling stock plan requires Blackpool-Manchester services to be EMU-operated from the Dec 2017 timetable change (rumoured on another thread they are getting 12 more 319s), it matters whether or not the wires are up by then. If there is a Dec 2017 to Jan 2018 blockade at Blackpool, there will have to be bustitution anyway. If the track remodelling is finished but the OHLE is not ready, a temporary Blackpool-Preston DMU shuttle might be needed.

Don't get too hung up trying to match rolling stock with timetable changes, we've introduced electric traction outwith a TT change already for Northern and it's quite likely to happen again, I'd say.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If Northern's rolling stock plan requires Blackpool-Manchester services to be EMU-operated from the Dec 2017 timetable change (rumoured on another thread they are getting 12 more 319s), it matters whether or not the wires are up by then. If there is a Dec 2017 to Jan 2018 blockade at Blackpool, there will have to be bustitution anyway. If the track remodelling is finished but the OHLE is not ready, a temporary Blackpool-Preston DMU shuttle might be needed.

Nov 2016 looks ideal then - or Nov 2016 -- --- Feb 2017 timeframe - so no worries about Dec 2017.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Nov 2016 looks ideal then - or Nov 2016 -- --- Feb 2017 timeframe - so no worries about Dec 2017.

We've also got Alliance Trains (assuming they don't drop dead in the midst of DB selling Arriva, if that indeed happens) and their electric Blackpool North to London Euston paths to make happen at some point in 2018 too.

It's also not unreasonable for Nov 2017 to Feb 2018 for a May 2018 TT (or slightly later) start of services for both Northern and Alliance. It's tight but should be do-able.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's also not unreasonable for Nov 2017 to Feb 2018 for a May 2018 TT (or slightly later) start of services for both Northern and Alliance. It's tight but should be do-able.

A blockade is fine for Blackpool North itself, and Kirkham (some significant rationalisation needed I think), but you don't get the wires up in 6 weeks.
It will take the best part of 2 years to do the whole route, so they need to start soon.
At least the clearance work is mostly done (not sure about the 4 bridges through Poulton, maybe track lowering needed there).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

A blockade is fine for Blackpool North itself, and Kirkham (some significant rationalisation needed I think), but you don't get the wires up in 6 weeks.
It will take the best part of 2 years to do the whole route, so they need to start soon.
At least the clearance work is mostly done (not sure about the 4 bridges through Poulton, maybe track lowering needed there).

We're all referring to the Blackpool North blockade, which as I've stated previously, ideally needs to fit around summer tourist season and illuminations switch on. This has been specifically requested by Blackpool Council and local businesses, and we do have a duty of care to them, as well as to our passengers who could be put into difficult or even dangerous positions if we try and do the blockade and put in place alternative transport for the wrong dates.

I'm well aware of the total time it will take to electrify the route, which is why planning work is ongoing, trial excavations have been undertaken and structural steel erection begins in earnest very shortly.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Enhancements-Delivery-Plan-Update.pdf

I notice some errors in the report re dates on the Manchester- Blackpool scheme.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Enhancements-Delivery-Plan-Update.pdf

I notice some errors in the report re dates on the Manchester- Blackpool scheme.

What's up ?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Enhancements-Delivery-Plan-Update.pdf

I notice some errors in the report re dates on the Manchester- Blackpool scheme.

What's up ?

In future when I am reading in bed late at night I will take a highlighter pen. Cant find it - unless my eyes were tired. If I do I will post.

 

[snowball]

I thin it's easier to use the online version for such purposes - you can search for relevant words.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Ground investigation ongoing at Bolton for the new footbridge required for P5, and I note that the service bridge at Orlando Street has now gone.

 

[Chrisyd]

Ground investigation ongoing at Bolton for the new footbridge required for P5, and I note that the service bridge at Orlando Street has now gone.

What is the new footbridge for? Is it to link what remains of the car park to the platform, as surely passengers are going to use the same stairs as Platform 4. Also, are there any thoughts to replicate platform 2 (i.e a 4 carriage bay platform) and create platforms 5 and 6?

 

[ianhr]

What is the new footbridge for? Is it to link what remains of the car park to the platform, as surely passengers are going to use the same stairs as Platform 4. Also, are there any thoughts to replicate platform 2 (i.e a 4 carriage bay platform) and create platforms 5 and 6?

Are there any plans of the proposed new track layout for platform 5?

 

[LDECRexile]

Paul and I had our first joint jaunt of the year on Monday.

Family commitments, health, unphotogenic weather and, most of all, the expectation of lack of visible action have kept us both elsewhere. I'd begun to wonder what used to be so much fun, this trip restored the faith.

We simply took a train to Man Vic, me from Southport, Paul joining at Wallgate. Coffee and photos at Vic, on to Salford Central then walked to MOSI via the preliminary Ordsall Chord works, back to Salford then home.

There has been de-veging (cutting down trees) between Hindley and Lostock Junction.

Drainage work seems to be plodding along between Lostock Junction and Dean Clough.

Couldn't make owt of the footbridge work at Bolton, we'd need to get off and have a look to see. We don't understand what the bridge is for, as Platforms 4 and 5 are two sides of an island. Can someone please explain?

From moving trains the big bridge south of Bolton station (aaagh, I've forgotten its name!!) looks close to being ready to go. If I remember right March was the target, wasn't it?

Couldn't see any evidence of trackside work between Bolton and Salford Central.

Great to belt through Farnworth Tunnel with the driver's foot hard down, must have been at or near 75 mph. Still a few Orangemen working at Farnworth station. Lots of track materials stacked immediately north of Moses Gate.

Man Vic looked good in the sun.

The glass canyon created by the growing skyscrapers on and near Manchester Exchange is very striking.

Nowt much new to see at Salford Central.

Our walk to MOSI was pleasant, interesting and confusing. Neither of us knows the area well enough to properly get our bearings, so we took three zillion photos which I will continue to try to make sense of to share, but for now they're in the Head Scratching Box. Suffice it to say there's a lot happening on the ground, but it's not all clear to us what's what.

I have added some shots where I'm on safe territory and will add some more of Manchester Exchange Canyon when I get chance, but life has become fuller while I've been "away".

I've added the initial narrow selection of photos to Paul's album and the 2016 onwards Blackpool-Manchester Electrification album in the traditional way, ie:

Paul's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

It's good to be back.

 

[snowball]

From moving trains the big bridge south of Bolton station (aaagh, I've forgotten its name!!) looks close to being ready to go.

Orlando Street.