Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[Dixie]

Looking at Google maps, there appears to be a path over the tunnel from Church Road near to the motorway bridge (marked in red), and another path running alongside the cutting from the new bridge westwards to the above path (green).

Has anyone tried exploring these to see if they are open and whether any viewing points exist? It may be that they've been officially closed due to being in the vicinity of the works.

 

[LDECRexile]

Looking at Google maps, there appears to be a path over the tunnel from Church Road near to the motorway bridge (marked in red), and another path running alongside the cutting from the new bridge westwards to the above path (green).

Has anyone tried exploring these to see if they are open and whether any viewing points exist? It may be that they've been officially closed due to being in the vicinity of the works.

The red one goes through what is now the major worksite on top of the tunnel. You may be able to blag your way through, I haven't tried.

The green one continuing from Church Road to the footbridge is the steep compressed mud one I described, there is no view from it due to foliage.

I have asked locals about the one on the north side of the tracks and have been told that it is comprehensively fenced off behind trees at sufficient distance from the launch pad to make viewing impossible.

They could have lied, been mistaken or misunderstood me or I might be doing the same. If you do a recce and find different please let us know.

 

[Dixie]

Cheers Dave. If I get an opportunity I'll have a look. In the meantime, if anyone else is in the area, can I please ask you check the area out to see if there's any access to these paths and whether there's a view or not.

 

[Elecman]

The Red one actually runs directly through the Contractors compound and worksite and is defiantly off limits to anyone except those directly involved in the project.

 

[furnessvale]

Now that Blackpool North to Preston is now moving down the order for electrification, I presume that Preston to Manchester will be completed by 2016?

Is it moving down the order in relation to other schemes, or possibly just slipping like all schemes as NR find they have been over ambitious?

 

[snowball]

Now that Blackpool North to Preston is now moving down the order for electrification, I presume that Preston to Manchester will be completed by 2016?

Is it moving down the order in relation to other schemes, or possibly just slipping like all schemes as NR find they have been over ambitious?

Welcome to the forum, Furness. That's a more-than-one-year-old post that you're asking about.

Two or three years ago Preston-Blackpool was supposed to be completed by the end of 2015 (which is why it's called Phase 3 whereas Manchester-Preston is phase 4) but over quite a short period of actual time its official date slipped to Feb 2017, allegedly because of the growth in scope of associated track and signalling alterations, some of which are to precede the actual electrification. The Blackpool North area is to be remodelled and the last I heard that was supposed to take place at the beginning of 2017.

I don't know what a realistic date for Blackpool would be now. Probably some time in 2017.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know what a realistic date for Blackpool would be now. Probably some time in 2017.

Phase 1/2 each took essentially 24 months, for 15/30 route miles respectively.
Preston-Blackpool is 18 miles, so I'd guess 18 months from when the first base goes in.
But with progress stalled on Manchester-Preston, dates must be slipping.
It's a pity that so few DMUs are released by Phase 4, with most of the cascades depending on Preston-Blackpool being wired too.

 

[po8crg]

It's a pity that so few DMUs are released by Phase 4, with most of the cascades depending on Preston-Blackpool being wired too.

I'm assuming the Manchester-Blackpool TPE service will be EMUs after electrification. Do we have any idea about what EMUs? I'd have thought that 319s wouldn't seem suitable for a TPE service - the 156s currently covering it are not really acceptable, but can be lived with as a temporary measure.

Ideally, you'd want a regional-express EMU, like the 380 or the 350/4, but there really aren't many of those around, and a small order just for that one route (and possibly Manchester/Windermere) seems unlikely. Might be stuck with whatever can be cascaded until North TP electrification and the inevitable big TPE order.

I just wish that DfT had moved Liverpool and Manchester to Scotland back to ICWC in the current franchising round, and got the next franchisee to buy some more Pendolinos for those services. Then the 350/4s could do Blackpool and Windermere.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm assuming the Manchester-Blackpool TPE service will be EMUs after electrification. Do we have any idea about what EMUs? I'd have thought that 319s wouldn't seem suitable for a TPE service - the 156s currently covering it are not really acceptable, but can be lived with as a temporary measure.

