Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[MidnightFlyer]

Is that what the Sectional Appendix says, or from observation? Just yesterday I came across a photo of a 4-car 310 unit in blue and grey sitting in Preston 4C.

The Sectional Appendix states platform 3c as 75m and 4c as 76m.

 

[AndyW33]

Platforms 3C and 4C can only take about 3 carriages maximum (too short for 4 car EMU)

The Sectional Appendix states platform 3c as 75m and 4c as 76m.

Fair enough, then. No 4-car EMUs are going to be using those platforms in future.

 

[CAF397]

A 3-car 185 just fits, and that's 6' from the buffer stops, and probably 6-8' clear of the signal at the end. 185s are about 70m long.

 

[Class 170101]

Is that what the Sectional Appendix says, or from observation? Just yesterday I came across a photo of a 4-car 310 unit in blue and grey sitting in Preston 4C. Now a 4-car 310 is/was less than a metre shorter than a 4 car 319 unit. Of course that might be crucial in putting the driver the wrong side of the signal, so really what the book says is what matters.

Standback rules from signals (for sighting) may have changed since the days of 310s and 312s.

 

[CAF397]

Indeed, and TOC defensive driving instructions tells us to stop at least 6 feet from buffer stops, so that precludes that bit of the platform for use. Those 304s (I have seen one in the bay at Preston) must've touched buffers with the block ends to squeeze in!

 

[edwin_m]

If the buffer stops have been replaced in the meantime with friction ones, then those would probably reduce the available length.

The bays are of little use anyway because they are on the "fast" side of the station and most short terminating trains would be on the "slow" side.

 

[Elecman]

Isn't there a proposal to bring the present RES(PCD) through platform into use as a passenger platform, and possibly use the opposite face Christian Road siding platform as a southbound bay?

 

[Class 170101]

Looks like possessions for wiring Preston to Blackpool have appeared.

No trains at weekends between Preston and Blackpool North and South January 2 2017 to March 26 2017. Also between 21:50 to 04:55 Monday to Thursday nights through most of the year it seems.

 

[snowball]

Looks like possessions for wiring Preston to Blackpool have appeared.

No trains at weekends between Preston and Blackpool North and South January 2 2017 to March 26 2017. Also between 21:50 to 04:55 Monday to Thursday nights.

Or are they for resignalling? I thought that was to happen first.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Looks like possessions for wiring Preston to Blackpool have appeared.

No trains at weekends between Preston and Blackpool North and South January 2 2017 to March 26 2017. Also between 21:50 to 04:55 Monday to Thursday nights.

Or are they for resignalling? I thought that was to happen first.

Re-signaling precedes - but as I have said numerous times in threads like these - surely they can do some bases -or at least something while they have possession - surely it is commonsense unless I am totally naïve.

 

[Class 170101]

The text makes reference to Electrification and Northern Hub - no mention of re-signalling from what I could see.

 

[BelleIsle]

Looks like possessions for wiring Preston to Blackpool have appeared.

No trains at weekends between Preston and Blackpool North and South January 2 2017 to March 26 2017. Also between 21:50 to 04:55 Monday to Thursday nights through most of the year it seems.

What about Blackpool South?

 

[Class 170101]

What about Blackpool South?

There will be no trains to this station either at the times in my previous posting.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

What about Blackpool South?

There will be no trains to this station either at the times in my previous posting.

Weird - you would think they could still run a shuttle from Kirkham to Blackpool South -saves on buses surely?

 

[snowball]

Weird - you would think they could still run a shuttle from Kirkham to Blackpool South -saves on buses surely?

Probably there's work in the vicinity of the junction at Kirkham.

Despite the fact that the wording says electrification I still think it may be track or signalling.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Probably there's work in the vicinity of the junction at Kirkham.

Despite the fact that the wording says electrification I still think it may be track or signalling.

That makes more sense - it is all in CONNECTION WITH electrification so strictly true. Does not preclude putting in some bases on Kirkham Station etc at the same time.

 

[Viscount702]

Its the usual cover up. Just as with Victoria- Stalybridge. Said to be works in connection with electrification but their own press release then went on to say track and drainage which I understand is work due to be done under the Hub and not directly connected with electrification

 

[Hophead]

So far as I'm aware, no-one is contracted to install electrification at present.

 

[snowball]

Its the usual cover up. Just as with Victoria- Stalybridge. Said to be works in connection with electrification but their own press release then went on to say track and drainage which I understand is work due to be done under the Hub and not directly connected with electrification

I think it's ridiculous to use the words "cover up". It's necessary preliminary works for electrification. In the GWML threads we've been reading about the damaging consequences of trying to do resignalling and electrification simultaneously.

 

[Viscount702]

I think it's ridiculous to use the words "cover up". It's necessary preliminary works for electrification. In the GWML threads we've been reading about the damaging consequences of trying to do resignalling and electrification simultaneously.

I didn't mention signaling and neither did NR. This pure track work which can be done at any time and is not directly linked to electrification so why say it is.

