Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[mangad]

Possibly undertaken by managers and supervisory staff

I did consider that, but it's ten buses and I did wonder how many staff they'd have in Rochdale who would be willing and able to step in.

 

[Tim33160]

I am told that

The Manchester Airport Amazon staff shuttles normally run by First Manchester are being run by Atlantic Travel for the next four days.

First Manchester do still have three vehicles on Huddersfield - Brighouse rail replacement, although one of these didn't run for the first part of the duty this morning because the driver decided to join the strike.

 

[mayneway]

I've noticed theres a number of Queens Road based vehicles not tracking, The 135 is about 5 vehicles down - I'm assuming this is a tracking issue rather than lack of drivers

There was a tickiter update in the early hours of Thursday morning which has effected machine software. My ticket machine was offline for most of the day yesterday and would come back online and then go off again.
Assuming the same issues are occurring today.

 

[Andyh82]

In regards to the strike, how does paying increases work in the Bee Network world?

I.e can the private companies pass the increase onto TfGM as they are guaranteed a set income, or would it come out of their own pockets reducing their agreed margin?

It’s also noticeable how quiet TfGM are about the strikes, with the website only telling you the practicals, no mention of what it’s about even in the FAQs. Had it happened two years ago they’d have been shouting it from the roof tops blaming the operators and saying that the strikes are a key reason why they need to take buses under public control.

 

[mayneway]

In regards to the strike, how does paying increases work in the Bee Network world?

I.e can the private companies pass the increase onto TfGM as they are guaranteed a set income, or would it come out of their own pockets reducing their agreed margin?

It’s also noticeable how quiet TfGM are about the strikes, with the website only telling you the practicals, no mention of what it’s about even in the FAQs. Had it happened two years ago they’d have been shouting it from the roof tops blaming the operators and saying that the strikes are a key reason why they need to take buses under public control.

TFGM haven’t been quiet.
Danny Vaughn who’s some big chief at TFGM has spoken publicly about the strikes, as has Andy Burnham.

 

[mattb7tl]

In regards to the strike, how does paying increases work in the Bee Network world?

I.e can the private companies pass the increase onto TfGM as they are guaranteed a set income, or would it come out of their own pockets reducing their agreed margin?

It’s also noticeable how quiet TfGM are about the strikes, with the website only telling you the practicals, no mention of what it’s about even in the FAQs. Had it happened two years ago they’d have been shouting it from the roof tops blaming the operators and saying that the strikes are a key reason why they need to take buses under public control.

Operators are expected to build anticipated wage increases and other costs into their contract bids. Once agreed, these contracts are effectively fixed, changes to costs are extremely uncommon.

If a contract becomes unprofitable, the operator usually has very little choice. They are generally required to run the services as agreed, with only limited escape routes. For example, on TfL contracts, there’s a single break clause allowing an operator to hand back a route two years before the contract ends. That’s basically the only realistic way to exit early.

We don’t know the exact clauses in the Bee Network contracts, but franchised networks generally operate the same way. Financial risks beyond the fixed contract payments remain with the operators. In other words, it is the operators responsibility to absorb these costs, and they are unlikely to receive help.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not much comment on this thread concerning how the users of these bus services are affected. I remember some contributors to another website really stressing the need to get people out of their cars and onto buses but at times such as this, it all went very quiet by these people.

 

[mangad]

Not much comment on this thread concerning how the users of these bus services are affected. I remember some contributors to another website really stressing the need to get people out of their cars and onto buses but at times such as this, it all went very quiet by these people.

Well what's there to say other than that if you rely on the bus and have no other options, you are stuck!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well what's there to say other than that if you rely on the bus and have no other options, you are stuck!

I use the bus to visit the cemetery of the grave of my late wife and when I tried to book a taxi that would take me there, allow me to lay flowers on the grave and then take me home, I was told the taxi company had been inundated with previously made bookings from Friday to Monday and could not assist me. I am 80 years of age and just out of an eight-day stay on ward A9 at Wythenshawe Hospital as I had fractured a small bone in my pelvis when I fell on my driveway.

 

[mayneway]

Not much comment on this thread concerning how the users of these bus services are affected. I remember some contributors to another website really stressing the need to get people out of their cars and onto buses but at times such as this, it all went very quiet by these people.

