Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[mayneway]

Manchester City centre was at a standstill on Thursday afternoon as roadworks on Chapel Street started. Over 40 buses queued for over an hour waiting to cross trinity way and get into the centre with some drivers reportedly running out of driving hours while stuck in the chaos.
Apparently it was slightly better on Friday evening.
Salford council and TFGM are saying the roadworks - to install bike lanes, will continue for the next 12 months!

Staggering picture shows 40 BUSES stuck in city centre roadworks

Drivers have complained they're queuing up to an hour at the bottleneck

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Class 466]

Manchester City centre was at a standstill on Thursday afternoon as roadworks on Chapel Street started. Over 40 buses queued for over an hour waiting to cross trinity way and get into the centre with some drivers reportedly running out of driving hours while stuck in the chaos.
Apparently it was slightly better on Friday evening.
Salford council and TFGM are saying the roadworks - to install bike lanes, will continue for the next 12 months!

Staggering picture shows 40 BUSES stuck in city centre roadworks

Drivers have complained they're queuing up to an hour at the bottleneck

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Bike lanes should not be the priority when it’s taxis that block up roads every evening. Bike lanes won’t fix that. Certain areas really need to be restricted or changed to give buses greater priority to really stop everyone driving into the city centre. Some actual action on the scurge of terrible uber drivers would be nice too.

 

[Andyh82]

Bike lanes should not be the priority when it’s taxis that block up roads every evening. Bike lanes won’t fix that. Certain areas really need to be restricted or changed to give buses greater priority to really stop everyone driving into the city centre. Some actual action on the scurge of terrible uber drivers would be nice too.

The issue in Manchester seems to be that TfGM are pro-bus, but Manchester and Salford City Councils are pro cyclist and pedestrians which means anti-bus as ultimately space for buses is reduced

The journey in from Salford Crescent is already painful with the speed humps and the chicanes which were obviously designed by someone who doesn’t know how long a bus is.

 

[mayneway]

Bike lanes should not be the priority when it’s taxis that block up roads every evening. Bike lanes won’t fix that. Certain areas really need to be restricted or changed to give buses greater priority to really stop everyone driving into the city centre. Some actual action on the scurge of terrible uber drivers would be nice too.

It’s just not working. Routes in and out of Manchester really are chaos and as I’ve said all along, painting buses yellow and bringing them all under local control won’t make them any more reliable.
I can only assume that people trying to get out of the city centre on Thursday evening were waiting a long time for buses home.

 

[Tim33160]

Traffic Congestion in the city centre on Thursday was compounded by the Away Fans walk to the MUFC ground along Deansgate which set off around 5pm.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What was the cause of the service 368 service disruption from Stockport to Wythenshawe in the mid-afternoon period on Thursday?

 

[Stan Drews]

….and as I’ve said all along, painting buses yellow and bringing them all under local control won’t make them any more reliable.

Wait! …what? Are you suggesting that the politicians were lying?

 

[mayneway]

Traffic Congestion in the city centre on Thursday was compounded by the Away Fans walk to the MUFC ground along Deansgate which set off around 5pm.

The gridlock started at 4, colleague of mine went over his driving hours on chapel street, he left Salford shopping centre heading towards the city centre at 16:15!

 

[Class 466]

Wait! …what? Are you suggesting that the politicians were lying?

All this and more Coming soon to West Yorkshire with the “Weaver Network”.

 

[mayneway]

Wait! …what? Are you suggesting that the politicians were lying?

Not so much politicians but the occasional bus users who all thought it would work brilliantly.
Had things still been commercial most of the operators would have put diversions in place and everything would have been slightly late but been better than everything sat there for 2 hours!
Depot comms teams have their hands tied now by TFGM so it’s TFGM who have to agree to divert, but instead let everything get snarled up. The result - potentially punctuality and missed trip fines to the operators.

 

[158756]

Manchester City centre was at a standstill on Thursday afternoon as roadworks on Chapel Street started. Over 40 buses queued for over an hour waiting to cross trinity way and get into the centre with some drivers reportedly running out of driving hours while stuck in the chaos.
Apparently it was slightly better on Friday evening.
Salford council and TFGM are saying the roadworks - to install bike lanes, will continue for the next 12 months!