Ideally, you'd want a regional-express EMU, like the 380 or the 350/4, but there really aren't many of those around, and a small order just for that one route (and possibly Manchester/Windermere) seems unlikely. Might be stuck with whatever can be cascaded until North TP electrification and the inevitable big TPE order.

I just wish that DfT had moved Liverpool and Manchester to Scotland back to ICWC in the current franchising round, and got the next franchisee to buy some more Pendolinos for those services. Then the 350/4s could do Blackpool and Windermere.

The expectation is that all Blackpool services will become Northern-operated.
TPE are also expected to get new trains, with the 350s (and some 185s) moving to Northern.
Anything else will be 319s
The idea seems to be that services moving from TPE to NT won't suffer a downgrade, but 10x350s won't go far.
None of this is contracted yet, and might change.

 

[thealexweb]

Phase 1/2 each took essentially 24 months, for 15/30 route miles respectively.
Preston-Blackpool is 18 miles, so I'd guess 18 months from when the first base goes in.
But with progress stalled on Manchester-Preston, dates must be slipping.
It's a pity that so few DMUs are released by Phase 4, with most of the cascades depending on Preston-Blackpool being wired too.

Will Phase 4 alone release any DMUs at all without Phase 3? The only diagram that could have easily moved over to EMUs was the Hazel Grove to Preston but this will be extended to Blackpool North from October so for now a no go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm assuming the Manchester-Blackpool TPE service will be EMUs after electrification. Do we have any idea about what EMUs? I'd have thought that 319s wouldn't seem suitable for a TPE service - the 156s currently covering it are not really acceptable, but can be lived with as a temporary measure.

Ideally, you'd want a regional-express EMU, like the 380 or the 350/4, but there really aren't many of those around, and a small order just for that one route (and possibly Manchester/Windermere) seems unlikely. Might be stuck with whatever can be cascaded until North TP electrification and the inevitable big TPE order.

I just wish that DfT had moved Liverpool and Manchester to Scotland back to ICWC in the current franchising round, and got the next franchisee to buy some more Pendolinos for those services. Then the 350/4s could do Blackpool and Windermere.

There's only so much capacity they can cut away from Bolton. Does anyone remember when double Class 185s were quite common through Bolton pre-December 2013? Then these become double Class 156s. And maybe a single Class 319 now with even fewer seats? If the next Northern Rail wants to go down the route of using refurbished Class 319s for Blackpool North services that's great and I would support it if they are doubled up to eight car at peak times.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will Phase 4 alone release any DMUs at all without Phase 3? The only diagram that could have easily moved over to EMUs was the Hazel Grove to Preston but this will be extended to Blackpool North from October so for now a no go.
There's only so much capacity they can cut away from Bolton. Does anyone remember when double Class 185s were quite common through Bolton pre-December 2013? Then these become double Class 156s. And maybe a single Class 319 now with even fewer seats? If the next Northern Rail wants to go down the route of using refurbished Class 319s for Blackpool North services that's great and I would support it if they are doubled up to eight car at peak times.

I think they will chop and change services to get some EMUs on the Manchester-Preston route, Hazel Grove being the obvious one.
Maybe other services will be split at Preston for a year or so.
The Scotland services will come back, at least.

 

[L+Y]

The idea seems to be that services moving from TPE to NT won't suffer a downgrade, but 10x350s won't go far.

Bit of a thought linked to this: could the shortly-to-be-homeless ex-Heathrow 360s join the 350/4s with Northern, perhaps? A mixture of four and five car EMUs, all of which are largely compatible and can be maintained by Siemens at Ardwick, would, I imagine, quite nicely cover Manchester-Blackpool and Manchester-Windermere regional express type services, with room to spare.

How many diagrams are the current Blackpool workings?

Blue sky thinking!

 

[BantamMenace]

Bit of a thought linked to this: could the shortly-to-be-homeless ex-Heathrow 360s join the 350/4s with Northern, perhaps? A mixture of four and five car EMUs, all of which are largely compatible and can be maintained by Siemens at Ardwick, would, I imagine, quite nicely cover Manchester-Blackpool and Manchester-Windermere regional express type services, with room to spare.

