'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[ralphchadkirk]

Just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't make them an idiot Nym...


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Flamingo]

Regarding Mr main's actions, he was abusive, and in breach of railway bylaws and NRCoC.

D. YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
21. Buying tickets
As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are
consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the
correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold
you the ticket.
22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand
over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of
personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated
as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will
apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable
to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Now, he was the author of his own misfortune, and everything that happened was as a result of his own actions.

The attempts of Mr Mann senior to justify and excuse his son's actions probably give some idea where he learned his behaviour from.

 

[Oswyntail]

An Accuracy International in the right hands is much better than a bow and arrow, or something like a L96a1, insanely accurate weapon, in the right hands... ...

Depends on the distance involved. Accuracy and penetration of a modern compound, let alone more traditional types, always startles. Writing as an archer with some Welsh connections, I am pulled in two directions by this turn of events

 

[Nym]

Or of course I could just break out an 81mm motor and a C2 sight...

 

[ainsworth74]

Or of course I could just break out an 81mm motor and a C2 sight.

I raise you a radio, map and an artillery battery

As for the subject of the thread, kudos to the 'big man' I certainly don't have too much of an issue with what he did.

It seems that Mr Main did not have a valid ticket for his journey (and as flamingo pointed out it is his responsibility to ensure that he actually had been given the correct ticket), he was clearly being abusive to the guard and it seems he was refusing to buy another ticket when requested to do so. Seems like you could take you pick of various byelaw and NRCoC violations.

 

[the sniper]

Just jumping back to the pre-furo1 silliness times of the thread... In response to what ajax103 quoted to me.

6. Unacceptable behaviour

(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.

(2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

23. Name and address

(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.

(2) The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

24. Enforcement

(2) Removal of persons

(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.

(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

Erm... Thanks. I'm very well aware of those already though. I'd asked about the 'interfering with the duties of a railway official' byelaw Ferret mentioned but I subsequently haven't found. If you were making suggestions as to what byelaws could be used in place of the non-existent 'obstruction' byelaw, I've already done that. Though I'm not sure you're doing that as you've copied the ticket byelaws too.

Anyway, unless you're aware of the circumstances he was in it's fairy pointless to guess byelaws that could be used. He could have been 'obstructed' by someone singing into a loudspeaker! But don't worry, I won't copy and paste the relevant byelaw.

As you reposted the Enforcement section too though, I'm half thinking that you may have misread our posts and thought we were talking about Sam Main?

 

[Nym]

I raise you a radio, map and an artillery battery

*Scampers off to AAC Dishforth and Marine Barracks*

I see your radio, see your map, see your artillary battery (The Yorkshire Gunners) and raise you two westland Apache AH-64s and four westland Lynx...

And yeah, nothing detracts from the ned being in the wrong...

 

[WelshBluebird]

but it was only when he got on the train that evening he realised he had two Polmont-to-Edinburgh Park tickets.

1 - His claim last week was that he realised in the morning, not the evening.
2 - If that was the case, then he should have approached the guard as soon as he realised, explained the situation, and been as co-operative as possible.
3 - He was being abusive to railway staff. That alone is a valid reason for someone to be chucked off a train.

So still, I have no sympathy. Especially after the bit in the article saying he tried to trip the guard up

 

[Minilad]

Okay folks, time for me to bow out now. It's been nice talking to you. I have a fundamentally different perspective to most of you and there is no point treading the same ground. I wish you all the best, railway workers and PTSD suffers alike.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Not sure if I am being thick here but what is PTSD

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Not sure if I am being thick here but what is PTSD

Post traumatic stress disorder. Any kind of serious stress or shock can cause it.

 

[Minilad]

Post traumatic stress disorder. Any kind of serious stress or shock can cause it.

Ah cheers. My train from Tyseley to New St was cancelled earlier and I had to suffer a mad taxi driver back to New Street. Can I claim

 

[Nym]

Not sure if I am being thick here but what is PTSD

What ralph said, and I think it was aimed at me after my Afganistan valley rant...

 

[ainsworth74]

*Scampers off to AAC Dishforth and Marine Barracks*

I see your radio, see your map, see your artillary battery (The Yorkshire Gunners) and raise you two westland Apache AH-64s and four westland Lynx...

And yeah, nothing detracts from the ned being in the wrong...

As much as I would like to respond (and I have a few ideas ) I fear we've wandered off topic (slightly) so my apologies and I shall post no more on this thread unless it's on topic

 

[hantsman1205]

*Scampers off to AAC Dishforth and Marine Barracks*

I see your radio, see your map, see your artillary battery (The Yorkshire Gunners) and raise you two westland Apache AH-64s and four westland Lynx...

