Baroness Thatcher has died

[soil]

There are lots of people living in poverty in this country, not just in former industrial areas. To me that is wrong and is a disgrace. after all we live in a rich country. However we live in the I'm all right jack society so you are quite right in suggesting people dont do much to help their fellow man.

Poverty is inevitable, since people have the free will to **** their money away on drugs, booze, slot machines, consumer goods, and so on.

 

[wintonian]

#nowthatchersdead

#nowthatchersdead


Oh dear!

 

[swj99]

I was born after Thatcher's term in office and whilst I do understand a lot of the anger as I have studied it in History and have learnt a lot about her in Politics at A-Level and now University level, ......................................... yet she her death is still celebrated as if she'd died in office. ................. Its all hate this, can't say that, don't do this, conform to our views or be demonised.

I'm split on a lot of issues (I'm Libertarian) but I'm simply put off even wanting to listen to left wing ideals when a decent proportion of lefties act like children.

I can understand that. My dad used to describe it as 'putting yourself in the wrong'.
The thing here is, it isn't just the death of an ex prime minister. It's a situation that you could compare with an iceberg, in that there is as much if not more that you can't see because it's below the surface.
There's definitely something quite different here. She was as loved by some as she was hated by others, and I mean some massive amounts of emotion on either side of that divide. I'm not for a second trying to justify anyone dancing on a grave, or partying in the street, and I can't imagine myself doing either of those things or feeling at all comfortable doing themn. But that's just me, and I know there are many, many people who do feel very strongly about her, one way or another, and good or bad, that's probably not going away anytime soon. After all, it's been simmering below the surface for over 30 years.

Until fairly recently, I was probably neutral about Margaret Thatcher. I despair of politics in this country, and have done for a long time. I did what I could, by voting, but I became disillusioned with the whole concept of government, and had come to the conclusion that the whole thing was a farce. Ironically, the night before Thatcher died, I was trying to find some information online about a place where one of my relatives used to work, when I happened upon a dissertation that an economics student had put on the internet, entitled, The Impact of Conflict and Political Change on Northern Industrial Towns, 1890 to 1990. It was an interesting read, although it took a while to get through it. But it filled in some gaps in my knowledge about what had happened in the north west after I moved south in the late 1980s.
It's mostly factual and it's @ https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=6a179ec8d625de09&id=6A179EC8D625DE09!629 if you fancied having a read.

Earlier this evening, I was reading through a similar thread to this one, on a car forum, and sadly it was showing signs of disintegrating into a handbagging session. However there was one post which had a link to an article on a blogging site called Another Angry Voice. This article is quite anti, and addresses many of the things that happened in this country during her term of office. If on the other hand and in the interests of a balanced argument if there is such a thing, you might want to read stuff that is singing her praises, and there are plenty of news articles about her, and her policies on the BBC website at the moment (impartial as ever )

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-is-dead.html

Coal mines keep closing now thanks to a lack of investment in previous decades, Thatcher seemingly took the decision that it would be easier and cheaper (in the short term) to close the pits and destroy communities, instead of invest in new technology to improve efficiency and make the industry profitable once more. There's plenty of coal out there that cannot feasibly be excavated now that collieries have closed - it would simply be too costly and difficult.

I'm of the school of thought which says it is better to subsidise industries and keep them in existence, than the alternative. The alternative in the case of the UK was whole communities as good as wiped out, and people's livelihoods destroyed forever. Thatcher's government encouraged people onto sickness benefit because it reduced the unemployment figures. My view is that the money would have been better spent on keeping those industries alive. All the time those industries remained, the people who worked in them were paying tax and national insurance, spending money in the national and local economy etc. Whereas when the work ended, the reverse was true, with millions more people having to claim benefits instead of paying into the system, which is a destructive cycle.
Thatcher's government removed the protection (trade tarrifs and subsidies etc) that had previously been provided to British industry, which had helped it to stave off foreign competition. The foreign competition still had protection, so it's not hard to see how tory policy at the time was like a death sentence to British industry at a time when there wasn't a level playing field (ie UK firms were competing against foreign ones who still had their own government subsidies when our own didn't). If other countries had removed protections they had provided to their own industries, then maybe the UK government policy would have been justified. The way Thatcher did it was probably one of the reasons why today there are foreign interests which own UK firms. It didn't have to be like this.