How many diagrams are the current Blackpool workings?

Blue sky thinking!

Rather have them on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines maintained with the Siemens 333s instead of the 321s that currently cover a couple of diagrams. (purely from a selfish personal perspective)

 

[Domh245]

360s aren't compatible with 333s. Add to that the fact that the 350s and 360s are a lot more closely related than the 360s and the 333s

 

[BantamMenace]

360s aren't compatible with 333s. Add to that the fact that the 350s and 360s are a lot more closely related than the 360s and the 333s

i wasnt suggesting multiple working, just them being based at Neville Hill for use instead of the 321 on the Airedale and Wharfedale services

 

[LDECRexile]

Joe Callaghan has kindly sent two shots of work under way on Farnworth's northbound platform, together with this important note:

TBM is now supposed to be here and being assembled at Kearsley end.

I will check this out tomorrow and let you know.

Boring should start on July 22. And finish Sept. 8.

Not much to see now at Farnworth end.

Once the bore has started that will be it for about 6 - 7 weeks at Farnworth end, apart from platform work.

Joe

I've added the shots to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157651953947345

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648767927083

Thank you Joe

 

[snowball]

Once the bore has started that will be it for about 6 - 7 weeks at Farnworth end, apart from platform work.

Joe

Does that mean demolition and reconstruction of Cemetery Road bridge won't start until the rebore is completed?

Does anyone know how Moses Gate is getting on? Last time I was there they didn't appear to have started on rebuilding the southbound platform. Next day someone said they had started. They've apparently got about 15 weeks to finish that, slew the track, and demolish and rebuild the northbound platform.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think there's any new news in this article but there's a nice picture of the tunnel illuminated by its ventilation shaft (now being blocked up):

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/13421103.display/

 

[Viscount702]

Why is the work at Moses Gate being carried out because I didn't know there was any need to slew the track there.

 

[snowball]

Why is the work at Moses Gate being carried out because I didn't know there was any need to slew the track there.

I don't think any permanent change is proposed to the horizontal alignment of the tracks at Moses Gate.

I think the tracks are being lowered to give electrification clearance under Bolton Road bridge, and it would seem that this requires complete demolition and reconstruction of the platforms.

At least, the southbound platform was demolished simultaneously with the one at Farnworth, so I've been assuming the northbound platform will also be demolished and rebuilt.

I assume the track will soon have to be temporarily slewed, as has happened at Farnworth, to take the active line away from the northbound platform so it can be demolished and rebuilt. However this can't happen yet as the southbound platform is still being rebuilt (unless they've managed to rebuild it in the 3 weeks or less since I last saw it).

I originally expected the southbound platform at Moses Gate to be rebuilt simultaneously with the one at Farnworth but that didn't happen, so more stages of temporary slewing are required than would have been.

 

[LDECRexile]

Joe Callaghan has kindly sent this image of Network Rail's info to locals, such as him.

There is some slippage on the TBM's arrival.

Thank you Joe

EDIT:

Joe's just sent me this:

Hi David. I discovered today that an attempt has been made to re-estate the foot path from the bottom of Church Rd. down to the new footbridge at Kearsley.

Walk down Church Rd. and go about 50 Mtrs along the dirt road. Look to your left a new public foot path sign has been erected next to a new flight of steps.

I didn't go right down the path today because I had shorts on and no jacket, blackberry bushes over hang to path in places and I was getting scratched .

I will try again tomorrow weather permitting.

The TBM is said to be coming to site this weekend...Joe

Thanks once more Joe

 

[snowball]

Many thanks to LDECR and Joe for that.

7 Jul as the date for arrival of the TBM is presumably a typo for 17 Jul - which is now today!!

Demolition and reconstruction of Cemetery Rd bridge seems pretty quick at 5-7 Sep. I imagine that's just the length of time the works affect the railway and doesn't include the time taken to divert the pipes and cables back to the main bridge and reopen it to pedestrians and cars.

