BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[jon0844]

There wasn't much time, given you could see the train leaving soon after. Okay, another possible edit - but I bet she'd have run half way down the train to board and held things up even more.

That and a 390 presumably taking a while to open/close doors, so with the doors already shut just reopening and closing them again would have definitely caused a delay.

 

[Ferret]

175001, we saw enough. He asked the guy to leave for not having a valid ticket. We then saw a slight altercation on the platform with him mentioning 'militant Train Managers'. The narrator even said that the TM did not want to risk a delay by calling the BTP! Well, rule number one - you don't need to call the BTP for every ticket irregularity in any case - if you can get details from the miscreant then that will suffice!

By throwing the chap off, what did he achieve? He got him off his train and washed his hands of the problem, and that's about it. How you can possibly think that's right I do not know!

 

[175001]

Ferret, I agree with what you are saying, but I didn't say it was the right thing to do. Anyway on with my rest day!

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Train has to stop. Get a possession on the other line, do the test, then get permission and the possession to be removed. Knock on effects throughout the line through all subsequent services both north and south being delayed as you then get fasts backed up behind slows or semi fasts.

I got the impression from the programme that the train itself was delayed an hour but I might have misheard it. Certainly shouldn't take an hour for a single train, I've had freights with hot axle alarms get on the move much quicker than that! Taking and giving up a line blockage of the adjacent line should only be a matter of a minute or so unless the intention is to run a load of trains before granting the block.

Enjoyed the programme though, I too was a little disappointed that a possible theft and/or fare evasion was dismissed so easily, but its difficult to make an informed judgement about the circumstances as editing can play a big part. Fare evasion is always a tricky one because on one hand people shouldn't be allowed to "get away with it", but objectively the potential financial penalty for collecting what can amount to a small fare is difficult to justify given there are few hundred other people who are going to inconvienced if BTP are not immediately available.

 

[Monty]

Do you not see that throwing somebody off in those circumstances is NOT conflict avoidance, and sooner or later will lead to precisely the opposite?!

I think it's a judgement call to be honest, I have no reservations in de-training passengers who have behaved inappropriately. So long as I am confident the situation will not deteriorate further, otherwise as you said it's best to leave well alone and call the police further down the line. As a guard on duty in charge of a train only you can make that call and I would say it's unfair for anyone else to presume what the best course of action is in that particular situation.

Your right in saying that ejecting passengers can lead to conflict, but how you go about it makes a big difference, the TM remained polite and actually made it sound like be was doing the passenger a favour considering the other options he had available to him.

 

[Clip]

Its just been a method of work and a local instruction for years at these stations, don't ask me why, I've only been based here 4 years.

I think one of the reasons would be the curvature of the stations they leave from. IIRC GNER still use flags on some if not all platforms they despatch from at the Cross

 

[jon0844]

My wife thought it odd that he wasn't met by police (even if she wouldn't appreciate the impact on the railway for having held things up). I guess she was of the opinion that a crime had been committed and it was strange to let them off - and send out the wrong message. But she's not British and is amazed at how many people get away with things!!

Even the American gateline/RPO said much the same about how people treated the police and how it wouldn't be tolerated in the US and I can say that she was 100% right on that!

I have no other complaints about the TM, although I expect he misread the job application form and thought he was going to be working for Virgin Atlantic!!

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

if you can get details from the miscreant then that will suffice!

Surely if you are of the bent to actively avoid paying for tickets then you will just lie? Unless I tell you my name is M Mouse of 10 Downing Street, London, you're unlikely to know if I'm telling the truth, and there is no legal requirement to carry identification.

 

[Clip]

Nowt like seeing a few thousand scallies playing up though after the football is there

 

[175001]

Would be one of the reasons for sure Clip! It works well at Man Vic, as the platforms at times can be overwhelmed, especially at Arena kicking out times, with the RA given once the guard and dispatcher can make sure that the train/platform interface is clear.

 

[jon0844]

I got the impression from the programme that the train itself was delayed an hour but I might have misheard it. Certainly shouldn't take an hour for a single train, I've had freights with hot axle alarms get on the move much quicker than that! Taking and giving up a line blockage of the adjacent line should only be a matter of a minute or so unless the intention is to run a load of trains before granting the block.