An interesting variant on this is that people shouldn't dislike her because they weren't alive under her tenure. It's a load of rubbish! We know full well what it's like to be paying through the nose because she sold off all our essential industry!........

I think you're absolutely right.

Didn't she bomb our chippy as well ? Oh wait, no, it was that other bloke.

If people want to live their lives consumed with an irrational hatred of something that happened 25 years ago, that's fine with me.

Meanwhile, the rest of the country has dealt with it and moved on.

I certainly wouldn't class what's currently happening as irrational. Looking beyond the few groups of people making a noise and opening champagne bottles in the street, whilst police dogs fight each other (this happened in Brixton BTW) I think that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think the people who were affected by the thatcher years have been able to move on, because events which happened back then shaped their lives forever.

Many of the people she screwed over are still being called scum by Cameron and his buddies. Not overtly of course but using a controlled press, just in this case the press is controlled by money

Cameron is slightly more subtle.
Or as Neil said in The Young Ones, "Out of one frying pan into another frying pan."

I am rather amused by the nicknames that some on the forum tend to give to certain national newspapers (based on an "intellectual play on words") whereas the more staid of the membership have no difficulty in using the correct names for these newspapers.

Yes, I buy The Daily Hitler, it’s nearly as soft as Co-op’s own brand toilet roll.

Odd community? she destroyed most of the industrial heartland for gods sake! destroyed thousands of lives and families of which some have never recovered.

That's a fair assessment of it. To be honest, thinking about the damage that was done to this country back then is extremely depressing. I find I have to keep switching off and thinking about something entirely different otherwise it gets too much. Anyway, I got to thinking, is there anyone here who interested enough, but doesn't know, or can't quite picture or relate to what some of the things that happened back then were really like ? If so, there are a few things on youtube that would probably give you a fairly good idea. There is archive footage and documentaries about the miners strike, just search miners strike, battle of orgreave colliery and see what comes up. Also, you may or may not remember Boys from the Blackstuff, about unemployment in Liverpool.

The serial was written by Liverpudlian playwright Alan Bleasdale, as a sequel to a television play, The Black Stuff. The British Film Institute described it as a "seminal drama series... a warm, humorous but ultimately tragic look at the way economics affect ordinary people... TV's most complete dramatic response to the Thatcher era and as a lament to the end of a male, working class British culture."

and another thing. Those odd communities was where i lived and grew up. Those people thrown the scrap heap were my family and friends of my family. Those people destroyed were good, hard working, decent, people.

This is why I say to anyone who thinks Thatcher did good things for this country, please listen to, and try to relate, to what this man has to say. There are countless others like him who are convinced that Thatcher's government did more harm than good, and having lived in the north myself during her term of office, I agree with him.

I was chatting to someone today and they said they wondered if Thatcher had used strikes as an excuse to do what she wanted to do anyway, ie close industries down, rather than confront the issue of closure head on right from the start.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Lets not forget how foreign coal was stock piled on mass so she could close down the pits with the least disruption to supplies possible.

Well you could hardly blame her given that she knew that the NUM were planning a strike!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ODD COMMUNITY??????????????? You are, frankly a fool.

Ivory towers come to mind! DarloRich you are spot on, young Tory boys have no idea what happened in the 1980's.

 

[4SRKT]

Ivo is attracting considerable opprobrium it seems.

 

[bnm]

Ivo is attracting considerable opprobrium it seems.

In my opinion, justifiably so. For the good of the country? The 3.6 million unemployed in the early/mid 1980s would disagree. Those families (like mine) who lost their home through negative equity would disagree. Those people impoverished and/or criminalised through inability to pay the Community Charge would disagree.

