Blackfriars-Herne Hill and the Sutton/Wimbledon loop pre Thameslink

[BRX]

The image above shows a simplified diagram of the Thameslink network as it was in 1988.

I'm trying to piece together the ways in which the service on the Sutton Loop changed with the introduction of Thameslink. As I understand it:

- The first Thameslink operation began in 1988, and this involved the core through service from the Midland Mainline to the Brighton Mainline, plus a branch to Orpington & Sevenoaks via Bromley
- Through trains to Brighton took a mixture of routes through South London, going via London Bridge, Crystal Palace and Streatham
- Thameslink trains first started going around the Sutton Loop in 1995

Is that correct so far?

My main questions are:

- In that initial Thameslink service, did the trains going to/from Brighton that didn't go via London Bridge stop at all stops through South London or did they mostly run fast?
- Before Thameslink started operating the "Sutton Loop", were there any services doing that circular route, or did that only come with Thameslink?
- Before Thameslink started operating on the stretch between Blackfriars and Herne Hill, what was the basic service pattern on that section of line - where were most services going to/from? At the London end would they all have been terminating at Blackfriars?
- I've seen reference to British Rail plans to withdraw all non peak services from Loughborough Junction in 1992. Would that have been anything to do with Thameslink proposals?
- Any tips for finding PDF Thameslink timetables for the period 1988-1995 online?

 

[jfollows]

https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/SO_506bb63b-dadf-497e-901d-1673556bcffd/ for working timetables for the period.
Public timetables may be there if you look around.
Section WF I think is what you want.

 

[Taunton]

Pre-Thameslink the loop service operated from London Bridge, via Peckham Rye to Streatham, thence via Wimbledon, Sutton, and Mitcham Junction, and back to Streatham and London Bridge - or the other way round. Half hourly both ways. Blackfriars services shared a common route with this between Tulse Hill and Streatham, then went via Norbury to West Croydon, also every 30 minutes.

Blackfriars was one of the points where the Central and South Eastern divisions both ran in, and in the days of EPB stock this was shared between the Divisions, so a few diagrams ran into here from West Croydon, and went back out again to Orpington or Dartford. Before Thameslink the main terminus was Holborn Viaduct rather than Blackfriars.

 

[BRX]

https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/SO_506bb63b-dadf-497e-901d-1673556bcffd/ for working timetables for the period.
Public timetables may be there if you look around.
Section WF I think is what you want.

Thanks! That gets me back to 1994 at least.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2025 ==

Pre-Thameslink the loop service operated from London Bridge, via Peckham Rye to Streatham, thence via Wimbledon, Sutton, and Mitcham Junction, and back to Streatham and London Bridge - or the other way round.

This is pre 1988, is that right?
Looking at the 1995 timetable I can see that the loop service is operating via Blackfriars & Herne Hill, as it does today.
In the 1994 timetable I don't see a loop service operating out of either Blackfriars or London Bridge.
So pre 1988-ish there was a loop service from LB, and post 1995-ish from Blackfriars/Herne Hill, and inbetween those dates, neither - is that right?

 

[Jaydubya]

Guildford via Herne Hill and West Croydon was a short lived Thameslink destination in the early 1990s

Herne Hill continued to be served by a limited number of Brighton trains at peak times until the introduction of Class 700 trains in summer of 2016 or 2017. The signs to Herne Hill platforms 3 and 4 still refer to trains to Brighton!

 

[BruceTee]

In response to that 1st question, when I moved to my current house in early 1992, I could catch a northbound service from Brighton that stopped only at Tulse Hill, then fast to Blackfriars. And, in the late 1990's I caught a southbound service (sorry don't remember its destination) at Tulse Hill again which then ran fast to East Croydon. I think it ran via Crystal Palace and not Streatham Common. I pretty sure these services only did this in peak hour, I assume to avoid all the crossings needed aa you approach London Bridge to then access Blackfriars.

 

[Magdalia]

- The first Thameslink operation began in 1988, and this involved the core through service from the Midland Mainline to the Brighton Mainline, plus a branch to Orpington & Sevenoaks via Bromley
- Through trains to Brighton took a mixture of routes through South London, going via London Bridge, Crystal Palace and Streatham

From 1988 to 1994 the Brighton Main Line service was only 2tph, one to/from Brighton and one to/from Gatwick. Off peak trains ran via London Bridge but most peak time trains ran via Tulse Hill because there was no capacity at Borough Market.

The Sevenoaks/Orpington trains took the paths of trains that had previously run to/from Holborn Viaduct. For part of this period trains ran to/from Sevenoaks via both Orpington and Otford.

Holborn Viaduct closed in 1990 and was replaced by City Thameslink.

The Guildford service only ran in 1992 and 1993. It sort of continued in 1994 but only to/from West Croydon.