Ironically I nipped out yesterday to Gorton Market to get some bits. It’s normally very busy on a Saturday lunchtime but it was dead. It honestly felt like Boxing Day. I suspect the weather played a part but many people just couldn’t get out so in my opinion the strike has a massive effect on retail.
Thursday was extremely busy on the buses - I had a full standing load every trip!

I also know of parents who have kept kids off school and college.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

I use the bus to visit the cemetery of the grave of my late wife and when I tried to book a taxi that would take me there, allow me to lay flowers on the grave and then take me home, I was told the taxi company had been inundated with previously made bookings from Friday to Monday and could not assist me. I am 80 years of age and just out of an eight-day stay on ward A9 at Wythenshawe Hospital as I had fractured a small bone in my pelvis when I fell on my driveway.

They reckon on Friday the average price of an Uber in Manchester had increased by 25% as demand peaked.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Ironically I nipped out yesterday to Gorton Market to get some bits. It’s normally very busy on a Saturday lunchtime but it was dead. It honestly felt like Boxing Day. I suspect the weather played a part but many people just couldn’t get out so in my opinion the strike has a massive effect on retail.
Thursday was extremely busy on the buses - I had a full standing load every trip!

I also know of parents who have kept kids off school and college.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==


They reckon on Friday the average price of an Uber in Manchester had increased by 25% as demand peaked.

I ended up getting a black cab last night, Uber wanted £25 for a 3.5 mile journey. The black cab cost me £16 and no sat nav involved. The Uber taxi is usually around £12 but I normally try and get my last bus to avoid that.

 

[Deerfold]

TFGM haven’t been quiet.
Danny Vaughn who’s some big chief at TFGM has spoken publicly about the strikes, as has Andy Burnham.

*Danny Vaughan
(Danny Vaughn is a Rock Star who's playing Blackpool next month)

 

[mayneway]

*Danny Vaughan
(Danny Vaughn is a Rock Star who's playing Blackpool next month)

Auto correct but yes that’s the guy!

 

[Tim33160]

SERVICE UPDATE: We are expecting the 406 service, operating between Rochdale and Kirkholt, to run once an hour on Monday 22 September.

Departures from Rochdale will be at 08:57, 09:57, 10:57, 11:57, 12:57, 13:57, 14:57, 16:03 and 17:10

Please ensure that you check your service before you travel - bit.ly/42wbKAe

 

[Class 466]

SERVICE UPDATE: We are expecting the 406 service, operating between Rochdale and Kirkholt, to run once an hour on Monday 22 September.

Departures from Rochdale will be at 08:57, 09:57, 10:57, 11:57, 12:57, 13:57, 14:57, 16:03 and 17:10

Please ensure that you check your service before you travel - bit.ly/42wbKAe

As these strikes progress, operators will be able to get a better idea in numbers of how many do or don’t strike and can reintroduce limited services where appropriate. Much like during the rail strikes a few years back.

 

[Tim33160]

Having run nothing for the past three days, Metroline shows on bustimes.org as having run the following school buses this morning...

Hyde Road ADE549 on the 818
Hyde Road TEH113 on the 749
Hyde Road WDS267 on the 789
Hyde Road WDS276 on the 799
Sharston WDS301 on the 786
Sharston WDS308 on the 855
Sharston WDS321 on the 852
Sharston WDS348 on the 877

Also in addition to school services, First Manchester has 69625 running on the 406 now.

 

[mayneway]

As these strikes progress, operators will be able to get a better idea in numbers of how many do or don’t strike and can reintroduce limited services where appropriate. Much like during the rail strikes a few years back.

Would have thought priority would have been school services over the Kirkolt circular.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Operators are expected to build anticipated wage increases and other costs into their contract bids. Once agreed, these contracts are effectively fixed, changes to costs are extremely uncommon.

How can an operator know what percentage rise that the trades union will be asking in any year?

 

[D9006]

How can an operator know what percentage rise that the trades union will be asking in any year?

