BBC Documentary 'The Railways'

[MattRobinson]

Excited about having to do a rotation test? Really?!

If it's the first time that you have to do a test like that, surely it's allowable to be a little excited to do something out of the ordinary? I accept your points about the ticket, but this is something out of the ordinary that it's surely no problem to be a little interested in?

 

[Roverman]

If someone has a company credit card to pay for the tickets I think they are 'important' enough to choose to go 1st Class.

 

[Starmill]

Next time I'm at MAN I'm finding that information fellah and shaking his hand.

This is interesting, as I would recognise almost all of the army of First and Northern staff at Piccadilly, but I don't think I have ever seen him.

You don't see that many NR staff there tbh, unless they are doing mobility assistance or BTP are about.

That said, I have never been to that little information pod in all of two years using Piccadilly!

 

[TDK]

Enjoyable episode, but that Virgin TM is a disgrace to the grade.

1. Excited about having to do a rotation test? Really?!

2. You catch a bloke stealing a ticket AND using an invalid one of his own?! And you just let him get off at Crewe?! What an arse.

Good cost analysis and he saved the company a lot of money in delay costs by doing it that way, I thought the TM's customer service was good and at least he was a happy sort of guy unlike the run of the mill TM's who don't give a **** about their companies costs, sit in the rear cab either reading or train spotting or just being downright rude to passengers. And don't say there aint none because I have worked with ones like that on many occasions and it is those types that are a disgrace to the grade. He was also very helpful to the driver bearing in mind that he was asked to confirm the rotation test where in fact the role of the guard is a fraction of the responsibility it used to be. Good on him I say I thought he was a competent member of his team and carried out his duties well!

 

[Ferret]

TDK, what if the bloke refuses to get off at Crewe? Delays the train, thereby incurring costs to the TOC. That really was not clever, and what about the person on the train behind who had to deal with a peed off faredodger and had no TV cameras as back-up? To anybody who wants to be a TM out there, think long and hard before you do what this TM did, however genuine a person he seemed to be (agreed on that point btw).

 

[the sniper]

Enjoyable episode, but that Virgin TM is a disgrace to the grade.

1. Excited about having to do a rotation test? Really?!

You're being harsh on this, IMO. I don't know if I'd use 'excited' to describe it, but I do personally enjoy doing stuff that isn't the everyday norm. How rare is it for most Guard's to even have to go lineside nowadays! I can fully appreciate that he might have been 'excited' by doing something like that for the first time, rather then just another day of riding around and checking tickets...

Personally I enjoy being a Guard the most when things go tits up, as that is when things get interesting!

2. You catch a bloke stealing a ticket AND using an invalid one of his own?! And you just let him get off at Crewe?! What an arse.

I do though completely agree with you on this. I'm certainly no ticket monster, but absolutely no discretion should have been shown to that guy. I didn't get a clear understanding of what had gone on, but it had to be theft or fraud by false representation. At the very least it was a byelaw offence! I'm guessing it was first stop Crewe and Crewe has a BTP station. If I was a decent way out from Crewe when I found that lad I'd have certainly called BTP.

Now, in the chaps defence, we don't have all the facts. The voice over said something like 'he couldn't prove it so let him off'. Well, if the incident was portrayed accurately, that isn't true, but who knows what was lost in editing. Maybe the Businessman in First who had his ticket taken didn't want to give a statement to the Police regarding the theft/fraud due to embarrassment and asked the TM not to involve them? Now I'd have called them anyway and had the lad done just for the byelaw/RRA 1889 offence, but if the TM didn't involve BTP for the Businessmen's sake, I suppose I can understand.

 

[Starmill]

You're being harsh on this, IMO. I don't know if I'd use 'excited' to describe it, but I do personally enjoy doing stuff that isn't the everyday norm. How rare is it for most Guard's to even have to go lineside nowadays! I can fully appreciate that he might have been 'excited' by doing something like that for the first time, rather then just another day of riding around and checking tickets...

Personally I enjoy being a Guard the most when things go tits up, as that is when things get interesting!

