Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

The answer here is to fix the train, not to replace it with a bus! If you really want to go by bus, that has been made easier recently by the 132 increasing to every 30 minutes and you can connect onto the V2 at Atherton or the V1 and V2 at Tyldesley. From January, there will be one hour bus fare so changing buses won't cost more.

Looking at a timetable from 2015, the 32 used to take almost 90 minutes Wigan - Manchester Piccadilly & that was off peak, some journeys took 2 hours in the peaks, & this was the direct route, not sure the route is needed because of the journey times would put a lot off from using it.

Both these are valid points. If the train service isn't reliable, sort out the train service! For end to end traffic, the train is quicker by far so get that addressed.

Whilst the 32 wasn't as slow as suggested (nearer 70 mins - I think you might be thinking of the 33? ), the timings now if you were to restore it would be close to @Statto suggests. Also, whilst it was "rammed", it wasn't because of end to end traffic. It was mainly because of the traffic that came out of places like Tyldesley and Atherton - passengers that are now on the V1/V2, and rendered the 32/33 redundant.

As @johncrossley points out, get the 132 and then the V1/V2. However, if you look at that, you're still looking at 45 mins to Tyldesley, say 10 mins interchange time incl the walk to the Busway stop, and then 55 mins into Manchester. The train take 45 mins and runs 4 times an hour - it just wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Statto]

Both these are valid points. If the train service isn't reliable, sort out the train service! For end to end traffic, the train is quicker by far so get that addressed.

Whilst the 32 wasn't as slow as suggested (nearer 70 mins - I think you might be thinking of the 33? ), the timings now if you were to restore it would be close to @Statto suggests. Also, whilst it was "rammed", it wasn't because of end to end traffic. It was mainly because of the traffic that came out of places like Tyldesley and Atherton - passengers that are now on the V1/V2, and rendered the 32/33 redundant.

As @johncrossley points out, get the 132 and then the V1/V2. However, if you look at that, you're still looking at 45 mins to Tyldesley, say 10 mins interchange time incl the walk to the Busway stop, and then 55 mins into Manchester. The train take 45 mins and runs 4 times an hour - it just wouldn't be worth it.

Here's the timetable from 2015, when the 32 took nearly 90 minutes end to end off peak, & 2 hours in the peak, so yes it was quite long even though it was the direct route

GM 32 251015.pdf

drive.google.com

Like you say, most passengers would have been going from Atherton or Tyldesley to Manchester rather than Wigan - Manchester, those passengers have now migrated to the V1, V2 & is more frequent than the 32 was, so much so that in 2016 Stagecoach cut the 32 to operate Wigan - Wardley Park & Ride before withdrawing the 32 entirely in 2017

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Here's the timetable from 2015, when the 32 took nearly 90 minutes end to end off peak, & 2 hours in the peak, so yes it was quite long even though it was the direct route

GM 32 251015.pdf

drive.google.com

Like you say, most passengers would have been going from Atherton or Tyldesley to Manchester rather than Wigan - Manchester, those passengers have now migrated to the V1, V2 & is more frequent than the 32 was, so much so that in 2016 Stagecoach cut the 32 to operate Wigan - Wardley Park & Ride before withdrawing the 32 entirely in 2017

Good lord - that 32 got a lot slower between my leaving the area and eventual withdrawal Thanks for sharing.

You can see the problem with the 35 though. Most journeys take 41 mins Mcr to Worsley off peak but as the pm rush grows, so journey times become elongated - 1628 departure takes 62 mins!

 

[Statto]

Good lord - that 32 got a lot slower between my leaving the area and eventual withdrawal Thanks for sharing.

You can see the problem with the 35 though. Most journeys take 41 mins Mcr to Worsley off peak but as the pm rush grows, so journey times become elongated - 1628 departure takes 62 mins!

It's not my timetable although i have a copy of a similar timetable somewhere at home, it comes from this great site, they cover the GM area, is very detailed too.

Timetables

RAILWAYMEDIA-British Railway Pictures

www.railwaymedia.co.uk

It's not only traffic, but traffic lights at what feels like every junction that have slowed buses right down, some journeys from Shudehill Interchange to Salford Shopping Centre can take near 30 minutes now see the 8 weekday timetable.