Staggering picture shows 40 BUSES stuck in city centre roadworks

Drivers have complained they're queuing up to an hour at the bottleneck

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Example from bustimes.org - on the tracking you can see this bus was outside the cathedral at 16:57, didn't get through the lights until 18:50. That's nearly 2 hours to cover what can't be much more than 100 yards.

Vehicles – 8 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

But it was worse if you were on the 8 leaving Shudehill at 17:26. Nearly 3 hours to get to Salford Central

Vehicles – 8 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have TfGM issued a full statement on the matter in discussion.

 

[Stan Drews]

Not so much politicians but the occasional bus users who all thought it would work brilliantly.
Had things still been commercial most of the operators would have put diversions in place and everything would have been slightly late but been better than everything sat there for 2 hours!
Depot comms teams have their hands tied now by TFGM so it’s TFGM who have to agree to divert, but instead let everything get snarled up. The result - potentially punctuality and missed trip fines to the operators.

The occasional bus users only thought it would work brilliantly because the politicians (and various campaign groups) told them it would!

 

[mangad]

Not so much politicians but the occasional bus users who all thought it would work brilliantly.
Had things still been commercial most of the operators would have put diversions in place and everything would have been slightly late but been better than everything sat there for 2 hours!
Depot comms teams have their hands tied now by TFGM so it’s TFGM who have to agree to divert, but instead let everything get snarled up. The result - potentially punctuality and missed trip fines to the operators.

So TfGM need to learn to be more adaptive. No one said this stuff was going to be perfect from day one. And there is absolutely nothing to say that a franchise system can't adapt.

 

[Cesarcollie]

So TfGM need to learn to be more adaptive. No one said this stuff was going to be perfect from day one. And there is absolutely nothing to say that a franchise system can't adapt.

Adaptive? This suggests TfGM have no experienced staff, no contingency plans, and no clue. How long have they been planning all this ?

 

[tomoufc]

Stopping traffic in Manchester City centre is easy: get rid of the car parks

 

[mayneway]

So TfGM need to learn to be more adaptive. No one said this stuff was going to be perfect from day one. And there is absolutely nothing to say that a franchise system can't adapt.

This statement has made me laugh. TFGM have had plenty of time to be more adaptive - everytime there’s a concert on at the arena or during the Christmas markets. They all sat in an office watching the traffic get worse and worse on traffic cameras and did absolutely nothing about it.

Of course had the traffic been blocking a tram line the lights would have all been kept on green till it all cleared up! Adaptive indeed.

 

[M60lad]

The other thing with Bee Network now as has been mentioned before is that even if a service is late it has to run the full route whereas before depending on how late the service was companies were able to turn the service short to try and get the service back on time.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The other thing with Bee Network now as has been mentioned before is that even if a service is late it has to run the full route whereas before depending on how late the service was companies were able to turn the service short to try and get the service back on time.

Regardless of whether the driver is running out of 'driving hours'?

 

[mayneway]

Regardless of whether the driver is running out of 'driving hours'?

The info from @M60lad above isn’t quite correct. TFGM don’t like journeys being curtailed once they have started, early morning and late night services must run and less frequent services and services to or past hospitals must run but yes it’s all very dependant on drivers hours.

 

[mangad]

The info from @M60lad above isn’t quite correct. TFGM don’t like journeys being curtailed once they have started, early morning and late night services must run and less frequent services and services to or past hospitals must run but yes it’s all very dependant on drivers hours.

There was a route near me that pre Bee Network would, on an almost daily basis, find its last services of the day curtailed because the bus was late. An hourly service that after 5pm was essentially useless for the people on the last mile and a half of the route. why would anyone rely on it? Well, they didn't.

If a route is high frequency, there is an argument for curtailing in certain conditions. But whilst late bus is not ideal, its far better than people standing at bus stops with nothing coming.

 

[Class 466]

The other thing with Bee Network now as has been mentioned before is that even if a service is late it has to run the full route whereas before depending on how late the service was companies were able to turn the service short to try and get the service back on time.

