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Bee Network Service/Route Discussion
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daodao
Established Member
MetrolineManchester (Comfort del Gro) are taking over the Wythenshawe depot from Arriva, who are removing all their buses when franchising is introduced. I have seen a copy of a MetrolineManchester staff newsletter from September 2024 which states that the Wythenshawe depot will be equipped with ADL E200 MMC buses only. This bus, also marketed as the Alexander Dennis Enviro200, is a single-decker which can be supplied in various lengths from 8.9 m to 12.8 m.
There is no information in the bulletin on how long these buses will be, and whether they will all be the same size, but they will be replacing Mellor Stratas on some of the Altrincham local routes as well as full size single deck buses on some major routes such as 263 from Altrincham to Manchester. The routes allocated to this depot from 5/1/25 will be: 150, 245/7, 248/9 (renumbered from 18/19), 263, 281-6 inclusive, 313 and 370/1.
Some routes currently run by Mellor Stratas (e.g. 282 to the Oldfield Road Estate) are having to be revised slightly to accommodate larger buses. Route 263 is the lineal descendant of Manchester Corporation Tramways route 47, and largely parallels the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham Railway (MSJ&A) railway line, other than a slight detour via All Saints. Route 47 diminished in importance when this line was first electrified in 1931 (the tramway closed a few weeks later), was renumbered 63 in 1967, and became even less important when the parallel MSJ&A line was converted to a frequent tram service in 1992.
Surprisingly, route 150 (which only operates north of the River Mersey) has been allocated to this depot rather than Hyde Road depot, possibly as the latter may be being provided with double deck buses only; this is unclear in the newsletter as Volvo/MCV BZL buses have both double and single deck versions. Route 280 to Dunham for which small minibuses are currently essential will be run as part of the small Trafford franchise by Diamond (Rotala).
Last edited:
Dfatcontroller
Member
According to Bus Lists on the Web; there are two different fleet numbering series for the new Enviro200s.
DEM471-DEM482
DE483-DE520
This is likely to indicate differing lengths.
Away from the changes in Altrincham, almost every service has minor timetable changes. A few are getting improved evening services (256, 314, 368). The 38 is increased to every 12 minutes Monday-Saturday (why I'm not sure, since the 38 exists to compete with the 36 and 37, so TfGM are spending more money to compete with themselves), the 201 has an improved Sunday service. The 86 has a much improved morning peak timetable (e.g. 9 services arrive at Piccadilly between 8 and 9am compared to the current 4) with more journeys starting from Southern Cemetery (peak only) and a couple from Chorlton Green (morning peak only).
Away from the Bee Network, some journeys on High Peak's 199 that only run between Stockport and the Airport are withdrawn. It is unclear if this is directly related to franchising but the timing would suggest it might be.
Note Diamond Bus NW have the Trafford Small franchise operating from Eccles depot and covering routes
87: Chorlton Green – Chorlton – Withington – Manchester;
254 Stretford – Davyhulme;
279 Altrincham – Lymm;
280 Altrincham - Partington ;
288 Altrincham - Manchester Airport.
87: Chorlton Green – Chorlton – Withington – Manchester;
254 Stretford – Davyhulme;
279 Altrincham – Lymm;
280 Altrincham - Partington ;
288 Altrincham - Manchester Airport.
daodao
Established Member
Route 280 will be curtailed at Dunham when franchising is introduced.
Is/Will there be anyway of finding out what time the last buses will be on Christmas/New Years Eve? I can't seem to find any timetables yet on Bee Network website and Bus Times hasn't even been updated yet and is still showing normal service levels every day over Christmas Period.
I'm trying to figure out how the new timetable for the 313 Stockport to Airport will work.
From what I can see most of Monday to Friday daytime the buses both arrive and leave Stockport at 05 and 35 mins past the hour. Are they going to have 30 minute layover in Stockport? I'm sure someone knows what they're doing but it looks like running this from Wythenshawe rather than Stockport could end up messing up this route. I'd hope Metroline get some double decks on it as well as it gets busy at school times especially.
From what I can see most of Monday to Friday daytime the buses both arrive and leave Stockport at 05 and 35 mins past the hour. Are they going to have 30 minute layover in Stockport? I'm sure someone knows what they're doing but it looks like running this from Wythenshawe rather than Stockport could end up messing up this route. I'd hope Metroline get some double decks on it as well as it gets busy at school times especially.
daodao
Established Member
The running time of the Monday to Friday daytime service from the Airport Freight Centre to Stockport has been extended by 3 minutes, so a half hourly service will now require 4 buses, as at Monday to Friday peak times when running times are longer. The Wythenshawe depot is being equipped just with single deck buses, which should be adequate for all the routes to be run from this depot. If there is a high demand due to school traffic on any particular route, this is best catered for with a separate dedicated school bus service, rather than running semi-empty costlier double deck buses round the clock just because one weekday service might be overloaded due to school traffic.
While the current timetable could possibly be run with three buses off peak, the turnarounds would be too tight. In practice it looks like Stagecoach interwork it with other routes at Stockport, but that arrangement won't be continuing if the 313 is moving to Wythenshawe
johncrossley
Established Member
Rosso (who operate the 464 across the Greater Manchester boundary) will not accept the Hopper fare.
www.transdevbus.co.uk
Surely this can't be right? I thought all buses crossing the boundary that operate with a permit have to accept the full range of tickets.
simple fares for 2025
www.transdevbus.co.uk
Surely this can't be right? I thought all buses crossing the boundary that operate with a permit have to accept the full range of tickets.
robertclark125
Established Member
The statement is a bit ambiguous. It could mean what you've suggested, that Rosso has taken the decision, or TfGM has taken the decision that Hopper tickets won't be valid on Rosso.Rosso (who operate the 464 across the Greater Manchester boundary) will not accept the Hopper fare.
simple fares for 2025
Surely this can't be right? I thought all buses crossing the boundary that operate with a permit have to accept the full range of tickets.