And yeah, nothing detracts from the ned being in the wrong...

Them ACC blokes are as hard as their pies

 

[Nym]

ACC? I was seeing the AAC...

 

[hantsman1205]

ACC? I was seeing the AAC...

I know,

I raise you 1 SF Platoon (GPMG)

 

[Nym]

You want me to raise you 21, 22 and 23regt.?

Maybe throw in a couple of HMS...

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you for real, or a relative perhaps? He still did loads of things in breach of byelaws. He is not an innocent victim, and his behaviour caused the chain of events to happen as they did.

He was bragging about the incident on Facebook, so clearly knew he was in the wrong.. and it's only afterwards that someone (like his dad) thought it was worth trying to blame everyone else, and no doubt grab a bit of compo.

If he had been mis-sold a ticket, he could have clearly handled things differently to stop what happened from happening. He was drunk and acted like an absolute idiot as a result.

The best thing for him to do is be an adult, hold his hands up, and then seek to sort out the issue with the incorrect ticket being sold in a professional manner afterwards. Nobody could know at the time if his story was true, as he didn't make a good enough attempt to explain and just got abusive. It's ironic if he had been telling the truth, but how is that the fault of anyone else? He kept saying his ticket was valid when it wasn't - even if that was the fault of someone else!!

I have yet to see any proof or medical evidence that he was drunk yet people continue to ascertain he was drunk. I am led to believe he was a diabetic that had a drink.

Whilst his actions/language would appear unacceptable.

Now there are a lot of railway bods here so they will probably be in the know here but what if a passenger claims a ticketing irregularity... do you eject each and every one of them (with violence) or do you do a TIR or an UPFN or does that not happen in Scotland ?

Surely if the guard had followed procedures for the ticketing irregularity this would not have happened and it could have been sorted out amicably after an investigation.

I personally can't speak for the big man's employer but if they are not happy at his actions and the ensuing publicity then there is not a lot we can do. That will be a matter for him and his employers to sort out

From my lay point of view, even if you exclude Sam Main's inappropriate language and the ticketing irregularity the big man ejecting him is tantamount to assault. Obviously that will be down to BTP to decide with the Scottish Equivilent of the CPS but if potential clients of the big man also deem his actions to be unreasonable or assault as some people are on the fence or keep changing sides when more information comes to light then they are obviously not going to be too impressed.

As I said earlier the BTP will decide what crimes if any have taken place. Relevant employers can determine what action they can take if any in line with their T&C of employment and anybody wronged can pursue civilly for compensation where appropriate.

Having seen another member of a social networking website prosecuted for their posts (can't remember if it was for libel or defamation of charachter),I am surprised that the moderators have allowed some items to be posted here as I was led to believe that whilst people are responsible for their individual posts the website has a duty of care as well.

 

[68000]

I am sure if the man has showed the guard the 2 single tickets in a rational manner then the guard will have let him travel. Main should have even went to the ticket office before boarding the train and explain the situation. I would even suggest he should went there before he decided it was more important to go for some drinks.

If Main was getting nowhere, he should have bought another single and wrote in to ScotRail looking for a refund by showing he had already purchased tickets but was wrongly ticketed.

Maybe he should also check his tickets on receipt

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Now there are a lot of railway bods here so they will probably be in the know here but what if a passenger claims a ticketing irregularity... do you eject each and every one of them (with violence) or do you do a TIR or an UPFN or does that not happen in Scotland ?

Surely if the guard had followed procedures for the ticketing irregularity this would not have happened and it could have been sorted out amicably after an investigation....

We don't know that there was a travel irregularity though, I'm sure if there was, it wouldn't have gotten this far. Only the 'young man' has offered this as an explanation (officially) and his story has not only changed a few times, but also doesn't really seem very water tight.

Take, for example, his claim that the video showed pretty much all of the exchange and that he had no time to explain to the guard that there was a mistake made on the ticket. At no time in the video does he even try to explain anything or show another ticket and I would argue that someone who is not drunk would have a fair chance of trying to say something in a minute, even if they were interrupted. He does have plenty of time to hurl expletives, so I'd say that adds weight to the theory that it is not as he claims.

It is also unlikely that, in a station, the guard picked someone out from the train full of people to throw off for no apparent reason, that the guard had pre-warned the driver, that the passenger happened to have a ticket for travel in the wrong direction and that someone happened to have a phone in their hand ready to film at the same time in the same carriage of the same train.