 

[Class 170101]

So far as I'm aware, no-one is contracted to install electrification at present.

Track Access tends to be applied for ahead of hiring contractors to carry out the work from what I see - and, on occasion from experience, extra access has been asked for once the contractor is appointed and they have their feet under the table.

 

[snowball]

I didn't mention signaling and neither did NR. This pure track work which can be done at any time and is not directly linked to electrification so why say it is.

Do you have actual information that it's not linked to the electrification?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

If I may interject?

The only reason that Blackpool North, Kirkham and Poulton are being remodelled is because, as ane fule kno, electrifying a dog's breakfast of unfit-for-purpose rubbish located on the wrong alignment seals the fate of the line for quite a while; much more effective to remodel first, then electrify*. Sadly, both phase 3 and 5 are controlled by legacy mechanical boxes which require legacy labour to modify; so, these get re-signalled and re-controlled (e.g. swept away) and controlled from Manchester ROC, Fylde Workstation.

What you're seeing is the start of all this work, much of which will be recoveries, re-ballasting and alignment tamping.

There is also the secondary the issue that the ARS in the ROC gets confused because the Blackpool South line has no train detection so it can't see what's going on until the Colne flyer suddenly presents itself ... so that needs re-signalling too.

* that is pretty much the whole reason that Bolton is being remodelled on phase 4 (in early summer 2017) followed by finishing off the wires in time for the December 2017 timetable change.

So far as I'm aware, no-one is contracted to install electrification at present.

Volker Rail seem awfully upbeat ...

 

[LeylandLen]

Yes a good 3 months is needed to rebuild Blackpool North station,and associated trackwork with better sidings , maybe with more retail space. Its not very impressive now so should be an improvement especially with all the rebuilding work being done in the town; after all tourism is Blackpool's main business . It needs to be in the 21st century !

 

[Class 170101]

Would it not be easier / more productive to wire Blackpool South whilst they have all those blocks for Blackpool North at the same time? Seems a little short sighted.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would it not be easier / more productive to wire Blackpool South whilst they have all those blocks for Blackpool North at the same time? Seems a little short sighted.

Did you mean to say resignal Blackpool South rather than wire? I wasn't aware that the Fylde Coast branch was being wired.

Presumably once the closures for wiring North start, once they've got beyond Kirkham junction the South line will be able to remain open? It's a shame that a loop couldn't be put in with the resignalling as even if the service isn't increased permanently a second path each hour would help while North is being done. £2m or so for a loop is no big deal in the grand scheme of the NW Electrification project really...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Did you mean to say resignal Blackpool South rather than wire? I wasn't aware that the Fylde Coast branch was being wired.

Presumably once the closures for wiring North start, once they've got beyond Kirkham junction the South line will be able to remain open? It's a shame that a loop couldn't be put in with the resignalling as even if the service isn't increased permanently a second path each hour would help while North is being done. £2m or so for a loop is no big deal in the grand scheme of the NW Electrification project really...

I think Class 170101 is meaning whilst the route to Blackpool North is closed for S&T to work their magic, electrification could be doing theirs on the Fylde Coast. We know it's not planned currently for electrification but it could have been a quick and cheap 'win'.

That would probably be achievable now, but when it was all planned, there wasn't intended to be big windows where piling plant, RRVs, wiring plant etc was sitting unused.

 

[LDECRexile]

Paul and I did our first joint jaunt of 2016 yesterday, a train trip Wigan Wallgate-Bolton-Salford Cres-Salford Central-Man Vic, walk the new tram route and works, Oxford Rd-Wigan NW. A grand day out for next to nowt.

Photos on the 2016 Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

and also put Paul's shots in his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

 

[NotATrainspott]

If you wire the Blackpool South route as it is then you'll also be locking it in to its current form, which wouldn't be particularly sensible. If the route is to remain part of the National Rail network, then you would want to add that loop to allow the extra trains an hour that would make electrification justifiable in the first place. If it will end up being converted to tram operation, then there's not a vast amount of point in doing the works for 25kV AC when there's no clear reason why you would ever want to run NR trains on it again.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If you wire the Blackpool South route as it is then you'll also be locking it in to its current form, which wouldn't be particularly sensible. If the route is to remain part of the National Rail network, then you would want to add that loop to allow the extra trains an hour that would make electrification justifiable in the first place. If it will end up being converted to tram operation, then there's not a vast amount of point in doing the works for 25kV AC when there's no clear reason why you would ever want to run NR trains on it again.

It's possible to electrify a route without locking it in to its current form, but it needs a clear plan of what its future form is going to be.

It just means being careful with the positioning of masts, moving signalling equipment into the correct positions and fitting portals and twin track cantilevers instead of single track cantilevers. The way the fourth tracking at Huyton has been prepared is indicative of what can be done.

It is of course sort of moot if there's to be tram operation instead, but tram-train operation could make use of 25kV AC using the Vossloh Class 399 type trams Sheffield have acquired, and allow shared operation between NR and Blackpool trams, though I don't know how floor height issues can easily be overcome without completely rebuilding the route for trams.