 

[D9006]

The 32 was well used by passengers between Wigan and Atherton, always a good load waiting at stops at Hindley bird stop( I know was one of them). All well saying a connection available onto the V1 or V2. Coming home after a long day nothing better than a direct bus. is this what the bee network was all about, providing services . The 615 I think is just a token gesture by TfGM to say look at the bee network we are restoring your services, it’s only using an asset that was sitting idle

Another option extended V2 to Hindley Green and Hindley Council office, If not some of the peak journeys to cover this as an option.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 32 was well used by passengers between Wigan and Atherton, always a good load waiting at stops at Hindley bird stop( I know was one of them). All well saying a connection available onto the V1 or V2. Coming home after a long day nothing better than a direct bus. is this what the bee network was all about, providing services . The 615 I think is just a token gesture by TfGM to say look at the bee network we are restoring your services, it’s only using an asset that was sitting idle

Another option extended V2 to Hindley Green and Hindley Council office, If not some of the peak journeys to cover this as an option.

The 32 may well have been well used between Wigan and Atherton...but your point was to have a Wigan to Manchester service because the trains are too unreliable.

What it sounds more like is....you want a direct bus from Hindley to Manchester?

The 615 isn't the only enhancement. The 132 is getting doubled. And whilst Bee Network is about providing services, it isn't about providing direct links from everywhere to everywhere, especially if there's a parallel rail link.

 

[D9006]

The 32 may well have been well used between Wigan and Atherton...but your point was to have a Wigan to Manchester service because the trains are too unreliable.

What it sounds more like is....you want a direct bus from Hindley to Manchester?

The 615 isn't the only enhancement. The 132 is getting doubled. And whilst Bee Network is about providing services, it isn't about providing direct links from everywhere to everywhere, especially if there's a parallel rail link.

Very true so on that basis the services from Bolton to Wigan should also be withdrawn, Bolton to Manchester, Bury to Manchester, etc etc etc. A parallel train should be enhanced by a parall train service. The 32 hardly runs parallel with the train service. I no longer have need of a direct service as find using the car more handy now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2024 ==

The 32 may well have been well used between Wigan and Atherton...but your point was to have a Wigan to Manchester service because the trains are too unreliable.

What it sounds more like is....you want a direct bus from Hindley to Manchester?

The 615 isn't the only enhancement. The 132 is getting doubled. And whilst Bee Network is about providing services, it isn't about providing direct links from everywhere to everywhere, especially if there's a parallel rail link.

Hindley centre is roughly a mile away from the train station uphill too

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Very true so on that basis the services from Bolton to Wigan should also be withdrawn, Bolton to Manchester, Bury to Manchester, etc etc etc. A parallel train should be enhanced by a parall train service. The 32 hardly runs parallel with the train service. I no longer have need of a direct service as find using the car more handy now

Not the same thing at all. Bury and Bolton to Manchester were commercially viable services when Bee Network took over.

You’re asking for a new service or, more accurately, the reintroduction of a service that was rendered as not viable when Vantage was introduced.

 

[317 forever]

TfGM did introduce a route (X5) between Stockport and Sale, running partly via the M56/M60. It was reduced to Mon-Fri peak hours only a few years ago and then withdrawn completely. TfGM do not appear to be especially fond of longer routes, given the number that have gradually been withdrawn, particularly in southern Manchester, over the last 20 years. These will include soon (when phase 3 franchising goes live) the direct Altrincham-Warrington route (also currently numbered X5), which TfGM are slicing up because of apparent difficulties in reaching agreements with independent operators regarding cross-boundary services into "their patch".

I haven't yet seen what it supposed to replace it between Altrincham and Manchester Airport. This used to be covered by an Arriva route 18.

 

[D9006]

Not the same thing at all. Bury and Bolton to Manchester were commercially viable services when Bee Network took over.

You’re asking for a new service or, more accurately, the reintroduction of a service that was rendered as not viable when Vantage was introduced.

I think you have lost the ideal of the franchising network it is not for routes to make a profit but provide a service, I would guess the 615 doesn’t cover wear and tear on the tyres, as for a half hourly service on the 132 7 days a week, from my observation that will never make it pay. But I fully understand the reasoning behind it and welcome it

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think you have lost the ideal of the franchising network it is not for routes to make a profit but provide a service, I would guess the 615 doesn’t cover wear and tear on the tyres, as for a half hourly service on the 132 7 days a week, from my observation that will never make it pay. But I fully understand the reasoning behind it and welcome it

I know what the objective is, thanks. However, it is clear that the Bolton to Manchester, and the Bury to Manchester routes, were popular routes being able to sustain a strong commercially viable service. That's why they wouldn't be withdrawn because, quite simply, those are good money makers for TfGM.