 

[norbitonflyer]

At different times the loop service ran from Holborn Viaduct or London Bridge, and returned either via Mitcham Junction or West Croydon to one or other of the London termini.

İ commuted between Herne Hill and Holborn Viaduct between 1981 and 1983, but can't recall the destination of the Central Division trains - West Croydon via Norbury, perhaps? There were also peak hour services to/from Orpington, but the only off peak SE division trains from Holborn Viaduct went via the Catford Loop and Swanley to Sevenoaks.

 

[BRX]

Something I am trying to figure out, is why off-peak services were withdrawn from Loughborough Junction between (I think) 1992 and 1996.

The 1994 timetable has no loop services as such running via Elephant/Herne Hill. There are various other services using the route, but none stop at Loughborough Junction, except in the morning and evening peaks.

In 1995, the Thameslink loop service is running, but it's still the case that no services are stopping at Loughborough Junction outside of the peaks.

In 1996 the loop service is running and it is stopping at Loughborough Junction - giving it the 4tph frequency (to/from London) it still enjoys.

Was the withdrawal of off-peak services from Loughborough Junction something to do with timetabling (for example, fitting in additional services somehow as a result of Thameslink)? Or was it an attempt to downgrade (and perhaps eventually close) the station for other reasons? It seems to have coincided with the removal of some of the platform buildings.

 

[Taunton]

Thanks! That gets me back to 1994 at least.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2025 ==


This is pre 1988, is that right?
Looking at the 1995 timetable I can see that the loop service is operating via Blackfriars & Herne Hill, as it does today.
In the 1994 timetable I don't see a loop service operating out of either Blackfriars or London Bridge.
So pre 1988-ish there was a loop service from LB, and post 1995-ish from Blackfriars/Herne Hill, and in between those dates, neither - is that right?

Yes, it's before through Thameslink services opened. It had been like that for some years prior, but in 1960 for example they went from Holborn Viaduct (again) round through Wimbledon and Sutton, and terminated at West Croydon. The local service back through Mitcham Junction started back somewhat randomly at Horsham/Dorking/Epsom, and ran alternately to Victoria and to London Bridge via Streatham.

 

[BRX]

At different times the loop service ran from Holborn Viaduct or London Bridge, and returned either via Mitcham Junction or West Croydon to one or other of the London termini.

İ commuted between Herne Hill and Holborn Viaduct between 1981 and 1983, but can't recall the destination of the Central Division trains - West Croydon via Norbury, perhaps? There were also peak hour services to/from Orpington, but the only off peak SE division trains from Holborn Viaduct went via the Catford Loop and Swanley to Sevenoaks.

Yes, it's before through Thameslink services opened. It had been like that for some years prior, but in 1960 for example they went from Holborn Viaduct (again) round through Wimbledon and Sutton, and terminated at West Croydon. The local service back through Mitcham Junction started back somewhat randomly at Horsham/Dorking/Epsom, and ran alternately to Victoria and to London Bridge via Streatham.

Thanks.

I'd always assumed the "loop" service was a Thameslink innovation but clearly not. In terms of Wimbledon loop services that ran via tulse hill, I guess it all started with the one visible here that rejoins itself at "Tooting Junction":




And since then, loop services have existed on at least these three routes (or has the purple one never actually run as a continuous service?):

 

[Taunton]

You may find of interest an article (from 1966) in the Railway Magazine about the Loop Line and its services (also sometimes known as the "Wall of Death" Line after the high curved concrete cutting sidewall at the Sutton end), by noted authority Alan A Jackson.

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/WimbledonSuttonRly.pdf

The whole lot of Railway Magazine old articles on the Southern are available from the same source; this is the index, which I regret (for member's wives) may give many a squandered hour working through the items! They pretty much cover everything through to the various London termini we have mentioned.

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

 

[Rescars]

Wonderful LSWR map, @BRX! A good reminder that the LSWR used to run to Ludgate Hill, no doubt much to the inconvenience of the LC&D. I wonder why this entire route is shown in half thickness. Was the entire route jointly owned or reliant on running powers? I see that the LSWR couldn't quite manage to acknowledge the junction with the LBSC at Merton Park!

 

[etr221]

Wimbledon-Streatham Jn was LSWR & LBSC Joint (both routes to Tooting), LSWR had running powers thence, and also from Lavender Hill Jn (Clapham Jn), to Ludgate Hill (over LBSC and LCDR/SECR - it had put money into the LCDR City extension).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==

I think the underlying issue over the whole Tulse Hill-Streatham-Wimbledon-Sutton line is that, ever since construction, the railway has had an underlying sense of 'ok, we've built it, now what services do we run over it?'.