.......................................................................................................

And then there's this:

Recalling parliament to eulogise over a former prime minister? What a waste of time. And what of the cost? Will all the MPs and support staff be returning early at no cost to the taxpayer? I very much doubt it. At least there are some MPs who've spoken out against the recall. It's perfectly acceptable, when a former prime minister dies, for parliament to pay tribute. But an extra session at taxpayers expense is a bit much. Parliament wasn't recalled in Easter 2005 for the death of James Callaghan. It wasn't recalled after Edward Heath passed away a few days after it had retired for the summer recess in July 2005. Nor was it recalled after the death of Harold Macmillan on 29th December 1986. All the eulogising could've waited until a parliamentary session when MPs were due to return on Monday 15th April.

Oh, and none of those former prime ministers had a taxpayer funded ceremonial funeral either.

 

[4SRKT]

You should have seen the furious row his comments triggered on here last night......

 

[lynni]

I was a teen in the Thatcher years and so didn't really understand many of her policies.

Now I'm an adult,I see what a great lady (as opposed to a great politician!) she was-I'm mourning her death,NOT because I think she was a good PM,but because of what I think of her as a PERSON-I admired her strong personality and her belief in herself and her thoughts and actions-in many people's eyes,she did a lot very wrong,yes,but is that really any need to rejoice in someone's death?

 

[4SRKT]

I was a teen in the Thatcher years as well. Why do you think it's OK for teenagers not to understand politics? It's vital that they do so that venal politicians like Blair and Clegg/Cameron don't screw them over while they're busy being apathetic.

 

[jb]

Ivo is attracting considerable opprobrium it seems.

And for all the fury and all the essays, no-one has yet tackled his central point - that Thatcherism received a 50% approval rating in a credible newspaper poll.

This would seem to demonstrate that most peoples sympathy to the plight of the low paid does not extend to their wallets.

This is trivially true, yet it costs nothing at all to give a negative response to Thatcherism to a newspaper pollster, and half the people didn't do that either.

 

[lynni]

I was a teen in the Thatcher years as well. Why do you think it's OK for teenagers not to understand politics? It's vital that they do so that venal politicians like Blair and Clegg/Cameron don't screw them over while they're busy being apathetic.

I didn't say I thought it was ''ok for teenagers not to understand politics'' I was merely pointing out my age-(at that age I was 14),I was more interested in my friends and school work! At that age (back then anyway) we were niave and thought that politics were boring (well,the kids I went to school with,thought that) and complicated.It wasn't till I grew up-both mentally and physically that I started taking more interest in politics.I believe that nowadays teens are more ''clued up'' and streetwise than we were in the 70s,and will take more notice (and understand) of politics than we did.

Just my thoughts-and that's BEFORE I've had my first coffee!

 

[4SRKT]

I didn't say I thought it was ''ok for teenagers not to understand politics'' I was merely pointing out my age-(at that age I was 14),I was more interested in my friends and school work! At that age (back then anyway) we were niave and thought that politics were boring (well,the kids I went to school with,thought that) and complicated.It wasn't till I grew up-both mentally and physically that I started taking more interest in politics.I believe that nowadays teens are more ''clued up'' and streetwise than we were in the 70s,and will take more notice (and understand) of politics than we did.

Just my thoughts-and that's BEFORE I've had my first coffee!

interesting. As a parent of teenagers I would say today's youth are politically engaged with single issues such as the environment, bankers' bonuses or whatever, but have either no uunderstanding of or interest in the wider picture. This is quite the reverse of the 80s. Possibly because politics has become pretty bland since then, and also I guess because politicians are too often shownn up to be grasping individuals with no spine. Whatever the reason, detachment from politics is extremely dangerous for any group in society

Shurely you weren't 14 for the whole 1980s??

Anyway, enjoy your coffee.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And for all the fury and all the essays, no-one has yet tackled his central point - that Thatcherism received a 50% approval rating in a credible newspaper poll.