Now TfGM is obviously looking at how they can improve the network of services, such as the introduction of enhanced evening services etc. This is part of their objective in providing greater service provision than was provided in the past. They believe that the 132 is worthy of an enhancement - perhaps their figures/projections justify that move. However, they can't simply bankroll every single service enhancement and "nice to have". Budgets have to be watched, and the benefits weighed up against the cost, as evidenced by the fact that the 615 is done on a marginal cost basis.

Now let's not forget - your original point was proposing the restoration of the 32 from Wigan to Manchester because the trains are unreliable. Well, that's not a reason (as others said - fix the train service). Most of the 32's historic traffic has now been lost to the Vantage routes in any case.

 

[D9006]

I know what the objective is, thanks. However, it is clear that the Bolton to Manchester, and the Bury to Manchester routes, were popular routes being able to sustain a strong commercially viable service. That's why they wouldn't be withdrawn because, quite simply, those are good money makers for TfGM.

Now TfGM is obviously looking at how they can improve the network of services, such as the introduction of enhanced evening services etc. This is part of their objective in providing greater service provision than was provided in the past. They believe that the 132 is worthy of an enhancement - perhaps their figures/projections justify that move. However, they can't simply bankroll every single service enhancement and "nice to have". Budgets have to be watched, and the benefits weighed up against the cost, as evidenced by the fact that the 615 is done on a marginal cost basis.

Now let's not forget - your original point was proposing the restoration of the 32 from Wigan to Manchester because the trains are unreliable. Well, that's not a reason (as others said - fix the train service). Most of the 32's historic traffic has now been lost to the Vantage routes in any case.

We will agree to disagree and end this topic about what’s best for residents along the old 32 route(not just Wigan). Your local knowledge on this far outweighs mine .

 

[daodao]

I haven't yet seen what it supposed to replace it between Altrincham and Manchester Airport. This used to be covered by an Arriva route 18.

TfGM are resurrecting routes 287 (Altrincham-Bowdon Vale) and 288 (Altrincham-Hale Barns-Airport) when franchising phase 3 goes live.

 

[317 forever]

TfGM are resurrecting routes 287 (Altrincham-Bowdon Vale) and 288 (Altrincham-Hale Barns-Airport) when franchising phase 3 goes live.

So, it must be an extension of current route 287 and a replacement for route 284.

 

[daodao]

So, it must be an extension of current route 287 and a replacement for route 284.

There is no current route 287 as it was subsumed into route X5, but it is going to be resurrected. Route 284, which runs via Hale Village and Warburton Green, will be unchanged. Replacement route 288 will also be resurrected, running via Hale Road, as it did previously when it was created as a replacement for the section of route 18 that Arriva abandoned some years ago.

 

[317 forever]

There is no current route 287 as it was subsumed into route X5, but it is going to be resurrected. Route 284, which runs via Hale Village and Warburton Green, will be unchanged. Replacement route 288 will also be resurrected, running via Hale Road, as it did previously when it was created as a replacement for the section of route 18 that Arriva abandoned some years ago.

OK thanks. Sorry I hadn't kept up with developments on some of the local routes there.

I was due to come to the area today but postponed it due to Storm Bert. I want to ride some post-Little Gem operations prior to franchising in January.

 

[Simon75]

Would a Stockport to Oldham service be viable?

 

[johncrossley]

Would a Stockport to Oldham service be viable?

This is franchising so anything can be "viable". The more pertinent question is "is it value for money?"

What route and stopping places do you propose?

 

[Park47515]

This is franchising so anything can be "viable". The more pertinent question is "is it value for money?"

What route and stopping places do you propose?

Easiest way to do it would be to link the 409 and 330. But I suspect that's not what the OP meant.

Again, there has to be some merit to a 400/401 express like in the old days.

 

[Shauny]

Does anybody know when the timetables will be published? Thanks

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Would a Stockport to Oldham service be viable?

Depends why you might think it is?

This is franchising so anything can be "viable". The more pertinent question is "is it value for money?"

Quite. People can pluck out any number of possible routes, whether it's the reintroduction of a Wigan to Manchester service cos the trains are a bit crap, or picking two arbitrary points.

The fact is that there aren't unlimited funds so they will have to be selective in what can or can't be done.

Easiest way to do it would be to link the 409 and 330. But I suspect that's not what the OP meant.

Again, there has to be some merit to a 400/401 express like in the old days.

Some merit though if it wasn't enough to run commercially X years ago, there's a question as to how much demand there will be now. That said, it is perhaps a link without a clear parallel public transport service (i.e. train or tram) so might be worth an exploration?