Then we have to look into the fact that seems to have made no attempt to complain to Scotrail about his mis-treatment or about his taxi fare, infact he claims that he'd rather have gone to the police after all of his exams have finished (in which time more people could have been assaulted or wrongly ejected from trains in the middle of nowhere). And that is before we even consider his facebook page.

Until Scotrail, the police, the guard or Mr Pollock come forward saying there was a mistake made at the time of sale, I don't think we can say it happened.

I think if Mr Main's story was consistant and, more importantly, believeable, then we'd all be looking at it differently.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am sure if the man has showed the guard the 2 single tickets in a rational manner then the guard will have let him travel. Main should have even went to the ticket office before boarding the train and explain the situation. I would even suggest he should went there before he decided it was more important to go for some drinks.

If Main was getting nowhere, he should have bought another single and wrote in to ScotRail looking for a refund by showing he had already purchased tickets but was wrongly ticketed.

Maybe he should also check his tickets on receipt

How can you be sure ? We don't know what happened before hand. You can already see the guard has a I really don't care attitude which can't be in line with company policy as he claims he would wait there all night. His TOC or control surely would not allow this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We don't know that there was a travel irregularity though, I'm sure if there was, it wouldn't have gotten this far. Only the 'young man' has offered this as an explanation (officially) and his story has not only changed a few times, but also doesn't really seem very water tight.

Take, for example, his claim that the video showed pretty much all of the exchange and that he had no time to explain to the guard that there was a mistake made on the ticket. At no time in the video does he even try to explain anything or show another ticket and I would argue that someone who is not drunk would have a fair chance of trying to say something in a minute, even if they were interrupted. He does have plenty of time to hurl expletives, so I'd say that adds weight to the theory that it is not as he claims.

It is also unlikely that, in a station, the guard picked someone out from the train full of people to throw off for no apparent reason, that the guard had pre-warned the driver, that the passenger happened to have a ticket for travel in the wrong direction and that someone happened to have a phone in their hand ready to film at the same time in the same carriage of the same train.

Then we have to look into the fact that seems to have made no attempt to complain to Scotrail about his mis-treatment or about his taxi fare, infact he claims that he'd rather have gone to the police after all of his exams have finished (in which time more people could have been assaulted or wrongly ejected from trains in the middle of nowhere). And that is before we even consider his facebook page.

Until Scotrail, the police, the guard or Mr Pollock come forward saying there was a mistake made at the time of sale, I don't think we can say it happened.

I think if Mr Main's story was consistant and, more importantly, believeable, then we'd all be looking at it differently.

I am led to believe and again this is only from an online news articles that it has been discovered that Sam Main WAS sold the wrong tickets.

We don't know what happened before as we have not seen the footage but I believe it has been claimed that this was the guard returning to Sam.

Why should Sam buy another ticket if he already the correct tickets ?

Yes maybe he should have checked earlier but the fact was that he did not.

It does not excuse Sam's behaviour (people still claim he was drunk but again I have yet to see medical proof of this and nobody despite saying this on and on again have been able to proove that he was drunk).

So according to this forum everybody without what appears to be a valid ticket should be removed from the train forcibly or made to buy another ticket and sort it out later.

I am led to believe that a complaint was made to Scotrail about the ticketing irregularity and an investigation has also been made.

Surelely if someone has allegedly been assaulted then it is best to report this first so that medical evidence can be obtained quickly to preserve this.

 

[marks87]

Regarding Mr main's actions, he was abusive, and in breach of railway bylaws and NRCoC.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Now, he was the author of his own misfortune, and everything that happened was as a result of his own actions.

The attempts of Mr Mann senior to justify and excuse his son's actions probably give some idea where he learned his behaviour from.

So are we now saying that "failure to check your tickets" is punishable by a random stranger literally throwing you off the train?

At what point does that not become a suitable punishment, since we've already worked down from "not having a valid ticket".

 

[ANorthernGuard]

How can you be sure ? We don't know what happened before hand. You can already see the guard has a I really don't care attitude which can't be in line with company policy as he claims he would wait there all night. His TOC or control surely would not allow this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I am led to believe and again this is only from an online news articles that it has been discovered that Sam Main WAS sold the wrong tickets.

We don't know what happened before as we have not seen the footage but I believe it has been claimed that this was the guard returning to Sam.

Why should Sam buy another ticket if he already the correct tickets ?