Yeah! I mean, over-enthusiasm is better than under-enthusiasm surely? And I get a lot of the latter round here

 

[Ferret]

Sniper, well, maybe I am being harsh about the rotation test - I was just a little taken aback by his excitement, about what is just our job if it comes to it.

As for the ticket, regardless of what the FC passenger says about the stolen ticket, it's still an offence to be using an invalid one that you haven't stolen. Fine - if the FC passenger does not want to get involved then respect that - he's your customer. But don't just throw the offender off and leave him to the next TM, that's not good enough.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

Good cost analysis and he saved the company a lot of money in delay costs by doing it that way

Until the next time it happens

 

[dmacw]

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

 

[Muzer]

Sniper, well, maybe I am being harsh about the rotation test - I was just a little taken aback by his excitement, about what is just our job if it comes to it.

As for the ticket, regardless of what the FC passenger says about the stolen ticket, it's still an offence to be using an invalid one that you haven't stolen. Fine - if the FC passenger does not want to get involved then respect that - he's your customer. But don't just throw the offender off and leave him to the next TM, that's not good enough.

Out of interest, speaking here as someone completely not in the know, what IS good enough, then? The only alternative I can think of offhand that isn't going to rack up delay minutes would be detaining the passenger until the train terminates and then taking him personally to BTP/etc., which sounds a little dodgy to me - where would you keep him, for one?

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

Was she RPI? She looked to me like the equivalent of gateline staff, without the gateline

 

[Ferret]

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

Platform staff get a SCWID card (safety critical work ID) - I'd see it as six and two threes, but you can never have enough of a knowlege range if you want to move up to TM etc.

Moving onto the positives, although I've worked with Eoin (before he was in the management grades) and have a lot of time for him, I felt he came across well, as did the RPIs. On the whole, this episode did portray the railways in a positive light - which naturally I'm pleased about!!!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sniper, well, maybe I am being harsh about the rotation test - I was just a little taken aback by his excitement, about what is just our job if it comes to it.

As for the ticket, regardless of what the FC passenger says about the stolen ticket, it's still an offence to be using an invalid one that you haven't stolen. Fine - if the FC passenger does not want to get involved then respect that - he's your customer. But don't just throw the offender off and leave him to the next TM, that's not good enough.

While i agree in principle i am unsure how to comment due to editing. As we know from the first episode a lot of things came out of context with chunks missed out... This could possibly be the case here. Just saying, we may not have all the facts.

 

[Ferret]

Out of interest, speaking here as someone completely not in the know, what IS good enough, then?

Originally, I'm sure that TM said he was right away from Stockport-Euston. Well, the obvious answer is to let the bloke travel to Euston, and have the Police meet him there. Without giving too much away, you never try to detrain somebody over a ticket issue if you can help it - you have one faredodger versus three hundred honest fully paid up customers/passengers. Why should the three hundred suffer a potential delay when you can deal with the one rogue at your destination? Also, why put yourself at risk when you are going head to head with somebody who doesn't want to pay his fare, and you're initiating a conflict by throwing him off? Always think about the endgame

 

[the sniper]

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

RPI on a fixed term contract into a permanent job? And personally I'd say I'd rather be in a safety critical position than an RPIs shoes when it comes to job cutting time...

Out of interest, speaking here as someone completely not in the know, what IS good enough, then? The only alternative I can think of offhand that isn't going to rack up delay minutes would be detaining the passenger until the train terminates and then taking him personally to BTP/etc., which sounds a little dodgy to me - where would you keep him, for one?

Call the BTP as early as possible before arrival at Crewe. They can remove the person on arrival. This is particularly doable at Crewe as there is a BTP station there and was more necessary than your usual TI due to the element of Theft/Fraud.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Originally, I'm sure that TM said he was right away from Stockport-Euston. Well, the obvious answer is to let the bloke travel to Euston, and have the Police meet him there. Without giving too much away, you never try to detrain somebody over a ticket issue if you can help it - you have one faredodger versus three hundred honest fully paid up customers/passengers. Why should the three hundred suffer a potential delay when you can deal with the one rogue at your destination? Also, why put yourself at risk when you are going head to head with somebody who doesn't want to pay his fare, and you're initiating a conflict by throwing him off? Always think about the endgame

If i was a TM and i never will be as i am an engineer (well who knows....) this is what i would have done, by stealth and then get him arrested.