 

[Park47515]

Depends why you might think it is?

Quite. People can pluck out any number of possible routes, whether it's the reintroduction of a Wigan to Manchester service cos the trains are a bit crap, or picking two arbitrary points.

The fact is that there aren't unlimited funds so they will have to be selective in what can or can't be done.

Some merit though if it wasn't enough to run commercially X years ago, there's a question as to how much demand there will be now. That said, it is perhaps a link without a clear parallel public transport service (i.e. train or tram) so might be worth an exploration?

Tfgm would very potentially different expectations of profit/loss than First would have had.

Having said that, even at an hourly service, it would be a significant investment from scratch.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Tfgm would very potentially different expectations of profit/loss than First would have had

Perhaps I should’ve explained better. Not saying that it now needs to have revenue greater than costs.

However, if it wasn’t taking enough passengers for First years ago, and the link has been missing for several years, what residual demand is now left?

 

[M60lad]

Regarding linking Oldham and Stockport the only viable route that I can think of is running via 409 route to Ashton then running via Guide Bridge, Denton and then direct to Stockport via Stockport Road which can be quicker than going 330 route via Dukinfield and Hyde.

Only other quick route would be running via M60 for all or part of the journey.

 

[Tim33160]

Does anybody know when the timetables will be published? Thanks

In the main, there will be no change to times and routes on 5th January 2025 - what you have this week will be same then.
The only changes will be to the "new" routes around Altrincham 279/280, 287, 288 and a mysterious "289" quoted in Warrington's own buses info for the X5 https://www.warringtonsownbuses.co.uk/changes-bus-services-warrington-lymm-and-altrincham-cat5-and-x5

Judging by the current TfGM / Bee Network working practices, the timetables for these services could be published anytime - some recent ones have been the Thursday before a Sunday change!

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure where to put this but for anyone that uses it for some reason BusTimes isn't tracking any BeeNetwork services at the moment

 

[Andyh82]

Not to sure where to put this but for anyone that uses it for some reason BusTimes isn't tracking any BeeNetwork services at the moment

If you drag the map around, you’ll see nothing is tracking anywhere except Stagecoach, so it’s presumably a Ticketer issue

 

[mayneway]

Does anybody know when the timetables will be published? Thanks

In the short nothing will change regarding existing services as they will run exactly how they are now commercially.
Virtually all our services in Tranche 2 are still running to Go North West running times - there will however be big changes in January to improve things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

Only other quick route would be running via M60 for all or part of the journey

They will shy away from running services on motorways. Look at Hulleys and the 257.
The X5 has also been mentioned above and I drove it many times with full standing loads leaving Stockport, infact our scheduler at the time couldn’t understand why it was tendered and not commercial - simple answer was that it was completely unreliable given how often the motorway is snarled up.

 

[mangad]

The word "orbital" features a LOT in the Greater Manchester Bus Strategy document, which should be your number one source of information on what may happen. Because that's the document that TfGM will be working to.

Some key quotes from it:

By 2027 - New orbital bus priority measures delivered between Bury and Rochdale, Ashton and Stockport, Wigan and Bolton and Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton to improve bus speed and reliability.

As part of the network planning guidelines:

• Provide a minimum frequency of 5 buses per hour on Monday to Saturday daytimes on key radial and orbital routes.
• Provide direct, orbital connections between district centres.

Of course, there is the option for express routes. It's in the strategy document:

We will also explore: Opportunities for new express, limited stop bus routes to support medium to long distance journeys on corridors where rail or Metrolink would not be feasible or affordable.

and

We will also explore: Using named services to highlight different types of service (e.g. limited stop) strengthen pride in bus services and encourage more people to recognise and use them. Witch Way branding for route X43 between Burnley and Manchester and the historic Trans-Lancs Express name, used on a service between Bolton and Stockport, have been used successfully to market bus travel (particularly express services) to new users.

Let us also be very blunt and clear. Things take time. Some of this is a long term job. Many of the goals in the strategy document are targeting 2030. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The word "orbital" features a LOT in the Greater Manchester Bus Strategy document, which should be your number one source of information on what may happen. Because that's the document that TfGM will be working to.

It does refer to orbital in a number of ways. Upping routes to every 12 mins might be a pointer to routes like the 23 from Stockport that perform inter-urban links, or the 53 to link communities together.

Oldham to Stockport might be one area where they could look but it won't be any time soon as you say.