'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[90019]

nvm

 

[bAzTNM]

Kind of related (well assault [kind of] on a train).

Pilled up dancing guy gets pushed off a Subway train by a guy. Watch the guy behind him.

 

[sonorguy]

What a bizarre post. He had no business boarding that train, and in my view it is quite reasonable for a member of the public to assist in ensuring someone does not board a train for which they have been removed from and are being denied entry from. He could simply have asked for his bag, but evidently his communication skills are lacking (but not untypical for a chav).

Indeed at Cardiff Central station on 25 July some pompous individual tried to board a train despite already being refused by the guard because there were already too many bikes on (including ours), and the train was going to be calling at unstaffed stations where there would likely be even more bikes trying to board and he'd have to get the next train. After an argument, the guy then waited until just before departure and the guard went away from that door, he then opened the door and tried to get his bike on regardless. He was quite shocked when I pushed his bike back and closed the door. The train doors then locked and we departed - on time. I was just in the right place at the right time and would like to think most people would have done the same.

There are some apologists for chavs and people who campaign for chav rights. That's their choice, they can do that if they want, but equally I can deplore them for it. Then there are people who stand up to chavs, and to me, they're the real heros! It's not always possible to stand up to chavs, and chavs are used to getting their own way the vast majority of the time as people are scared of them due to the foul language they use and knowing their 'rights' (but never their responsibilities). They get a shock when people stand up to them as it's so rare.

An equally bizarre post - None of what you say allows someone who isn't involved in the discussion/dispute originally, is not employed by the railway, has no authority implied or otherwise from anyone with the power to grant him that authority, clearly doesn't know what he's doing in terms of restraint and removal and really just wants to show he's a big hard man to get involved and physically throw someone to the the floor using a dangerous hold in order to do so.

Your example is completely different and to me a perfectly appropriate way of dealing with a situation. You didn't do anything that could be considered assault and neither did you lay hands on anyone.

No-one comes out of this covered in glory, Mr. Main comes across as a gobby brat who either made an error when intoxixcated and dealt with it the wrong way or attempted to evade his fare, the conductor as someone who doesn't follow policy and doesn't know how to handle situations like this and the chap who removed Mr. Main just comes across as a bit of a thug who could possibly face an assault charge for his intervention (though I wouldn't have thought the Procurator Fiscal would think that proceeding is in the public interest).

This could have been handled so differently without any of the negative publicity for all involved.

 

[Minilad]

This could have been handled so differently without any of the negative publicity for all involved.

Yes it's true. This situation could have been handled very differently. If only we lived in a perfect happy clappy world. But we don't. We live in a world where idiots like Main are getting away with this sort of behaviour day in day out. On trains, buses, in shopping centres, cinemas. In fact everywhere. And they are getting away with it because 99.999% of the time they are allowed to.
They are allowed to because we have a justice system that couldn't be more back to front if it was spelt metsys ecitsuj. They are allowed to because too many do gooders are giving them excuses. They are allowed to because they are not backed up by strong parenting. They are allowed to because schools are no longer allowed to instill a sense of respect.
There was one person and one person only at fault in that clip. Mr Main. Because all he had to do was show a valid ticket or buy a ticket when asked. He didn't. Instead he tried to intimidate an older man just doing his job because he probably thought he would get away with it.
If every time a scrote like Main behaved like this someone stood up to them then maybe, just maybe they would learn they are not going to get away with it and would stop making peoples lives a misery.

 

[Blindtraveler]

post of the month XC Driver!

 

[jon0844]

Absolutely spot on.

 

[sonorguy]

There was one person and one person only at fault in that clip. Mr Main. Because all he had to do was show a valid ticket or buy a ticket when asked. He didn't. Instead he tried to intimidate an older man just doing his job because he probably thought he would get away with it.

I don't see Mr. Main intimidating anyone. Sweary, gobby, annoying, possibly intoxicated? Absolutely. Intimidating? He's sat down the whole time until he was forcibly removed and at no point does he physically threaten anyone.

All three are at fault here.

 

[Minilad]

I don't see Mr. Main intimidating anyone. He's sat down the whole time until he was forcibly removed and at no point does he physically threaten anyone.