Yeah this doesn't match my experiences on some of my local routes - if they're late enough they'll turn at Whitefield Met instead of Bury Interchange

 

[M60lad]

I do understand I meant dependent on drivers hours but I what I was more getting out was take the other week for example when an incident on M60 caused major problems throughout the afternoon and afternoon peak rush hour I finished work at 18:00 while 18:14 181 to Shaw didn't run I actually spotted about 4 81s (Manchester-Oldham) and 2 of these virtually left Manchester together despite one of them that must of been running at least 30 mins or more late. In the past pre Bee Network this wouldn't have happened as one of them would have either have been turned short or one would have left Oldham to run dead to Manchester to try and get back on time.

 

[158756]

Chaos in the Chapel Street area again last night

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ster-news/i-just-driven-sshow-making-31640690

Salford Council deny any blame -

Councillor Mike McCusker, Lead Member for Planning, Transport and Sustainable Development at Salford City Council said:

“Salford City Council have planned the works on Chapel Street carefully, and as part of that process all partners have considered and explored a number of options to maintain traffic flows in the city centre. This was in partnership with Manchester City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester.

“The current one-way closure remains the safest, most efficient option to complete the works, balancing the needs of residents, businesses, pedestrians, cyclists, and public transport in a constrained city centre environment.

“The one-way closure extends over approximately 400 meters of the city centre road network. While roadworks can impact disruption to traffic flow, the periods of increased congestion and delays are primarily due to the overall capacity of the network being affected by a combination of incidents, popular events, and high vehicle volumes, rather than solely by the temporary roadworks.”

If this is going on until next year TfGM should just divert the buses for the duration. And if the councils are determined not to fix the traffic around Chapel Street and Deansgate the diversion might as well be permanent.

But buses were stuck in the queue as well - with one stuck awkwardly on the box junction at Bridge Street, engine off, driver standing around, door wide open and passengers staring out the window agog.

Does that count towards drivers hours?

 

[Andyh82]

Look at this no. 8 from last night

Vehicles – 8 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

Left Shudehill at 16:48, passed Salford Central at 19:03. There are a few journeys like that

Due to all no. 8 buses being in Manchester, no buses left Bolton from 18:20 to 20:20 on a service that is supposed to run every 12 minutes

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does that count towards drivers hours?

Yes - not free to dispose of your time as you wish

 

[M60lad]

While 8s seem to be getting stuck in the traffic it seems that Stagecoach's services (67 & 100s) are heading out of Manchester via Trinity Way during peak periods if Bus Times is to be believed.

 

[tomoufc]

The Chapel Street works are for the long term benefit of transport in central Greater Manchester. It’s a big project that will inevitably cause a lot of disruption. Disruption can be managed but not avoided, in a city totally over-reliant on private motor vehicles.

 

[py_megapixel]

The Chapel Street works are for the long term benefit of transport in central Greater Manchester. It’s a big project that will inevitably cause a lot of disruption. Disruption can be managed but not avoided, in a city totally over-reliant on private motor vehic

Totally agree with that sentiment. Salford centre is well overdue some works to civilise it.
On the other hand, if those works are rendering several important high-frequency bus corridors practically unusable, I think it's reasonable to question whether the disruption is being managed as well as it should be.

 

[mayneway]

While 8s seem to be getting stuck in the traffic it seems that Stagecoach's services (67 & 100s) are heading out of Manchester via Trinity Way during peak periods if Bus Times is to be believed.

Until someone complains to TFGM that they waited 2 hours on deansgate for a 67/100 and then they will insist they use normal route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2025 ==

The Chapel Street works are for the long term benefit of transport in central Greater Manchester. It’s a big project that will inevitably cause a lot of disruption. Disruption can be managed but not avoided, in a city totally over-reliant on private motor vehicles.

Not disagreeing with your statement but it’s the length of time it’s estimated to take and the chaos In the mean time. If this was in china or Japan it would have been undertaken and completed in a matter of weeks with little impact to everyone not 12 months.
Wait till the Christmas markets start then it will be chaos!