Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[edwin_m]

It's possible to electrify a route without locking it in to its current form, but it needs a clear plan of what its future form is going to be.

It just means being careful with the positioning of masts, moving signalling equipment into the correct positions and fitting portals and twin track cantilevers instead of single track cantilevers. The way the fourth tracking at Huyton has been prepared is indicative of what can be done.

It is of course sort of moot if there's to be tram operation instead, but tram-train operation could make use of 25kV AC using the Vossloh Class 399 type trams Sheffield have acquired, and allow shared operation between NR and Blackpool trams, though I don't know how floor height issues can easily be overcome without completely rebuilding the route for trams.

Presumably enough of the junction at Kirkam will be wired that electrification to Blackpool South could be done at a later date if approved, without any further disruption to the North service.

Any tram-train on the Blackpool South line would presumably connect to the existing tramway near Pleasure Beach, and it would be easier to replace high platforms with low ones south of there than try to add high platforms on the sea front. Therefore it would be a low-floor tram-train as per Rotherham, not a high-floor one like Manchester are considering. Separate high and low platform sections would be needed at Kirham and at Preston if the service continued to there, on the same or different tracks. Salwick could probably be made tram-train only, as its service is pretty minimal.

Dual-voltage tram-trains would be needed unless the service only ran as far as Kirkham and had its own dedicated track there (in which case it wouldn't even be a tram-train). Between Kirham and the tramway junction in Blackpool either voltage could be used but 25kV would probably be preferred because it could be fed from wherever feeds the Preston-Blackpool line, whereas the DC option would need several new substations. This section would most likely become tram-only, allowing simpler signalling on the one or more passing loops that would be needed to provide a decent service. However it might still be part of Network Rail with trains visiting under possession for engineering work.

 

[po8crg]

I've suggested a couple of times doing a pure tram conversion to Kirkham (with dedicated track there) and then, when HS2 arrives, flying the tramline over the railway and building new track up to the new HS2 station before then going on-street into Preston.

But doing it as a sort-of tram-train would allow for 25KV power (aside from the on-street running in Preston) and would allow the use of a pair of flat junctions through Kirkham rather than a flyover.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Presumably enough of the junction at Kirkam will be wired that electrification to Blackpool South could be done at a later date if approved, without any further disruption to the North service.

Yeah, weekend possessions to join up the wiring and do testing, and should be pretty much sorted.

It's in Tier 2 of the Rail North future electrification report, if that helps with any of the tram conundrums.

 

[Elecman]

I've suggested a couple of times doing a pure tram conversion to Kirkham (with dedicated track there) and then, when HS2 arrives, flying the tramline over the railway and building new track up to the new HS2 station before then going on-street into Preston.

But doing it as a sort-of tram-train would allow for 25KV power (aside from the on-street running in Preston) and would allow the use of a pair of flat junctions through Kirkham rather than a flyover.

Why would you run pure tram over the line from Kirkham to Preston? The answer for Blackpool South to Preston is tram train ala Sheffield an additional length of reduced height platform at Kirkham reducing the platform height at Salwick and reducing the height of the former PCD bay platform at Preston. Use 25 Kv electrification to wherever the connection between the 2 systems will be ( Pleasure Beach or Squires Gate .

 

[snowball]

It's in Tier 2 of the Rail North future electrification report, if that helps with any of the tram conundrums.

So about CP10 at the post-Hendy rate of progress.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So about CP10 at the post-Hendy rate of progress.

I am a little more optimistic than you.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So about CP10 at the post-Hendy rate of progress.

We thought Tier 1 would be CP6, 7 and 8, Tier 2 would be 8, 9 and maybe 10, Tier 3 would be 10, 11 and maybe 12, so yeah, it could be.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like possessions for wiring Preston to Blackpool have appeared.
No trains at weekends between Preston and Blackpool North and South January 2 2017 to March 26 2017. Also between 21:50 to 04:55 Monday to Thursday nights through most of the year it seems.

Sounds to me like remodelling/resignalling (on the timescale previously advised), followed by OHLE work until Dec 2017.
That would fit with Salford-Euxton by Dec 2016, which seems possible if they get a move on soon (still no new CP5 NR milestones to go on).

 

[cool2005]

whats going to happen when they start the electrify of the line? at blackpool north

 

[Philip Phlopp]

whats going to happen when they start the electrify of the line? at blackpool north

You'll need to clarify the question.

What specifically do you want to know about ?

 

[cool2005]

You'll need to clarify the question.

What specifically do you want to know about ?

will they close the station while they do it? and are they sttill doing it at the end of the year?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

will they close the station while they do it? and are they sttill doing it at the end of the year?

Three month closure was planned, December 2016 onwards. It was to be restricted to December - February/March for least disruption to trade, at request of Blackpool authorities (closure was initially planned for mid 2016, starting at the end of the school holiday season and through to Christmas light switch on, if memory serves).

I don't know if it has slipped with the rest of the timetable, or whether it's still on for this coming Christmas onwards.

The work can be separated out if necessary - electrification could be done during overnight closures, it's only the throat remodelling and perhaps the resignalling that needs a lengthy closure.

 

[Class 170101]

I think Class 170101 is meaning whilst the route to Blackpool North is closed for S&T to work their magic, electrification could be doing theirs on the Fylde Coast. We know it's not planned currently for electrification but it could have been a quick and cheap 'win'.

That would probably be achievable now, but when it was all planned, there wasn't intended to be big windows where piling plant, RRVs, wiring plant etc was sitting unused.