All three are at fault here.

You don't have to stand up or physically threaten to intimidate.
One person at fault. Mr Main. Because if he doesn't act the way he does the rest wouldn't have happened

 

[jon0844]

I really don't think anyone would have come to the aid of the conductor to throw someone off if they hadn't abusive too.

It was more likely due to the fact that other passengers wanted him off themselves, and when the conductor asked him to leave - that was the 'green light'.

Nobody can tell how other passengers will react to any situation. That will vary on a number of things, like whether people need to get to work, is it very late and they're tired and want to get back, are they in a group - which can encourage more bravado etc.

I've been on trains where people keep their heads down, and others where they've stood up to someone that was fighting. It's certainly a risk to be first, especially if you stand alone. That is unless you have the confidence to stand alone!

 

[sonorguy]

I really don't think anyone would have come to the aid of the conductor to throw someone off if they hadn't abusive too.

It was more likely due to the fact that other passengers wanted him off themselves, and when the conductor asked him to leave - that was the 'green light'.

Nobody can tell how other passengers will react to any situation. That will vary on a number of things, like whether people need to get to work, is it very late and they're tired and want to get back, are they in a group - which can encourage more bravado etc.

I've been on trains where people keep their heads down, and others where they've stood up to someone that was fighting. It's certainly a risk to be first, especially if you stand alone. That is unless you have the confidence to stand alone!

I'd agree with much of what you write here. There really isn't any sign of Mr. Main being intimidating and the conductor is certainly not acting as though he's intimidated. He's acting in a manner that suggests a) he's angry and b) that he's run out of ideas as to how to handle this.

However I doubt you'd be able to successfully argue in a court that a conductor asking a passenger to leave gives anyone else the right or authority to forcibly remove someone, especially as there's no imminent threat of physical violence..

 

[jon0844]

I agree that a court may see things differently but I hope it won't get to that.

The idiot isn't going to get loads of compo, but will be seen as a fool by the world - and someone who couldn't man up and take it on the chin, then put it behind him.

Having the dad step in, and possibly a cousin (if it was a cousin and not him) just makes him look like a tool - and no amount of money will restore his reputation now!

 

[sonorguy]

No arguments about any of that!

 

[Ferret]

I don't see Mr. Main intimidating anyone. Sweary, gobby, annoying, possibly intoxicated? Absolutely. Intimidating? He's sat down the whole time until he was forcibly removed and at no point does he physically threaten anyone.

All three are at fault here.

Drivel. Hogwash. Piffle. Nonsense.

I've tried to stay out of this thread, but enough is enough. Why is it that whenever somebody stands up for the greater good, there's always somebody somewhere acting the do-gooder condemning them? I'm fed up to the back teeth of reading what smacks of general leftie-ness where every criminal ****bag seems to be far more worthy of sticking up for than the person who lives his life the right way. Simple fact - Mr Main shows a ticket, no need for the Guard or 'bigman' to get involved. Who initiates the argument? Main. Who escalates it? Main. Who gets a whole lot more than he bargained for? Main. And do you know what? Good.

Queue a whole load of left-wing sh*** about how hard done by Mr Main is no doubt...................

 

[Chew Chew]

There really isn't any sign of Mr. Main being intimidating

I think the woman sitting with the kids would disagree with you.

I think she'd probably say she found someone who is drunk and swearing pretty intimidating.

 

[bnm]

Drivel. Hogwash. Piffle. Nonsense.

No. An alternative point of view. That's allowed isn't it? Without descending into ranting language as you go on to do.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't see Mr. Main intimidating anyone. Sweary, gobby, annoying, possibly intoxicated? Absolutely.

I strongly disagree. Anyone of those things could be threatening, especially to the family sat near by. How do you know these people didn't feel threatened or intimidated?

RESPECT should be compulsory on public transport, and Mr Main showed a general lack of it.

 

[jon0844]

I grew up in and around London, and think that I am pretty street wise, but even I can be intimidated by relatively small things at times.

There are many times when you just know that something could trigger in an instance. Body language may show this, as can language - not just the words, but how they're said. Tone of voice etc etc.