My own thought (pipe dream!) is that, when the Wimbledon & Sutton line was built in the 1920s (including rebuild of Wimbledon Station), the Southern should have put in diving junctions to the Sutton and Streatham/Tulse Hill lines to integrate them into the South Western suburban network...

 

[BRX]

I wonder why this entire route is shown in half thickness. Was the entire route jointly owned or reliant on running powers?

I think it was reliant on running powers - but so was the line between Battersea & Loughborough Jn so it's a bit inconsistent that that line is shown full thickness.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==

You may find of interest an article (from 1966) in the Railway Magazine about the Loop Line and its services (also sometimes known as the "Wall of Death" Line after the high curved concrete cutting sidewall at the Sutton end), by noted authority Alan A Jackson.

https://sremg.org.uk/RlyMag/WimbledonSuttonRly.pdf

The whole lot of Railway Magazine old articles on the Southern are available from the same source; this is the index, which I regret (for member's wives) may give many a squandered hour working through the items! They pretty much cover everything through to the various London termini we have mentioned.

SREmG

Enthusiasts, Historians, and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the internet.

sremg.org.uk

Thankyou. I'm an SREMG member but had not thought to look in these articles.

 

[Taunton]

I think the underlying issue over the whole Tulse Hill-Streatham-Wimbledon-Sutton line is that, ever since construction, the railway has had an underlying sense of 'ok, we've built it, now what services do we run over it?'.

The real issue is that none of the available routes onward from Wimbledon to a central terminus are efficient in terms of distance, time, or freedom from conflicts. It's far quicker to change at Wimbledon onto the Waterloo service. Coupled with the Northern Line at Morden, plus its associated bus feeders, scooping a good amount of the traffic, the line is something of an orphan. As can still be seen by train loadings.

 

[30907]

And since then, loop services have existed on at least these three routes (or has the purple one never actually run as a continuous service?):

View attachment 182925

AFAIK there was never a pure loop service from Holborn/Blackfriars pre Thameslink: trains to Herne Hill offpeak were only half hourly and ran via Wimbledon to Sutton and West Croydon (more convenient for passengers if operationally awkward). From West Croydon they continued to Victoria or London Bridge via whatever route fitted operationally (I remember them as Vic via Palace but it changed over the years). It's theoretically possible they may have done a partial loop ending up at London Br via Tulse Hill, but I don't recall it.
(Taunton's Post #10 refers to the pre-Thameslink loop from London Br).

 

[Taunton]

When I looked up that 1960 timetable the trains via Sutton terminated at West Croydon, which is not a convenient place to terminate. Another service started at the same frequency from there a while later to Victoria via Norbury, so is conceivable that trains were run through.

The Central Division suburban area north of Croydon was commonly run as a whole series of loops, some back to the original starting point, some interchanging between Victoria, Blackfriars and London Bridge, and these did vary over the years for which ones were used.

 

[Rescars]

When I looked up that 1960 timetable the trains via Sutton terminated at West Croydon, which is not a convenient place to terminate.

Probablbly not relevant, but West Croydon would also have been where your train terminated if you left Wimbledon and travelled via Merton Park and along the approximate route of the Surrey Iron Railway through Beddington Lane.

 

[norbitonflyer]

At one time c1980 there was no Sunday service to Blackfriars, (and I think also none on the line through North Dulwich) so Wimbledon Loop trains ran to Victoria. It was of course much quicker to go via Earlsfield!

 

[nw1]

The service seemed to vary over the years.

I remember the 1985 service involved the loop service being routed Victoria - Norbury - West Croydon - Sutton - Wimbledon and then Streatham, Tulse Hill and Holborn Viaduct. It was a slightly unusual timetable as the stopping service via Norbury and West Croydon was on a 20-min headway and 2tph continued round the loop, while the other 1tph headed to Epsom Downs - whereas out of Holborn it was an even-interval 30-min service, on the hour and half-hour if I remember right. So presumably one tph had a long layover somewhere (Sutton?)

The pattern changed in 1986, though I can't remember exactly what to. The Central service from Holborn now went to Sanderstead, via East Croydon (can't remember which route from Tulse Hill to East Croydon) but can't remember what happened to the loop service. What I do remember is four groups of suburban services at East Croydon: Charing Cross-Caterham; Victoria (Norbury I think) - Smitham or Tattenham Corner; Holborn-Sanderstead; and just 1tph London Bridge-Tulse Hill-Crystal Palace-East Croydon which then seemed to go empty to Redhill and back, presumably because there was nowhere to stable it in the Croydon area.

1982 meanwhile (see Timetable World) had the blue route above, out from London Bridge via Mitcham Junction, back round the loop.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

At one time c1980 there was no Sunday service to Blackfriars, (and I think also none on the line through North Dulwich) so Wimbledon Loop trains ran to Victoria. It was of course much quicker to go via Earlsfield!