This is trivially true, yet it costs nothing at all to give a negative response to Thatcherism to a newspaper pollster, and half the people didn't do that either.

Have you read the whole thread (I don't blame you if you haven't BTW!)? His 'central point' was thst 'Lady T' should be regarded as some kind of saint and that the many losers should simply be happy about their fate because some others get better off. The newspaper thing came in later.

Perhaps he will come on here later to insult his heroine's victims again. Perhaps, but I doubt it somehow. If he dud though it would be an excellent opportunity for him to use the "I'm from a poor background" line again to justify poor taste comments towards the poor in the old industrial areas.

 

[Johnuk123]

Coalfields in Yorkshire were never the "Industrial Heartland" of this country.

The West Midlands have always been aknowledged as the workshop of Britain by a simply staggering amount it was the true "Industrial Heartland"

Largely gone now due to cheap foreign labour with which we can't compete.

 

[jon0844]

There's access to an awful lot more information, yet many kids still can't appreciate the need to question what they're being told and not to believe what they read on social networking sites and biased blogs (or indeed newspapers and TV).

Google, Twitter and Wikipedia are all useful but can all be abused and we can't have a generation that doesn't understand that or history will be rewritten with ease and cause all sorts of problems for the future.

That same advice obviously applies to adults too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at a notable leader of the Labour Party from past days, what was the type of commemorative funeral afforded to Clement Attlee, who ashes are buried in the nave of Westminster Abbey ?

 

[4SRKT]

I don't know, but I do think that politicians, because politics is by its nature partisan, shouldn't be given any special funeral at all. A war leader at the head of an emergency coalition would be an exception I guess. A real war that is, not rejoicing over the deaths of retreating Argentinian sailors (yes youngsters, Thatcher celebrated the deaths of others in public too). Churchill clearly saved the nation, which is one of the reasons why cretins claiming this for Thatcher make me want to puke.

 

[bnm]

Looking at a notable leader of the Labour Party from past days, what was the type of commemorative funeral afforded to Clement Attlee, who ashes are buried in the nave of Westminster Abbey ?

He certainly didn't get a procession with full military honours. Just a private funeral and then his ashes interred at a modest memorial service at Westminster Abbey. Had he died during a recess I doubt very much parliament would have been recalled either.

 

[IanXC]

All the eulogising could've waited until a parliamentary session when MPs were due to return on Monday 15th April.

Which would of course have been only a few days away, and still before the funeral. I'm not sure I'd go for one Labour MP's view though; "I'd rather stick to my dental appointment"!

 

[4SRKT]

Which would of course have been only a few days away, and still before the funeral. I'm not sure I'd go for one Labour MP's view though; "I'd rather stick to my dental appointment"!

He may have very bad toothache you know! But even that might be better than the very bad earache and gutsache he would have after the eulogising I suppose.

 

[Ivo]

Ivo this, Ivo that

I can't even be bothered with this any more. The following quote from Clip pretty much sums up how this thread has gone and in some cases the outlook of a substantial portion of this forum as a whole.

You are not allowed to say anything about the Labour party on here even if it is true, you must know that by now. Irrelevant of the facts.

I may be right-wing, and I may be anti-Labour, but you won't hear me saying this, that or the other about Labour PMs like some of you lot are about Thatcher. If Milliband won the next election I wouldn't be exactly happy, but even if he destroyed every life in the Untied Kingdom you still wouldn't see me going as far as some of you have. (Harperson may be different if she ever gets in )

There has been more than enough evidence in this thread alone that the "destruction of our industrial heartlands" is massively overstated. For one thing, it was by no means a one woman job (Scargill was at least as bad and almost certainly far worse), with much of the already severe decline simply being addressed and giving communities a new direction, and (as Johnuk123 states) a distinctly inaccurate thing to claim anyway.

And for all the fury and all the essays, no-one has yet tackled his central point - that Thatcherism received a 50% approval rating in a credible newspaper poll.