Some of it isn't easy to explain - at least by me - but nobody can say that had Mr Main not been removed it wouldn't have kicked off. We don't know that on another day, someone being thrown off may not have fought back harder, or had a weapon, or attacked another passenger that said something to him... but do we want to always wait and see, or cross our fingers?

It is certainly all about respect!

 

[sonorguy]

I strongly disagree. Anyone of those things could be threatening, especially to the family sat near by. How do you know these people didn't feel threatened or intimidated?

RESPECT should be compulsory on public transport, and Mr Main showed a general lack of it.

That would at least partly depend on his behaviour prior to the arrival of the conductor, but none of us know what that was. The conductor's handling of this didn't help the situation at the very least.

As I've said no-one comes out of this looking great.

 

[Nym]

Remember theres a good 5 mins at least before this started being recorded...

 

[Minilad]

That would at least partly depend on his behaviour prior to the arrival of the conductor, but none of us know what that was. The conductor's handling of this didn't help the situation at the very least.

As I've said no-one comes out of this looking great.

You seem very loathe to acknowledge any wrongdoing on behalf of Mr Main
Therefore I conclude you are Mr Main and I claim my £5

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Drivel. Hogwash. Piffle. Nonsense.

I've tried to stay out of this thread, but enough is enough. Why is it that whenever somebody stands up for the greater good, there's always somebody somewhere acting the do-gooder condemning them? I'm fed up to the back teeth of reading what smacks of general leftie-ness where every criminal ****bag seems to be far more worthy of sticking up for than the person who lives his life the right way. Simple fact - Mr Main shows a ticket, no need for the Guard or 'bigman' to get involved. Who initiates the argument? Main. Who escalates it? Main. Who gets a whole lot more than he bargained for? Main. And do you know what? Good.

Queue a whole load of left-wing sh*** about how hard done by Mr Main is no doubt...................

It's got nothing to do with leftiness Mr Ferret. I am a little to the left of Chairman Mao but have little or no sympathy for Mr Main and fully support the actions of the big man. Indeed I have acted similarly, in a similar situation in the past.

 

[bnm]

Remember theres a good 5 mins at least before this started being recorded...

Where no one here knows what precisely went on between Sam Main and the conductor.

 

[Swanny200]

It's got nothing to do with leftiness Mr Ferret. I am a little to the left of Chairman Mao but have little or no sympathy for Mr Main and fully support the actions of the big man. Indeed I have acted similarly, in a similar situation in the past.

I have too acted similarly, to be honest it was either him or me and my pregnant wife getting hurt so I made sure it was the former and when you think what could have happened on that train I think the bigman was totally in the right and quite brave to do what he did, there is an element of risk, West Lothian and Falkirk isn't exactly South Central or the Bronx but the risk of not knowing what Mr Main could have been carrying was a brave one to take, his demeanour and his body language was one of "I don't give a s**t, I will do what I want", his actions would have merited a clip round the ear or the strap quite a few years ago, so what is the harm in when being refused onward travel and him refusing to leave, somebody taking a stand for once and actually doing something instead of sitting on their hands.

 

[Ferret]

No. An alternative point of view. That's allowed isn't it? Without descending into ranting language as you go on to do.

An alternative point of view that I think is complete nonsense and I conveyed that. Sure, it was a rant but entirely justified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's got nothing to do with leftiness Mr Ferret. I am a little to the left of Chairman Mao but have little or no sympathy for Mr Main and fully support the actions of the big man. Indeed I have acted similarly, in a similar situation in the past.

I salute you sir!

 

[455driver]

That would at least partly depend on his behaviour prior to the arrival of the conductor, but none of us know what that was. The conductor's handling of this didn't help the situation at the very least.

As I've said no-one comes out of this looking great.

Well mr Mains behaviour must have been of a standard where the chap decided to video it.

Mr Main got what he deserved, if he had shown respect to the conductor in the first place then none of this would have happened but once he started swearing then that was that.
But then if he makes enough noise he will get away with it wont he, just like all the other fare dodgers out there, maybe if there was more of this then law abiding travellers would have a more pleasant journey instead of having to listen to another load of bull as to why a fare dodger shouldnt have to pay.