Yes maybe he should have checked earlier but the fact was that he did not.

It does not excuse Sam's behaviour (people still claim he was drunk but again I have yet to see medical proof of this and nobody despite saying this on and on again have been able to proove that he was drunk).

So according to this forum everybody without what appears to be a valid ticket should be removed from the train forcibly or made to buy another ticket and sort it out later.

I am led to believe that a complaint was made to Scotrail about the ticketing irregularity and an investigation has also been made.

Surelely if someone has allegedly been assaulted then it is best to report this first so that medical evidence can be obtained quickly to preserve this.

I look at every situation on its merits, the way this person spoke to the guard, if he spoke to me he would be off and the train would not move until he was and TOC's will 9/10 back up the guard, he didn't have a valid ticket, he was rude and very abusive he had no respect for anyone now until it is proven that Diabetes was the cause (which I for one second do not believe whatsoever) The Guard did what the majority of us would do (before the big guy intervened) the trick is making the person causing the nuisance realise that he is in a lose lose situation (i.e. that the train will not move until he leaves and if he continues to refuse to leave the police will make him), The Big Guy like so many passengers are sick of people acting in the manner of Mr Main having total disregard for anyone apart from themselves and lost patience, was the Big Guy right to eject the Non-Paying Passenger (NO Valid Ticket so no pay) the law will decide, it will all come out in the wash and my Money is on Mr Main facing Charges!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I am led to believe and again this is only from an online news articles that it has been discovered that Sam Main WAS sold the wrong tickets....

And I am led to believe, by media reports and an interview he did with the BBC, that, according to himself, he either asked for a ticket each way or was told to do so by the clerk that morning, that either he did not notice one was wrong, or he noticed one was wrong on the morning train and decided to leave it for the train home, or noticed the error on the evening train. We are also expected to believe, from his accounts, that there was no prior exchange before the recording, that very little was not recorded and that he is not sure what was in the bag that he collected off of the train after it was thrown onto the platform.

Now, if his story was consistant and believeable, I think we'd all be saying that Mr Pollock and the guard were in the wrong for sure, but I for one just can't do that.

....We don't know what happened before as we have not seen the footage but I believe it has been claimed that this was the guard returning to Sam....

That would be logical, but it is not what Sam has claimed.

....Why should Sam buy another ticket if he already the correct tickets ?

Yes maybe he should have checked earlier but the fact was that he did not....

So, did he have a valid ticket or not? Either he did, in which case he should have shown it and none of this would have happened, or he did not, in which case he should have to buy one.

....So according to this forum everybody without what appears to be a valid ticket should be removed from the train forcibly or made to buy another ticket and sort it out later....

Erm.....well, if you don't have a valid ticket and have no good reason for that being the case the options are, leave the train, be removed (by the police normally) or pay for one (or an excess or Penalty Fare if appropriate).

....I am led to believe that a complaint was made to Scotrail about the ticketing irregularity and an investigation has also been made....

A complaint was made to the police afaIk, and, as a result, Scotrail are also investigating, but I might have misunderstood that bit. I don't know who made the complaint, but as Sam was contacted by the police (by his own admission), we can safely assume it was not him that reported the incident.

....Surelely if someone has allegedly been assaulted then it is best to report this first so that medical evidence can be obtained quickly to preserve this.

You would think so, but apparently exams are more important than making sure an assault is reported and a £20 taxi fare reclaimed (students are obviously better off than the rest of us!)

 

[WelshBluebird]

Whilst his actions/language would appear unacceptable.

No. His actions and language WAS unacceptable. No "appear" about it.

do you eject each and every one of them (with violence) or do you do a TIR or an UPFN or does that not happen in Scotland ?

If the person is being abusive, do you really think they will accept that (or indeed give the correct details)

Surely if the guard had followed procedures for the ticketing irregularity this would not have happened and it could have been sorted out amicably after an investigation.

But it wasn't just a ticketing issue. The person was also being disruptive and abusive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why should Sam buy another ticket if he already the correct tickets ?

Because he didn't have the correct tickets.

Yes maybe he should have checked earlier but the fact was that he did not.

Then that is his mistake, and so he himself caused the whole issue. If he had checked earlier, and tried to sort out the problem, or even just calmly explained to the guard, then he would not have been chucked off like he was.

It does not excuse Sam's behaviour

But you are doing just that. His behaviour alone was a valid reason to chuck him off the train.

So according to this forum everybody without what appears to be a valid ticket should be removed from the train forcibly or made to buy another ticket and sort it out later.