Edit: I wonder why the bridgework is timed to be just when the TBM is getting to the Farnworth end? Why not do it earlier so that the two jobs don't get in each other's way?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I don't think any permanent change is proposed to the horizontal alignment of the tracks at Moses Gate.

There is. The eagle-eyed of you with long memories will remember that when the Moses Gate crossover and traps went in there was a 30mph TSR that stayed on until the bi-di operation stated; this was because the tracks through Moses Gate were not at a standard interval (too close together) and a "wiggle" had to happen between the crossover (which has a standard interval, to allow it to be recovered and re-used) and the platform. The platform heights were also badly wrong, so the with the track lowering as well the time was right to sort it all out.

 

[LDECRexile]

Good news

I've just received this from a senior Orangeman:

Me: 'Has Dean Clough bridge reopened to the public?'

Reply:

Yes it's been open since Tuesday, still finishing off but open to the public.

Well done all concerned.

Bridgeoscope below

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There is. The eagle-eyed of you with long memories will remember that when the Moses Gate crossover and traps went in there was a 30mph TSR that stayed on until the bi-di operation stated; this was because the tracks through Moses Gate were not at a standard interval (too close together) and a "wiggle" had to happen between the crossover (which has a standard interval, to allow it to be recovered and re-used) and the platform. The platform heights were also badly wrong, so the with the track lowering as well the time was right to sort it all out.

Wonderful info as usual Mr Locke - thank you

 

[snowball]

Two NR press releases.

One is about Grimeford Lane bridge near Adlington. Readers may recall that work on that was paused earlier this year due to traffic congestion when several nearby bridges were closed simultaneously. Work will resume on 27 Jul for completion 16 Nov. It's described as the final bridge to be done in Bolton.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-in-bolton-as-part-of-electrification-project

The other press release is about the Darwen doubling:

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...lway-upgrade-between-clitheroe-and-manchester

 

[thealexweb]

Good news

I've just received this from a senior Orangeman:

Me: 'Has Dean Clough bridge reopened to the public?'

Reply:


Well done all concerned.

Bridgeoscope below

I look forward to seeing it soon and hopefully getting a few pictures.

 

[Bevan Price]

The expectation is that all Blackpool services will become Northern-operated.
TPE are also expected to get new trains, with the 350s (and some 185s) moving to Northern.
Anything else will be 319s
The idea seems to be that services moving from TPE to NT won't suffer a downgrade, but 10x350s won't go far.
None of this is contracted yet, and might change.

But I thought the new TPE trains were intended to be emus - for the now postponed trans-pennine electrification ?? I don't see TPE getting new dmus for what might be 10 years or less, and that means that the 350/4s will not be available for moving to Northern for several years.

So, in the short term, it must be very likely that 319s get used on services transferred
from TPE to Northern, at least until the mid-2020s.

 

[WatcherZero]

If they procured Bi-modes the diesel engines could easily be removed after a decade leaving EMU's.

 

[LDECRexile]

AM9 has kindly sent a fine film taken from a carriage window passing from Kearsley to Moses gate.

Joe Callaghan has paid his first visit to the Kearsley side of the tunnel for a while and rewarded us with his first film and the sort of shots which are his hallmark - clear, sharp and focused on the business in hand.

I've added AM9's film to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157651885501412

and Joe's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157651953947345

and all of them to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648767927083

Thank you both, AM9 and Joe.

Glad you're mending thealexweb, maybe we'll meet at the Ladybridge demolition a week tomorrow?

Dave

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But I thought the new TPE trains were intended to be emus - for the now postponed trans-pennine electrification ?? I don't see TPE getting new dmus for what might be 10 years or less, and that means that the 350/4s will not be available for moving to Northern for several years.
So, in the short term, it must be very likely that 319s get used on services transferred
from TPE to Northern, at least until the mid-2020s.

We'll have to see what the DfT is prepared to authorise.
TPE are asked in the ITT to consider new services (to Crewe, Liverpool, Newcastle-Edinburgh) and they can't operate those without more stock.
With no date for TP wires it's not easy to see what will happen beyond the status quo.