Oh all the "he shouldnt have touched him" brigade, what do you suggest as a workable alternative which mr Main would have complied with, he had already been asked to pay, provide his name, leave the train etc but had refused.

 

[bnm]

I, too have intervened in a situation that has got out of hand on public transport. I even went so far as to headbutt a violent drunk myself after he had punched one of the three of us trying to get him off the bus. This was a guy who had raised his hand to a woman and was then making all sorts of threats to kill. I'm not proud of my actions, have no desire to be seen as 'a hero', it was a snap decision in the heat of the moment. I was subsequently very conscious of the trouble I could have been in for the assault and had an anxious few days waiting for the knock on the door.

That's an example of when I would (and did) step in. I wouldn't have been happy to see my actions plastered all over social, television and dead tree media. Especially as a few minutes on YouTube would in no way accurately reflect the reality of the situation. One in my case that had been going on for over 20 mins.

What happened before the camera started rolling is often far more important than the few minutes we get to see on YouTube. Just ask the conductor on the Northern 142 when confronted by the guy in the wheelchair. For that reason I am not so quick to judge Sam Main as the the only villain of the piece. If he was genuinely a threat to the conductor, a conductor who we see looming over Sam Main (that would feel threatening to me) then Mr Pollock's actions would've been justified and justifiable. Sitting down, head slightly cowed, hands by his side is more the stance of someone feeling threatened, not being threatening. So, he got a little lippy? That would seem a perfectly normal response from a teenager/young adult male who found himself in this situation because he had (allegedly) been mis-sold a ticket. On that last point and if it was the case, then, yes, Sam Main should've sorted the issue when he first became aware of it but he wouldn't be the first person to believe he would be OK explaining his situation to the conductor. Details taken, UPFN and maybe BTP called if he really was threatening or refused to give his details. Not being picked up and thrown off the train by a fellow passenger. I'm 100% certain that is not how ScotRail tell their staff to deal with these situations.

Seeing things from Sam Main's POV is just a bit of balance on my part. If that means I'm a liberal, Guardian reading, sandal wearing leftie then so be it. But such a cliché to accuse those of us taking an alternative viewpoint to the majority of left leaning political views. This forum has really gone to town on Sam Main based on just a few minutes video. Casting aspersions and making judgements on his character are a little unfair. I could cast aspersions and make judgements on the other individuals involved but I won't, a) because I wasn't there and, b) I don't know these people.

The only conclusion I would make is that no-one in shown in a particularly good light, including the guy holding the camera. The only person (off camera) I agree with is the lady saying, 'There's no need for that.'

Too much of a crowd mentality going on here, gunning for Sam Main, and it is that in particular I don't like.

 

[jon0844]

Do-gooders seem to believe that if you're nice to everyone, they'll do what you say and be nice.

This approach does work for many, and can often diffuse potentially difficult situations (so I am not against the theory or of the opinion you go in all guns blazing from the off) but these same do-gooders usually can't accept that there becomes a point where that approach does not, and cannot, work and you take the gloves off.

Edit: I am sure the video is showing the same stage of what probably happened in the case of bnm - something that had been going on for a while and it was a case of 'enough is enough'.

 

[bnm]

something that had been going on for a while and it was a case of 'enough is enough'.

Yes, possibly Mr Pollock deciding enough is enough because the conductor is delaying the service dealing with Sam Main.

Oh dear. I just speculated. Oops.

 

[Ferret]

Jonmorris, from my experience, you're right. Go in all guns blazing all the time from the off and you get a riot.

bnm - I have to say I couldn't care less about Mr Main's point of view. He lost any chance of most people seeing that when he started swearing and acting up. I'm afraid such people need confronting, and need to learn that their behaviour is not acceptable. Trying to understand them or even make excuses from them is straight out of the Guardian-readers textbook and it just doesn't work.

 

[bnm]

Taking the law into your own hands is straight out of the Daily Mail's textbook and is equally not a recipe for success.

By the way, I neither buy the guardian or the Daily Mail. I do occasionally dip into their websites.

Oh, and last time out (local elections) I voted Conservative.