 

[Ferret]

While i agree in principle i am unsure how to comment due to editing. As we know from the first episode a lot of things came out of context with chunks missed out... This could possibly be the case here. Just saying, we may not have all the facts.

I can't agree I'm afraid, as much as I'd like to. What he should do is attempt to get name and address details and not throw the bloke off. And then, he bragged about how he was a good TM because he'd not made a big deal of it. I was watching that episode with a fellow TM, and her partner who is a driver, and all three of us were really unimpressed. He was lucky - if he does the same in a similar situation, he risks either an assault or a delay; he just got lucky this time - maybe *because* anything that happened was being recorded by TV cameras. To those of you who are applying for Train Manager and Senior Conductor with another long distance TOC right now, should you be successful please don't deal with similar issues like that!

 

[IanD]

So out of time out of date it really doesnt matter does it when the point is perfectly understandable.

The only perfectly acceptable ticket she couldve had would be an anytime return and given that she got pulled up on it being 12 hours too late I think its fair to say that she didnt.

She didn't get pulled up, she just asked where the 636 train was as it wasn't displayed on the boards. The way the rail staff looked at the ticket suggested it may have been an Advance but this wasn't actually stated.

 

[jon0844]

I expect that Virgin looking good was probably a condition of giving access to the trains. And naturally I expect Virgin chose the services and staff to be featured, hence a cheeky visit by SRB.

And let's not forget that Virgin needs to keep the BBC sweet given how many members of staff are using the trains every day from London to Media City.

I noted the programme didn't make it absolutely clear that even if Virgin lost the route, many members of staff had nothing to fear besides a change of uniform. I am sure most viewers would think that all the staff would lose their jobs and of course those high speed trains would go too...

 

[Clip]

She didn't get pulled up, she just asked where the 636 train was as it wasn't displayed on the boards. The way the rail staff looked at the ticket suggested it may have been an Advance but this wasn't actually stated.

I thought the RPI asked to see her ticket and then noticed the time was wrong.. But if it was an Off Peak then she wouldve been told to wait for the next off peak service after 1900 rather than be put on the train so I think its fair to say that it had to have been an advance purchase. And if it was an anytime ticket then there would not have been any need for her to ask the TM to let her on.

 

[rebmcr]

Originally, I'm sure that TM said he was right away from Stockport-Euston. Well, the obvious answer is to let the bloke travel to Euston, and have the Police meet him there. Without giving too much away, you never try to detrain somebody over a ticket issue if you can help it - you have one faredodger versus three hundred honest fully paid up customers/passengers. Why should the three hundred suffer a potential delay when you can deal with the one rogue at your destination? Also, why put yourself at risk when you are going head to head with somebody who doesn't want to pay his fare, and you're initiating a conflict by throwing him off? Always think about the endgame

Well, due to editing, we can't be sure that the peak MAN-SPT-EUS was the same service as the faredodge. The TV crew were probably zipping up and down all day long.

Additionally, I would bet large sums of money that Sir Branson himself would have handpicked the train manager for the benefit of the cameras, with specific instructions to keep everything running 100% smoothly — at all costs.

 

[EM2]

While i agree in principle i am unsure how to comment due to editing. As we know from the first episode a lot of things came out of context with chunks missed out... This could possibly be the case here. Just saying, we may not have all the facts.

As I think I said after Ep.1 when one of my colleagues was being interviewed, the answer he gave was not to the question that appeared to be asked!

 

[Muzer]

Well, due to editing, we can't be sure that the peak MAN-SPT-EUS was the same service as the faredodge. The TV crew were probably zipping up and down all day long.

Additionally, I would bet large sums of money that Sir Branson himself would have handpicked the train manager for the benefit of the cameras, with specific instructions to keep everything running 100% smoothly — at all costs.

I dunno, there seem to be a *lot* of very jolly TMs on Virgin. Not that I've been on them too much, but whenever I do, there's often a joke or two over the PA

 

[33011]

Sniper, well, maybe I am being harsh about the rotation test - I was just a little taken aback by his excitement, about what is just our job if it comes to it.