Yes and before anyone says where would you run a service to - how about Windermere. There is probably no economic link between them as such but then I doubt there is between lackpool South and Colne either,

 

[Joseph_Locke]

... Salford-Euxton by Dec 2017 ..

Fixed that for you, now don't make me have to correct you again

 

[AndyW33]

Yes and before anyone says where would you run a service to - how about Windermere. There is probably no economic link between them as such but then I doubt there is between lackpool South and Colne either,

While not Blackpool South specifically, there certainly is an economic link between the towns on the Colne line and Blackpool. People have been visiting Blackpool for day trips or holidays from there in large numbers for well over a century now. Around 400,000 people are served by stations between Colne, Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn. I'm sure having a through service right to Blackpool Pleasure Beach helps to overcome the high risk of the train being a Pacer.

 

[po8crg]

Will Blackpool South be kept open while Blackpool North is closed, or is the closure also going to include the line between K&W and Preston?

 

[cool2005]

if they do close blackpool north hopefully they will do the station up to make it better its like walking into a hall and northing there and through winter its really cold in there. its be nice to see a bigger ticket place and more shops in there and clean windows on the roof.

 

[42626]

I see the temporary platform extension at Blackrod has been removed - cost saving exercise because of the delay?

 

[BelleIsle]

Three month closure was planned, December 2016 onwards. It was to be restricted to December - February/March for least disruption to trade, at request of Blackpool authorities (closure was initially planned for mid 2016, starting at the end of the school holiday season and through to Christmas light switch on, if memory serves).

I just hope the usual shutdown on the South branch during January/February Sundays is cancelled.

Yes and before anyone says where would you run a service to - how about Windermere. There is probably no economic link between them as such but then I doubt there is between lackpool South and Colne either,

Purely for 'operational efficiency' from what I understand. You just have to look at the long dwell times at Preston as virtually the entire train gets off for it to refill again that Fylde-East Lancas is not the answer. What people want is for direct Manchester trains as it used to be many years ago, preferably the Airport. This would also fit in well with electrification.

While not Blackpool South specifically, there certainly is an economic link between the towns on the Colne line and Blackpool. People have been visiting Blackpool for day trips or holidays from there in large numbers for well over a century now. Around 400,000 people are served by stations between Colne, Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn. I'm sure having a through service right to Blackpool Pleasure Beach helps to overcome the high risk of the train being a Pacer.

Mainly summer weekends and bank holidays. What would be more useful is if they could find another suitable destination at such times. Such services tend to be a pair of two car units due to loadings but the back unit is locked out of use East of Preston due to short platforms. Instead, run it somewhere else and have them join/divide at Preston.

if they do close blackpool north hopefully they will do the station up to make it better its like walking into a hall and northing there and through winter its really cold in there. its be nice to see a bigger ticket place and more shops in there and clean windows on the roof.

After being caught out by the Talbot Gateway development just outside the council may not want event more retail units. For me, the big question is how they are going to integrate the tram extension into the site.

 

[76020]

Looks like electrification work is due to start very soon
Please see link below:-

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...electrification-between-manchester-to-preston

Network Rail has tweeted this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYxPfuAWYAEKuXs.jpg

It suggests that something is about to happen, contrary to the fears expressed in #2343.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I see the temporary platform extension at Blackrod has been removed - cost saving exercise because of the delay?

No, it was temporary.

 

[apb63]

According to the Lostock consultation documents the timescale for Manchester-Bolton-Preston work is:
Late Feb 2016 - start to install foundations
March 2016 - start to install steel structures
July 2016 - start to install overhead wires between Euxton Junction and Lostock and then move on to the Lostock to Salford stretch.
According to Network Rail completion of electrification work between Manchester and Preston is expected by the end of 2017. Most of the work will be carried out at night and with weekend closures. Longer closure may be needed to rebuild the platforms at Chorley

 

[thealexweb]

In all the weekend closures Bolton had last year, was any significant electrification performed? Excluding tunnel work obviously.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm sure having a through service right to Blackpool Pleasure Beach helps to overcome the high risk of the train being a Pacer.

Which one is more of a white knuckle ride?

 

[snowball]

In all the weekend closures Bolton had last year, was any significant electrification performed? Excluding tunnel work obviously.

Do you count the raising and reconstruction of overbridges between Salford and Chorley, as documented by LDECRexile and his helpers? My impression is that the bridgeworks (and some track lowering and relaying) were the main reasons for the weekend closures.

 

[thealexweb]

Do you count the raising and reconstruction of overbridges between Salford and Chorley, as documented by LDECRexile and his helpers? My impression is that the bridgeworks (and some track lowering and relaying) were the main reasons for the weekend closures.

Oh yes I forgot about the track relaying. I just wondered how feasible it would have been for a team to be making bases at a different location(s) during the closures.

 

[driverlewis]

Hi haven't read the hole forum but don't GNWR need network rail to electrify it before their services can start

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Hi haven't read the hole forum but don't GNWR need network rail to electrify it before their services can start

Alliance Rail open access London to Blackpool ?

We'll have the route electrified before their rolling stock arrives, if it's in fact ordered (it has been claimed on here it's not yet finalised).

 

[Lurpi]

Alliance Rail open access London to Blackpool ?

We'll have the route electrified before their rolling stock arrives, if it's in fact ordered (it has been claimed on here it's not yet finalised).

Are they over-promising then? This from the Great North Western Railway web page:

Services outlined are planned to start in 2016 following the introduction of new rolling stock, and the considerable task of negotiating acceptance of the proposals through the industry’s mechanisms which is currently being udertaken [sic]

 

[42626]

No, it was temporary.

But was never used. I understood it was to accommodate the longer EMUs.