How did the poor people of Peckham get to Central London on a Sunday then?? Wasn’t the South London line peak hour too at the time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2025 ==

Wimbledon-Streatham Jn was LSWR & LBSC Joint (both routes to Tooting), LSWR had running powers thence, and also from Lavender Hill Jn (Clapham Jn), to Ludgate Hill (over LBSC and LCDR/SECR - it had put money into the LCDR City extension).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==

I think the underlying issue over the whole Tulse Hill-Streatham-Wimbledon-Sutton line is that, ever since construction, the railway has had an underlying sense of 'ok, we've built it, now what services do we run over it?'.

My own thought (pipe dream!) is that, when the Wimbledon & Sutton line was built in the 1920s (including rebuild of Wimbledon Station), the Southern should have put in diving junctions to the Sutton and Streatham/Tulse Hill lines to integrate them into the South Western suburban network...

I wish they (not sure who exactly) built the Balham and North Surrey Railway through Clapham Park to join the Chatham between Clapham and Brixton. At least that would have given a more direct route into central London for the loop trains

 

[BRX]

Wasn’t the South London line peak hour too at the time?

I'm interested in whether "peak times only" services were common for inner south London stations at any time - is it something that started happening in the 1970s/1980s? And did it signal a longer term intention to close some stations altogether?

 

[norbitonflyer]

How did the poor people of Peckham get to Central London on a Sunday then?? Wasn’t the South London line peak hour too at the time?

Catford Loop service to Victoria

 

[nw1]

I'm interested in whether "peak times only" services were common for inner south London stations at any time - is it something that started happening in the 1970s/1980s? And did it signal a longer term intention to close some stations altogether?

I don't know but Coulsdon North is one case. Not sure if you'd call it "inner" but it was certainly part of the EPB-operated inner-suburban network.
In 1981/82 it was peak only, then it closed altogether in 1983.

I seem to remember seeing an early 70s timetable which showed an all-day service, can't be certain though.

 

[Magdalia]

At one time c1980 there was no Sunday service to Blackfriars, (and I think also none on the line through North Dulwich) so Wimbledon Loop trains ran to Victoria. It was of course much quicker to go via Earlsfield!

Regarding weekend services, it is important to remember that, when Thameslink first started, the City of London was dead at weekends. Cannon Street was also closed at weekends. When I lived in South London in the early 1980s, the best way to get to/from Liverpool Street on a Saturday or Sunday was by bus.

 

[30907]

When I looked up that 1960 timetable the trains via Sutton terminated at West Croydon, which is not a convenient place to terminate. Another service started at the same frequency from there a while later to Victoria via Norbury, so is conceivable that trains were run through.

The 1958 and 1963 timetables show the service running from Victoria via Crystal Palace with no layover at W.C. In the reverse direction there was typically 12min between arrival from Wimbledon and departure via C.P. - I presume the units shunted to the up Bay to allow a London Br train through.

The Central Division suburban area north of Croydon was commonly run as a whole series of loops, some back to the original starting point, some interchanging between Victoria, Blackfriars and London Bridge, and these did vary over the years for which ones were used.

Quite so!

A little detail that I don't think has been mentioned: the Tulse Hill-Mitcham Jn-Sutton route was the traditional direct route from London Br to Dorking and beyond; IIRC it was one of the first routes to be cut to peak hours only, possibly as early as 1967, leaving Streatham-Mitcham Jn with no direct service.

 

[Rescars]

Following on from @30907, though not directly on the loop, IIRC there used to be Thameslink and other services via Sutton which terminated at Effingham Junction.

 

[BRX]

one of the first routes to be cut to peak hours only, possibly as early as 1967,

This being in response to a general decline in traffic post war, as car use etc increased?
I know that this was the pattern across most of the UK but don't feel I have a clear picture of how much it applied in areas such as south London.

I do know that at least in the more "inner" parts of south London, the change in travel habits was accompanied by an element of depopulation but I assume that applied less in more suburban places like Sutton.

 

[30907]

This being in response to a general decline in traffic post war, as car use etc increased?
I know that this was the pattern across most of the UK but don't feel I have a clear picture of how much it applied in areas such as south London.

Suburban offpeak services were certainly thinned out on the SR in 1958, but commuter traffic was still growing.

I do know that at least in the more "inner" parts of south London, the change in travel habits was accompanied by an element of depopulation but I assume that applied less in more suburban places like Sutton.

There was definitely a move outwards: the occupants of 20s/30s suburbs were still there in the 60s/70s, having no need to move for work and mostly no great desire to retire to the coast, so the next generation of newlyweds would be buying their first home on a new estate in Longfield or Hassocks, Redhill or Fleet.