Also in the document was a column show how you would spend on fuel and oil , as we have seen over the years this can increase drastically out of anyones control. Also a column for cost for repairs and heavy repairs, now on a 4 year deal that’s a lot of mystic Meg calculations. So I was trying predict 2026/27 costs. As for wage bill you really should be going 5% each year, this gives you opportunity to ensure you can keep staffing at 100%. But if another operator pays more and staff move to them, you do not have much wiggle room

 

[mayneway]

Also in the document was a column show how you would spend on fuel and oil , as we have seen over the years this can increase drastically out of anyones control. Also a column for cost for repairs and heavy repairs, now on a 4 year deal that’s a lot of mystic Meg calculations. So I was trying predict 2026/27 costs. As for wage bill you really should be going 5% each year, this gives you opportunity to ensure you can keep staffing at 100%. But if another operator pays more and staff move to them, you do not have much wiggle room

That’s how tendering works. Depending on the length of the contracts, a business needs to build into the tender price the possibility on costs including labour increasing.

In Manchester during Covid a certain coach operator who had previously sold out to a Diamond bid on a load of TFGM contracts at stupidly low prices to guarantee work and cash flow during the lockdowns etc. They won the work but at the end of Covid costs such as fuel started shooting ip in price. The contracts were handed back to TFGM and the business was closed because he had failed to build into the tender price the possibility of costs going up. He allegedly went to TFGM asking for more money to continue running the work and was told NO!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could the four-day industrial action that has just been taken be seen as a third-party entry into franchise tendering matters?

 

[Dwarfer1979]

That’s how tendering works. Depending on the length of the contracts, a business needs to build into the tender price the possibility on costs including labour increasing.

In Manchester during Covid a certain coach operator who had previously sold out to a Diamond bid on a load of TFGM contracts at stupidly low prices to guarantee work and cash flow during the lockdowns etc. They won the work but at the end of Covid costs such as fuel started shooting ip in price. The contracts were handed back to TFGM and the business was closed because he had failed to build into the tender price the possibility of costs going up. He allegedly went to TFGM asking for more money to continue running the work and was told NO!

Most councils will negotiate price uplifts if costs are above expectation and most contracts have release clauses that have a reasonable notice period to end the contract early if it is no longer viable. The big Combined Authorities are often less willing to do the former in my experience of dealing with a number of them and I'm not sure big area franchising will work if they do the later which leaves these with a greater risk to the sustainability of the business than normal tendering if unexpected things (like a war causing a spike in fuel prices) cause costs to escalate.

 

[mayneway]

Most councils will negotiate price uplifts if costs are above expectation and most contracts have release clauses that have a reasonable notice period to end the contract early if it is no longer viable. The big Combined Authorities are often less willing to do the former in my experience of dealing with a number of them and I'm not sure big area franchising will work if they do the later which leaves these with a greater risk to the sustainability of the business than normal tendering if unexpected things (like a war causing a spike in fuel prices) cause costs to escalate.

I would imagine any combined authority would argue that any bidder should build potential cost I creases into the original bid. Yes it’s hard as nobody has a crystal ball but it’s the way it works.

 

[Tim33160]

Published Monday for a service change the previous day!!

Bus Service Change - 66​

Duration
Sun 21 Sep, 12:00am - Sun 28 Sep, 11:59pm
Operators impacted
Bee Network
Services impacted
66
Stops impacted
All
From Sunday 21 September, we’re changing the 66 route to run via Trafford Road, Cawdor Street, Liverpool Road and Barton Road in Patricroft . This follows a recent collision between a bus and the bridge on Barton Lane to ensure the service continues to operate safely. This change is in place until further notice. information and advice

So just like the 52 has been diverted away from the low bridge!!

 

[mattb7tl]

Franchising is a tried and tested system pre-dating deregulation. It is less about having a crystal ball and much more about crafting a resilient and predictable plan to stay within your costs for the term of the contract.
Companies can very much make direct supply agreements to have more predictable and shock resistant costs. It is for this reason why renegotiations are uncommon. It takes a major industry wide shock (like COVID) to go to the negotiation table.

 

[johncrossley]

Competitive tendering has been commonplace in the provision of various kinds of public services for many years, especially since the 80s. For example, refuse collection and leisure centres. Obviously whatever public service you are talking about, there is always a debate whether it is best to privatise in this manner or run services fully in house by the council or central government.