As for the ticket, regardless of what the FC passenger says about the stolen ticket, it's still an offence to be using an invalid one that you haven't stolen. Fine - if the FC passenger does not want to get involved then respect that - he's your customer. But don't just throw the offender off and leave him to the next TM, that's not good enough.

Perhaps he phoned BTP and had pager messages sent out on departing Crewe off camara so he did not delay his train any further.

 

[IanD]

I thought the RPI asked to see her ticket and then noticed the time was wrong.. But if it was an Off Peak then she wouldve been told to wait for the next off peak service after 1900 rather than be put on the train so I think its fair to say that it had to have been an advance purchase. And if it was an anytime ticket then there would not have been any need for her to ask the TM to let her on.

Definitely wasn't pulled up. However, if she had a reservation she may have been one of the people who think that once you have reserved a seat you must use that train (plenty of them around) as she didn't seem that clued up about the workings of the railway. Also, we've all heard stories where "the man on the platform says..." has not been believed by the train manager so maybe the "woman on the platform" wanted to give the customer some extra re-assurance (or just wanted to have a laugh with her colleagues on camera ).

 

[33011]

RPI to Platform Dispatch and that woman reckoned it was a promotion? Surely a drop in pay?

unless she was gateline staff not RPI.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't agree I'm afraid, as much as I'd like to. What he should do is attempt to get name and address details and not throw the bloke off. And then, he bragged about how he was a good TM because he'd not made a big deal of it. I was watching that episode with a fellow TM, and her partner who is a driver, and all three of us were really unimpressed. He was lucky - if he does the same in a similar situation, he risks either an assault or a delay; he just got lucky this time - maybe *because* anything that happened was being recorded by TV cameras. To those of you who are applying for Train Manager and Senior Conductor with another long distance TOC right now, should you be successful please don't deal with similar issues like that!

He did ask for ID.The TM has had a lot of critisism on here this and you are correct but haven't we all done something and later looked back and thought I could've handled that better?

 

[TDK]

TDK, what if the bloke refuses to get off at Crewe? Delays the train, thereby incurring costs to the TOC.

He had 2 choices I would say, kick him off at Crewe for not having a valid ticket (He didn't have enough evidence for theft) or call the BTP to either meet the train at Crewe or Euston. Weighing it up logically calling the BTP (Be There Possibly) would have delayed the train, BTP at Euston would have been better option however this could also have delayed the return trip and if the BTP had not been at Euston the guy gets his journey for nowt. Delays are up to £170 per minute and this would have been down to VT. If the guy refuses to get off at Crewe carry on and get the BTP to meet you at Euston would have been a viable option I suppose however I have seen trains delayed for these sort of incidents and have cost the TOC a lot of money.

 

[OuterDistant]

Wow, I had no idea they were still using Absolute Block in the Stockport area!

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with Ferret on the issue of the fare dodger. The message I got was that if you deliberately don't have a valid ticket, you can blag it on VT. And if you have what was presumably a cheap AP and turn up 12 hours late for a more expensive service, it doesn't matter.

When the TM said how great it was that he merely let the passenger off at Crewe, it actually made me quite angry. It doesn't send a great message to fare-paying customers, who are actually paying a lot of money to subsidise these freeloaders getting their great service.

 

[Clip]

Definitely wasn't pulled up. However, if she had a reservation she may have been one of the people who think that once you have reserved a seat you must use that train (plenty of them around) as she didn't seem that clued up about the workings of the railway. Also, we've all heard stories where "the man on the platform says..." has not been believed by the train manager so maybe the "woman on the platform" wanted to give the customer some extra re-assurance (or just wanted to have a laugh with her colleagues on camera ).

Ill have to watch it again on iPlayer then.
But the point still stands, if she had any other ticket other than one that required a compulsory seat reservation, i.e. an AP ticket then the TM would not have acted in such a way that she did, nor by asking the TM that as she had muddled up when she was to travel if she could go on that service. We all know RPIs and they just dont normally do such a thing as, with the posts above about the alleged stolen ticket, it sets a precedent that VT will aloow you to do anything which is patently not true.