TfGM website states the following:Rosso (who operate the 464 across the Greater Manchester boundary) will not accept the Hopper fare.
simple fares for 2025
Surely this can't be right? I thought all buses crossing the boundary that operate with a permit have to accept the full range of tickets.
Rosso isn't Bee Network after all. To be honest, we're lucky that they're still doing the £2 fare and day tickets will still be valid. That could have easily not been the case, like it is in London. Indeed tap-on and capping, will only make it harder to maintain the status quo.
Leedsbusman
Member
I understand from contacts in GM that it’s a TfGM decision to restrict the hopper tickets to Bee Network routes.
johncrossley
Established Member
Presumably because TfGM require them to accept them. Rosso will accept weekly or longer Bee Bus tickets which they don't currently, so in those cases they will increase their acceptance. They currently only accept the Anybus ticket.
I would imagine that, if nothing else, there's a big technical consideration in all this. Trying to get hopper fares working across multiple operators and multiple systems surely will be a right faff.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
That applies to all Transdev services (including Witchway and Red Express) that operate in Greater Manchester as they're not part of Bee Network.Rosso (who operate the 464 across the Greater Manchester boundary) will not accept the Hopper fare.
simple fares for 2025
Surely this can't be right? I thought all buses crossing the boundary that operate with a permit have to accept the full range of tickets.
johncrossley
Established Member
If this is the case, contactless capping on non-Bee Network routes would seem pretty unlikely.
4cryingoutloud
Member
- Joined
- 28 Mar 2017
- Messages
- 35
That's not the case - all permit operators in Tranche 1&2 areas (including the four Transdev opcos) already accept Bee Bus period tickets - limited to Greater Manchester county boundary.
johncrossley
Established Member
Has that ever been publicised?
Bus tickets
There are plenty of tickets that you can buy to travel on buses in Greater Manchester, including Bee Network buses.
says you should only get a Bee Bus ticket if you are travelling on a Bee Network bus outside GM.
Logically, permit holders in Tranches 1 and 2 should already be accepting the full range of tickets, but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. People will have been buying an Anybus ticket when they don't need to if what you say is true.
Leedsbusman
Member
No it hasn't been actively publicised because it is an anomaly currently. The Bee Bus tickets are sold to cover bits of the Bee Network (eg Chorley and Huddersfield) where Anybus isn't valid. Anybus and Bee Bus are currently priced the same. From January, Bee Bus will be the prime ticket for journeys wholly within GM - including permit buses. It will also be valid still on Bee Network cross boundary buses. Anybus will be valid into the areas beyond GM as currently and will be slightly more expensive (except days which match). Its not exactly simple!Has that ever been publicised?
Bus tickets
There are plenty of tickets that you can buy to travel on buses in Greater Manchester, including Bee Network buses.tfgm.com
says you should only get a Bee Bus ticket if you are travelling on a Bee Network bus outside GM.
Logically, permit holders in Tranches 1 and 2 should already be accepting the full range of tickets, but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. People will have been buying an Anybus ticket when they don't need to if what you say is true.
Paul
Statto
Established Member
Anybus, is that now the name for the Wayfarer ticket?
Anybus is the System One bus only ticket. Wayfarer does train and tram as well.
Statto
Established Member
I see, that clears that up, well for me anyway.
There's a page about it on the TfGM website but yeah basically only really an issue if you are using non Bee Network buses. Would be simpler if the Anybus zone didn't extend beyond Greater Manchester. But that's historical issues and ain't going to change.
So if you live near the GM boundary with Merseyside and you get Arriva/Warrington/HTL buses... Tough s**t.
mayneway
Member
Permit holders will not accept Bee network tickets because TFGM will not share revenue with commercial operators.Has that ever been publicised?
Bus tickets
There are plenty of tickets that you can buy to travel on buses in Greater Manchester, including Bee Network buses.
says you should only get a Bee Bus ticket if you are travelling on a Bee Network bus outside GM.
Logically, permit holders in Tranches 1 and 2 should already be accepting the full range of tickets, but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. People will have been buying an Anybus ticket when they don't need to if what you say is true.
System one Anybus will focus on bus plus train/tram from January with the Bee network range will be default on ticket machines.
Yes. But let's be blunt. Such things are ALWAYS the case when you're on the boundary between operators.
Bee Network when all is said and done is an operator. If Stagecoach ran all the buses in the area commercially and introduced a hopper, what would happen if you tried to get on a competitor's service with a hopper ticket? You'd be told to go away.
Realistically what is the alternative? It's very easy to say "every bus in Greater Manchester must allow hoppers". But what happens when the bus crosses the boundary? What happens when the bus comes from outside into Greater Manchester? How do you integrate all the operators technically so they can even recognise the hopper? How do you fairly allocate revenue?
Whole thing is a nightmare of complexity. There's a good reason why London hasn't gone anywhere near close with this. Permit buses there are completely outside the travel card/TfL system, yet alone hoppers.
Like London there's also winners in this for Bee Network buses running outside the county