 

[M60lad]

Their obviously just covering their backs but it does seem strange for Diamond to reroute their 66 service because of the bridge as considering the route it takes there are parts of the route where I think they would struggle to get a double decker round.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

I would imagine any combined authority would argue that any bidder should build potential cost I creases into the original bid. Yes it’s hard as nobody has a crystal ball but it’s the way it works.

And this is one of the reasons why smaller operators weren't successful in winning anything (or even bidding), the risk is too high. If Stagecoach get their sums slightly wrong then their profit is reduced for a bit, if a small operator gets their sums wrong they go out of business - it is also easier for a big group to hedge costs like fuel for the contract that a small operator will struggle to support in the same way. London has highlighted this, and on smaller scale route contracts rather than big area ones, as contracts normally are losing money by the end of the term which is offset by the profits from new contracts but smaller operators can't manage the volume to win contracts every year to allow new profits to cover old losses so at some point they get to a point where they just have loss making work left and ran out of cash.

Cost spikes may not be obvious when bidding but they happen often enough that the risk to a business can be high without any pattern to the likelihood of it happening over the period of a specific contract (I think there have been 3 fuel price spikes in my 20-odd years in the industry where bus fuel prices increased by 2 or 3 times the standard rates of inflation over a period of weeks and there have been 2 wage spikes caused by shortages caused by matters outside the bus industry).

It is not helped by councils using a metric for inflation (either RPI or CPI) to calculate price increases that has no connection to actual costs in the bus industry and often runs some way below and refusing to be flexible on this when it is shown to not be reflective or reality. What a tendering authority is effectively encouraging by insisting on such a position is that the initial price is inflated to allow for the unknown, but expected, cost spike that is assumed may turn up in a couple of years and if it doesn't the operator comes out on top. It could be argued that it is in the councils interest to encourage a more partnership approach with a willingness to negotiate prices if costs spike to ensure they aren't overcharged at the start just in case.

It isn't a simple answer and no approach is perfect but it is important to appreciate the downsides and risks of a specific position as well as the upsides. A more partnerships approach requires openness and flexibility from both partners but allows risks to be better managed and shared without loading upfront costs, a more rigid contractual relationship increases risk costs to one partner or the other but requires less discussion and contractor management through the period of the contract.

 

[mayneway]

And this is one of the reasons why smaller operators weren't successful in winning anything (or even bidding), the risk is too high. If Stagecoach get their sums slightly wrong then their profit is reduced for a bit, if a small operator gets their sums wrong they go out of business - it is also easier for a big group to hedge costs like fuel for the contract that a small operator will struggle to support in the same way. London has highlighted this, and on smaller scale route contracts rather than big area ones, as contracts normally are losing money by the end of the term which is offset by the profits from new contracts but smaller operators can't manage the volume to win contracts every year to allow new profits to cover old losses so at some point they get to a point where they just have loss making work left and ran out of cash.

I do agree with you, and In terms of smaller operators certainly where the Bee Network is involved I think it would have been ideal to keep school contracts on smaller 2 year contracts so smaller operators could bid on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2025 ==

Their obviously just covering their backs but it does seem strange for Diamond to reroute their 66 service because of the bridge as considering the route it takes there are parts of the route where I think they would struggle to get a double decker round.

It’s not ‘their 66’ and won’t have been done by Diamond.
TFGM came under quite a bit of pressure after the bridge strike so this is a cover their backs procedure.

Not sure how true it is but there’s possibly plans in place to put width restrictions either side of the bridge early next year to stop any further bridge strikes which is possibly another reason why buses are being rerouted away from the road.

 

[Tim33160]

Further Bee Network strikes are planned from Tues 30 Sept to Thurs 2 Oct
details at https://tfgm.com/bus-industrial-action
(seems same as last weekend:
all Metroline depots, all Stagecoach depots other than Queens Rd, all First - other than some school journeys at various depots)

One problem identified on Monday - and presumed on previous strike days:
the app not having any real-time information as to routes and journeys at every bus stop, reverted to showing "timetabled" journeys
Only if you clicked on "disruptions" did the app tell you there was no buses running!!

Surely there should be a facility to switch it off / state no buses running at the various bus stops ??