No. That is only the case if the person is being abusive, disruptive and will not co-operate with staff.

I am led to believe that a complaint was made to Scotrail about the ticketing irregularity and an investigation has also been made.

yet before that, and before he went to the media, he was laughing and gloating about the whole thing on facebook.

 

[jon0844]

To give some possible credit to Mr Main, I wonder if he did/does in fact not want to take any action - but due to his comments on Facebook, he is now under pressure from his peers (and family) to do something.

For all we know, he woke up the next day, bragged about the thing on Facebook and was going to leave it at that - a face saving exercise to make light of the situation and move on.

But then his mates commented and said he should have the guard and the big man.. and his dad jumps on the bandwagon.. Of course, this then requires possibly twisting the truth a little here and there, and sadly without anyone checking everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet in the process - hence some incredible contradictions.

I've always said that Mr Main should just man up and accept he was out of order, and acted in an unprofessional manner - ultimately causing what happened to happen. 'fess up and move on, and earn some respect as a result. We can all act in a manner we later regret.

The best outcome would be for there to be no further action against anyone. Mr Main may have been mis-sold his tickets, but he is at fault for not explaining that in a calm and appropriate manner. A valuable lesson learnt.

 

[sonorguy]

You seem very loathe to acknowledge any wrongdoing on behalf of Mr Main
Therefore I conclude you are Mr Main and I claim my £5

Then I suggest you read my posts properly.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And as a PS to any forum members here not aware of my history, not for the benifit of furo, but for the benifit of others, I have worked in secure units, I have worked in EMI units, and I have also been a servant to the queen in the kind of uniform you can see on the left, and no, I was not making c*** up about sandy places.

And so have I to the point that I manage a large secure hospital that takes patients from the prison service (and I've also been on unpleasan sandy holidays courtesy of HMQ), and I don't feel the situation was handled correctly at all.

All three protagonists behaved in a way which exacerbated this situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am sure if the man has showed the guard the 2 single tickets in a rational manner then the guard will have let him travel.

It's possible that he did initially but neither you nor I know that as there's no evidence either way.

And that's one of the big problems with how the media has portrayed this, we don't actually know what went on before this except that it's clear that the video is from the end of a lengthy interaction or the end of a number of interactions. I doubt there's any audio evidence in existence and Mr. Pollock and the guard will have been told to say nothing about it. Mr. Main clearly has, but there's nothing to contradict or corroborate this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no evidence that he did show two tickets, but there is reason to think he only showed one.

In the video the 'young man' says he has shown the guard his ticket (singular), the guard says the ticket (singular) is for the wrong journey (Polmont to Edinburgh Park, not Edinburgh Park to Polmont). If the 'young man' had shown two tickets it seems likely the 'young man' would have told the guard he had shown both his tickets (plural) and the guard would have said that both tickets (plural) were the wrong way round.

It seems unlikely, although possible, that both would make this grammatical error, if two tickets were shown.

 

[jon0844]

If both tickets had been shown, and the guard had looked and seen that from the ticket numbers they were sequential, and issued at about the same time (give or take a minute or two) then I am sure he would have believed his explanation - had that explanation been given of course.

If he had a YPRC on him too, that would have presumably helped (did he? Was the ticket he showed with the discount? Did he present his railcard?)

It seems to me that he didn't do any of this at the time.

Of course, it's still possible that he could have bought the second ticket for someone else and made up the story about the mistake, then just travelled both ways with one ticket.

The guard would have been forced to make a judgement, but if Mr Main hadn't been abusive them I suspect he'd have given him the benefit of the doubt - but taken details to try and keep track of any future attempts to do the same.

 

[Nym]

And so have I to the point that I manage a large secure hospital that takes patients from the prison service (and I've also been on unpleasan sandy holidays courtesy of HMQ), and I don't feel the situation was handled correctly at all.

All three protagonists behaved in a way which exacerbated this situation.

Oh I don't think it was handled in the best way, I was pointing out the experience as a way of showing that a new troll we had didn't have any right to comment on how it should be handled based on his experience, rather than any comment on how it was actually handled.

Personally I don't know enough about the situation to comment as I wasn't there, but I proberbly wouldn't engage in a confrontation with any passenger / MoP without assistance from either the BTP or station staff. (As was demonstrated by a conductor between Clitheroe and Victoria who called ahead to station staff at Salford Crescent for assistant, and three vs one worked, he ejected himself from the train, but again, that was a complex sitution). In the same way I wouldn't sit in an OP on me own without a spotter...