It did say an hour, but I wouldn't be surprised if this incident wasn't on a totally different day and unrelated to the problems the programme talked about after - so added the hour bit in to make it sound as it was the cause of problems. Who knows, it might have been far less in reality.

They filmed over a year, so I am sure a lot of things weren't all on a single day but adapted with clever editing and a few white lies.

I know I'm a cynical sod at times, but I have too much experience of these things.. and even the SRB appearance seems like a totally staged event and one that probably had SRB insisting on being shown in return for giving the company access to the trains/staff. And I bet the production company was probably against it, but managed to edit out the no-doubt cringeworthy bit we saw a highlight of at the start. Hopefully they argued that the BBC forced them to cut it, or they had too much other good stuff that it wouldn't fit - but kept in the bit at the beginning just to keep a promise....

Sounds far-fetched? Maybe my imagination running wild but I'm actually very certain that it would have been something like this.. it was clear from what Richard Branson said that he'd never spoken on a PA before so how coincidental that it was when being filmed.

[Actually, perhaps he was on the train to tell passengers to sign the petition to keep Virgin running the WCML franchise and the BBC though 'woah, can't have that in the programme' and forced it to be cut?]

 

[Ferret]

Monty, I have to give him credit for being relatively polite, although the talk about militant TMs was a little silly. It seemed to me the bloke who he was throwing off was maybe having a go on the platform, and the talk of the militant TMs was in response to this.

G-P-O, try giving false details and see where it gets you

 

[Monty]

Monty, I have to give him credit for being relatively polite, although the talk about militant TMs was a little silly. It seemed to me the bloke who he was throwing off was maybe having a go on the platform, and the talk of the militant TMs was in response to this.

G-P-O, try giving false details and see where it gets you

Yes, I thought the talk about Militant TMs was a bit silly too. I bet he is popular at his depot after that episode was broadcast! I'd like to hope the idea of being on TV went to his head a little and he said a few things he might normally think twice about.

 

[Clip]

We cannot judge, as the full story wasn't told on the documentary. Like he said, some Guards/TM's will do ape at things like that, I don't.

Like the TM, I give passengers time to look for tickets, look for railcards, I also have a stern side if I know a passenger is having me on. Its discretion. I have my own method of working trains, you have a method of work of working trains. We're all not the same in the role. You work your train as you see fit, and i'll work mine as I see fit. :roll:

But the bloke had been accused of stealing someone elses ticket - with witnesses!! whether or not he had another ticket he shouldve been done for theft first and foremost and as we didnt see him check the blokes next to him ticket then how can we know it wasnt his.

Give people time for their railcard but not if they have been accused of stealing something.

If I knew one of my TMs or grade was letting them get away with that then they would have a nice cp of tea with their manager

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

G-P-O, try giving false details and see where it gets you

I've no intention of giving false details, but I'd like to know how you think you could be certain I was lying? Not all criminals fall into the knuckle dragging stereotype and are actually quite clever. I don't believe all that "you just know" thing either, as its unlikely you'll find out if someone has had you over. It reminds me of a quote, forgive me for not getting it spot on, I think its from Ashes to Ashes:

Drake: "But he lied to me"
Hunt: "He's a criminal, they do that you know"

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, less than 60 passengers used it...

Tbf the train was arranged quite late in the day (metaphorically speaking) and the return working (northbound) was not until the Sunday (the day after the match IIRC), was from a different station (St Pancras) and didn't exactly have a big time saving on the bus replacement journey.

 

[charlee]

The west coast main lime must be mu favourite episode so far.


Really hope this is picked up for a second series.

 

[Harbon 1]

Just watched it, I wish they would mention more places other than Manchester and Euston. Obviously it was only an hour but last I heard, Glasgow is on the WCML? Guess that'll be on the Scotland show...

Thought the TM was a nice enough guy, nothing wrong with getting excited about something out of the ordinary, like a fire drill at school, gets you out of the routine for a while.