Yes. Because this was really my main point. You could at least have stated this came from a *left-wing* newspaper :roll: [/sarcasm]

 

[4SRKT]

I can't even be bothered with this any more. The following quote from Clip pretty much sums up how this thread has gone and in some cases the outlook of a substantial portion of this forum as a whole.



I may be right-wing, and I may be anti-Labour, but you won't hear me saying this, that or the other about Labour PMs like some of you lot are about Thatcher. If Milliband won the next election I wouldn't be exactly happy, but even if he destroyed every life in the Untied Kingdom you still wouldn't see me going as far as some of you have. (Harperson may be different if she ever gets in )

There has been more than enough evidence in this thread alone that the "destruction of our industrial heartlands" is massively overstated. For one thing, it was by no means a one woman job (Scargill was at least as bad and almost certainly far worse), with much of the already severe decline simply being addressed and giving communities a new direction, and (as Johnuk123 states) a distinctly inaccurate thing to claim anyway.



Yes. Because this was really my main point. You could at least have stated this came from a *left-wing* newspaper :roll:

No it wasn't your main point. You have been gushing on this thread since a couple of hundred posts before anyone mentioned the poll.

Giving communities a new direction? That's a good one. Destruction massively overstated? You hVe genuinely surprised me now that your callousness and stubbornness actually rival your naivete. Well done.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it me...or do I hear the massed ranks of the RailUK forums male voice choir singing "The Internationale" in pitch-perfect harmony...

 

[4SRKT]

Ivo's a bit out of tune and Clip hasn't shown up today, but yes, I think you may well hear that....

 

[Oswyntail]

To go back to the Thatcher/Railways question. Yes, she disliked the industry, mainly because she saw it as over-unionised and unwilling to consider reform, leaving the country vulnerable to crippling strike action. Fortunately, the industry proved more flexible.
However, she did recognise that a modern rail system was vital to the economy (more so than other "essential" industries), and (IIRC) personally vetoed Serpell and other proposals to cut back the network. It is hard to imagine for some, but she was also aware of the perils and difficulty of privatisation, and so it was only after her moderating influence (Yes!) was removed that the zealots felt they could consider it.
As in most aspects of political life, the truth is a complex picture.

 

[4SRKT]

To go back to the Thatcher/Railways question. Yes, she disliked the industry, mainly because she saw it as over-unionised and unwilling to consider reform, leaving the country vulnerable to crippling strike action. Fortunately, the industry proved more flexible.
However, she did recognise that a modern rail system was vital to the economy (more so than other "essential" industries), and (IIRC) personally vetoed Serpell and other proposals to cut back the network. It is hard to imagine for some, but she was also aware of the perils and difficulty of privatisation, and so it was only after her moderating influence (Yes!) was removed that the zealots felt they could consider it.
As in most aspects of political life, the truth is a complex picture.

Are there REAlLY people who think Thatcher privatised the railways?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Is anyone travelling down or upto London for her service on the 17th ?

 

[4SRKT]

Is anyone travelling down or upto London for her service on the 17th ?

Hmmm. No.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Nope. But rumour is there is a song shooting up the charts that I may buy. I would rather spend my money that!

 

[jon0844]

To get to number one these days you hardly need to sell much, but fair play to the person who is trying to make a few quid from her death. It's the capitalist way and Maggie would no doubt be proud!

 

[sonorguy]

Why is more not being made of this in the media as a riposte to the myth that Thatcher was solely responsible.

Has anyone heard a comment from "Brother Arthur" yet - he seems to have been very quiet

My boss was on a speed awareness course with Scargill during his legal 'difficulties' with the NUM a couple of years ago.

All he could talk about was how it was unfair that he couldn't have a funded flat for life (despite being partly responsible for all those people he misled during the miner's strike's crashing poverty during that period) and that he spent half of his time at his villa in France.

Socialism and fraternity are wonderful when they work for you, aren't they?

My boss, a very traditional left winger from working class Yorkshire stock, said he came across extremely badly.