I thought a while back in the fares forum or on the news that there was a woman that was left behind at a station because she didn't have a railcard. Same with the guy who stole the ticket, left behind, he'd still have to buy a ticket to go any further.

That ginger guy at the end, what a moron! I shouted words that are not repeatable on here at my tele when he said that.

'Get tamperin' son'

Guy in the booth at Manchester, what a legend!

All in all, not a bad episode, but they should have picked a location rather than a 400 mile long railway to squeeze into an hour.

 

[Teaboy1]

Totally agree, what a superb programme ! Full of characters ... yes the guy in the booth (nice to be important .... important to be nice !! ah bless !!) , the bare-foot signalman, Euston platform Queen aka Ruby Wax?? ...... !! All stars for a day !
Yes thanks BBC, loved it !!

 

[rebmcr]

'Get tamperin' son'

Tamping

 

[Ferret]

I've no intention of giving false details, but I'd like to know how you think you could be certain I was lying? Not all criminals fall into the knuckle dragging stereotype and are actually quite clever. I don't believe all that "you just know" thing either, as its unlikely you'll find out if someone has had you over. It reminds me of a quote, forgive me for not getting it spot on, I think its from Ashes to Ashes:

Drake: "But he lied to me"
Hunt: "He's a criminal, they do that you know"

Sometimes you do just know that somebody is lying about the address given. Body language gives them away.

PS, I'm sure you wouldn't ever need to give me your details anyway
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Totally agree, what a superb programme ! Full of characters ... yes the guy in the booth (nice to be important .... important to be nice !! ah bless !!)

Apparently he works on the ELR...? He came across really well I have to say.

 

[the sniper]

Tamping

I'm pretty sure he knew what it was.

 

[Marklund]

The Virgin element of the programme seemed to me to be a bit stage managed.

 

[SS4]

The Virgin element of the programme seemed to me to be a bit stage managed.

For a company with a reputation for being slick and largely image dependent this does not surprise me. Perhaps they had a limited time to film on VT's definition of off-peak

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The Virgin element of the programme seemed to me to be a bit stage managed.

Careful - don't ridicule Virgin or the Immaculate Franchise - you may upset a lot of people.

 

[Dave1987]

I agree it was an excellent episode. It was stage managed a bit but it did show that Virgin are not immune to train failures and massive delays but I did like how friendly their staff were. I don't know whether that was just for the cameras or not. I thought it was a well balanced episode though.

The bloke at Euston making the comment "I blame the unions, make the lazy f*****s work at night", is clearly naive.

 

[bronzeonion]

Train has to stop. Get a possession on the other line, do the test, then get permission and the possession to be removed. Knock on effects throughout the line through all subsequent services both north and south being delayed as you then get fasts backed up behind slows or semi fasts.

Don't really know much about signalling and stuff but couldn't they just had the signal before the section they were alongside turned to red and just have trains waiting rather than a posession?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Yeah I just watched it now. Another good episode I thought. I would and indeed have dealt with the stolen ticket issue differently myself but we all work our trains differently and I think on balance the TM made the right choice. It is difficult to assess the whole situation without all the details.

Can't believe the bloke at Euston who called us all lazy f*****s. Clearly doesn't travel often does he? Otherwise he would be probably aware that engineering work tends to happen overnight and at weekends and whenever else it can be done. Nothing to do with being lazy. It's to do with timing and impact. Blaming the unions is just hilarious!

 

[Marklund]

Don't really know much about signalling and stuff but couldn't they just had the signal before the section they were alongside turned to red and just have trains waiting rather than a posession?

That's effectively what happens. It's not a possession as in a T3 for engineering work.

 

[ushawk]

Can't believe the bloke at Euston who called us all lazy f*****s. Clearly doesn't travel often does he? Otherwise he would be probably aware that engineering work tends to happen overnight and at weekends and whenever else it can be done. Nothing to do with being lazy. It's to do with timing and impact. Blaming the unions is just hilarious!

Id love to see him try to replace the whole of the junction at Crewe over a night, come the next morning there would be nothing to run a train on !!

Just a stupid idiot who clearly cant think !!

Thought last nights program was one of the better ones myself, if anything its improving week after week !!